The Paranymphos!

[twinc]

On another thread it has been suggested that Mary had other children besides Jesus.Seeing as it seems that Joseph died early in Jesus’s childhood possibly when Jesus was 13 or 14 who would have been the bread winner and guardian and protector of Mary and this large family - an answer has been suggested but what is your answer - twinc

 

[Tantum_ergo]

On another thread it has been suggested that Mary had other children besides Jesus.Seeing as it seems that Joseph died early in Jesus’s childhood possibly when Jesus was 13 or 14 who would have been the bread winner and guardian and protector of Mary and this large family - an answer has been suggested but what is your answer - twinc

My answer is simple --Mary had no other children besides Jesus !

Case closed.

 

[John7]

On another thread it has been suggested that Mary had other children besides Jesus.Seeing as it seems that Joseph died early in Jesus’s childhood possibly when Jesus was 13 or 14 who would have been the bread winner and guardian and protector of Mary and this large family - an answer has been suggested but what is your answer - twinc

by the way, how are you translating ‘paranymphos’ ?

 

[Mark77]

**Jesus had no biological brothers or sisters. Perhaps He had step brothers or even cousins, who were called brothers in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke.

As a devout Jew, if Jesus had any brothers, He never would have said to John, while dying on the Cross;

“Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.” (JN 19:27).
**
Santca Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[thistle]

On another thread it has been suggested that Mary had other children besides Jesus.**Seeing as it seems that Joseph died early in Jesus’s childhood possibly when Jesus was 13 or 14 **who would have been the bread winner and guardian and protector of Mary and this large family - an answer has been suggested but what is your answer - twinc

Other than wild speculation as usual from your side what evidence is there to support this assertion.

By the way, if you are truly a Catholic there is little point in debating whether Mary had other children. You know she did NOT. That is dogma. End of story.

 

[twinc]

Other than wild speculation as usual from your side what evidence is there to support this assertion.

By the way, if you are truly a Catholic there is little point in debating whether Mary had other children. You know she did NOT. That is dogma. End of story.

End of your story as this one is about a paranymphos even in the case of just Jesus and Mary - twinc

 

[thistle]

End of your story as this one is about a paranymphos even in the case of just Jesus and Mary - twinc

So again as usual you don’t like giving answers to questions!

Its very simple. Mary had no other children. She was a perpetual virgin. That is dogma.
So there is little point in speculating about anything which would call for that to be untrue.

 

[twinc]

Other than wild speculation as usual from your side what evidence is there to support this assertion.

By the way, if you are truly a Catholic there is little point in debating whether Mary had other children. You know she did NOT. That is dogma. End of story.

please reread the question as it is not about Mary having other children but about a paranymphos for the Holy Family because of the early demise of Joseph the spouse of Mary and guardian of the H oly Family I cannot understand how and why you misconstrue and misinterpret - twinc

 

[centurionguard]

please reread the question as it is not about Mary having other children but about a paranymphos for the Holy Family because of the early demise of Joseph the spouse of Mary and guardian of the H oly Family I cannot understand how and why you misconstrue and misinterpret - twinc

No disrespect but maybe you should elaborate your view point in depth.

During the time of the Blessed Virgin’s Marriage with her guardian and Spouse Joseph, they both took a vow of Chasity between themselves. They had no children.

 

[JimmyBru]

On another thread it has been suggested that Mary had other children besides Jesus.Seeing as it seems that Joseph died early in Jesus’s childhood possibly when Jesus was 13 or 14 who would have been the bread winner and guardian and protector of Mary and this large family - an answer has been suggested but what is your answer - twinc

Well, just because it was suggested in another thread that Mary had other children, doesn’t mean it is fact. Dogma states the perpetual virginity of Mother Mary. Many scholars and theologians have poured over the evidence and the conclusion has been stated and realized in a dogmatic statement. To the Catholic, this is enough and no speculation as to the contrary is warranted.

As to the paranymphos - a definition of how you understand that term would be helpful. In all my research this is understood as a sponsor who speaks as a link between the community and the betrothed, either for the bride and the groom or both. Sort of a Bridesmaid or Best man, but not quite. They definitely would not take over as a bread winner. The survival of a Jewish family in that time would depend on the eldest son.

Now, since we have established that Mary had no other children besides Jesus, she would have been dependent on herself and Jesus. If Jesus was 13 or 14, he would have been able to work and ‘bring home the bread’ so to speak. Joseph was a capable and dedicated father and would have prepared for such a situation.

If they were living among relatives, it stands to reason that if there was any lacking of food or such, there would have been support from the cousins and kin around. We live in an individualistic society and unfortunately don’t have much contact with cousins and such. In the culture of that day, there was a familial community who was much aware of all needs of each other.

I think we need to keep the society of that day in mind when we ponder questions such as these. Our electronic age doesn’t translate well into an agrarian setting.

I hope this rambling lends some help to your perusal of Mary’s life after Joseph.

