The Perfection of Jesus (break out your Bible!)

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jimmy:
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The genesis one is supposed to be a prophesy of Jesus and Mary. The Romans quote clearly refers back to that.

In order to have true enmity between the woman and the serpant(satan), she had to be completely free from him. The only way she could be free from satan would be if she did not sin and was not attached to sin like everyone else is.

In Luke 1 Mary is visited by the angel