God Bless

 

[centurionguard]

Archbishop Fulton Sheen in speaking about the Perpetual Virginity of Mary the Immaculate Conception; an ancient poet said with servility of Caesar Augustus (“First Ruler of Rome”), that he was himself the predestined work of several ages, and that, since the days of the founding creation of this world, all the industry of historic nature had been put forward in request to produce him. What was a hyperbole carried to an absurd length, in speaking of the sanguinary nephew of Caesar, becomes a truth demonstrated when applied to the Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Conception. Mary is God’s masterpiece in nature, the flower of the old generations, and the wonder of ages. Never had the earth seen, and never will the earth see, so many perfections combined in a simple daughter of men. She is all grace, holiness, grandeur in this blessed creation, sanctified in friendship with God, and even in His mind and heart even before her physical birth she was sanctified.

She knew not the passions which disorder the soul, and sin which corrupts the heart. Attracted towards good by a sweet and natural inclination, by favor of her Immaculate Conception, her pure and innocent actions were like those coats of snow which are silently heaped upon the lofty summits of the mountains, adding purity to purity, and whiteness to whiteness, till a dazzling cone is raised on which the light darts playfully, and which forces mankind to turn away their eyes, like the brightness of the sun. The Immaculate soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary; has not been given to any second creature to present such a life in to the sovereign Judge of men; Jesus Christ alone surpasses her. But then Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

 

[twinc]

No disrespect but maybe you should elaborate your view point in depth.

During the time of the Blessed Virgin’s Marriage with her guardian and Spouse Joseph, they both took a vow of Chasity between themselves. They had no children.

for sure as Catholics we know this or should know - so please reread the question and comment - twinc

 

[twinc]

Well, just because it was suggested in another thread that Mary had other children, doesn’t mean it is fact. Dogma states the perpetual virginity of Mother Mary. Many scholars and theologians have poured over the evidence and the conclusion has been stated and realized in a dogmatic statement. To the Catholic, this is enough and no speculation as to the contrary is warranted.

As to the paranymphos - a definition of how you understand that term would be helpful. In all my research this is understood as a sponsor who speaks as a link between the community and the betrothed, either for the bride and the groom or both. Sort of a Bridesmaid or Best man, but not quite. They definitely would not take over as a bread winner. The survival of a Jewish family in that time would depend on the eldest son.

Now, since we have established that Mary had no other children besides Jesus, she would have been dependent on herself and Jesus. If Jesus was 13 or 14, he would have been able to work and ‘bring home the bread’ so to speak. Joseph was a capable and dedicated father and would have prepared for such a situation.

If they were living among relatives, it stands to reason that if there was any lacking of food or such, there would have been support from the cousins and kin around. We live in an individualistic society and unfortunately don’t have much contact with cousins and such. In the culture of that day, there was a familial community who was much aware of all needs of each other.

I think we need to keep the society of that day in mind when we ponder questions such as these. Our electronic age doesn’t translate well into an agrarian setting.

I hope this rambling lends some help to your perusal of Mary’s life after Joseph.

God Bless

 

[twinc]

twinc:
perhaps you presume that the blindness lies with me - so now if Mary was already being provided for why bother to disrupt the cosy arrangement and give her to John which in itself would be the cause of a scandal of the first magnitude- twinc

 

[twinc]

**Jesus had no biological brothers or sisters. Perhaps He had step brothers or even cousins, who were called brothers in Aramaic, the language Jesus spoke.

As a devout Jew, if Jesus had any brothers, He never would have said to John, while dying on the Cross;
**
“Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!” And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.” (JN 19:27).

Santca Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

which Bible are you quoting from !? - twinc

 

[Tantum_ergo]

perhaps you presume that the blindness lies with me - so now if Mary was already being provided for why bother to disrupt the cosy arrangement and give her to John which in itself would be the cause of a scandal of the first magnitude- twinc

You know, it might help those of us trying to chat with you if you’d stop being all on the defensive over being addressed on something you yourself brought up.

In your very first post, dear twinc, you said this:

On another thread it has been suggested that Mary had other children besides Jesus.Seeing as it seems that Joseph died early in Jesus’s childhood possibly when Jesus was 13 or 14 who would have been the bread winner and guardian and protector of Mary and this large family - an answer has been suggested but what is your answer - twinc

You yourself --you twinc–thus have the appearance of supporting the idea of Mary and this ‘large family’. Your own ambiguity and lack of clearly setting forth that you personally did not believe in the ‘other children of Mary’ has caused people to address that very basic ‘error’ from the start.

Why not simply say,

"Gosh, sorry people. What I meant to say was that as Catholics we know Mary had no other children than Jesus, but for those nonCatholics who think Mary had other children, consider then who the guardian for Mary would be. . .could it possibly be a paranymphos? "

That way you have made it clear that you do not believe in the erroneous teaching of those who state Mary had other children, yet you have opened up the question which it appears was what you wanted to discuss.

 

[twinc]

You know, it might help those of us trying to chat with you if you’d stop being all on the defensive over being addressed on something you yourself brought up.

In your very first post, dear twinc, you said this:

You yourself --you twinc–thus have the appearance of supporting the idea of Mary and this ‘large family’. Your own ambiguity and lack of clearly setting forth that you personally did not believe in the ‘other children of Mary’ has caused people to address that very basic ‘error’ from the start.

Why not simply say,

"Gosh, sorry people. What I meant to say was that as Catholics we know Mary had no other children than Jesus, but for those nonCatholics who think Mary had other children, consider then who the guardian for Mary would be. . .could it possibly be a paranymphos? "

That way you have made it clear that you do not believe in the erroneous teaching of those who state Mary had other children, yet you have opened up the question which it appears was what you wanted to discuss.

not at all,at all,at all,you jumped to conclusions when you should have realised that even one woman and child warrant helf and protection especially when on their own - twinc

 

[Tantum_ergo]

not at all,at all,at all,you jumped to conclusions when you should have realised that even one woman and child warrant helf and protection especially when on their own - twinc

Sorry, sugah, but nobody ‘jumped to conclusions’ here but you.

I was not the only one who addressed this point. Your words did not seem at all to clearly indicate that you personally did not feel that Mary had no children other than Jesus. (Note that I say ‘clearly.’) When people, noting that it did not seem clear that you (personally) did not likewise think it possible that Mary had other children, addressed that, you did not say, "Oh, but I didn’t mean that. . .sorry for the confusion’. . .no, you JUMPED onto other posters “OH, how COULD you have misinterpreted my golden words, oh stop addressing that”.

Want to even consider the possibility that you could have phrased your topic more clearly? Even now, you don’t seem to be considering anything other than it was ‘our fault’ for misunderstanding you, not that you could possibly have had any ‘lack’ in your words. That kind of attitude doesn’t auger very well for a dialogue.

Look, I don’t mean to be rude. You see, I can acknowledge that, even when I try to be clear, and ‘compassionate’, I can fall short. And if I make an error, I’m grateful to people for pointing it out even if they do so to ‘my’ mind in a way I don’t like. And I’ll move on. Because we all make mistakes, and all we need to do is say, sorry, acknowledge, and move ON, instead of trying to cast all the blame onto others.

I’m sorry if I didn’t understand you the way you wanted to be understood. . .but I do think your attitude when questioned is (at least here) going to cause you a lot of problems if every difficulty you encounter is always because ‘other people’ didn’t understand YOU and you never admit that there could be a possibility that it is YOU who do not understand THEM.

Best wishes.

 

[JimmyBru]

perhaps you presume that the blindness lies with me - so now if Mary was already being provided for why bother to disrupt the cosy arrangement and give her to John which in itself would be the cause of a scandal of the first magnitude- twinc

No scandal of any magnitude here. The provision of Mary as she and Jesus aged would have fluctuated certainly, but not have been unbearable. She still would have had cousins. If you are thinking of a cozy arrangement where she did nothing and waited for sustenance and comfort, this is not how people lived in those days. I imagine Mary as a strong woman with much courage and initiative. "Giving’ her to John was not by any means a sense of ownership or anything, but rather again a familial relationship. John would now think of her as his mother and Mary would think John as her son, where is the scandal in that? (This handing over actually supports the fact that Jesus had no other brothers or sisters)

The bigger picture of that exchange is that we can put ourselves in the place of John. We are now an adopted brother or sister of Christ! And our Heavenly mother is Mary!

I don’t presume any blindness on your part, but rather once again wonder as to what your definition of paranymphos is and where it is supposed to lead us in conversation? Please expand on this for me and I may be able ascertain a direction of thought.

Much blessings,

 

[twinc]

No scandal of any magnitude here. The provision of Mary as she and Jesus aged would have fluctuated certainly, but not have been unbearable. She still would have had cousins. If you are thinking of a cozy arrangement where she did nothing and waited for sustenance and comfort, this is not how people lived in those days. I imagine Mary as a strong woman with much courage and initiative. "Giving’ her to John was not by any means a sense of ownership or anything, but rather again a familial relationship. John would now think of her as his mother and Mary would think John as her son, where is the scandal in that? (This handing over actually supports the fact that Jesus had no other brothers or sisters)

The bigger picture of that exchange is that we can put ourselves in the place of John. We are now an adopted brother or sister of Christ! And our Heavenly mother is Mary!

I don’t presume any blindness on your part, but rather once again wonder as to what your definition of paranymphos is and where it is supposed to lead us in conversation? Please expand on this for me and I may be able ascertain a direction of thought.

Much blessings,

here again presumptions and imaginations run riot viz "John would think thus and so and so would Mary and what we would or might think is not the point.It is what the Jews would have thought that matters - Paranymphos signifies a guardian,protector etc in the main an elder for a younger and not the other way around,like a rich,reliable Uncle every family hopes they could have to rely on in their hour of need - twinc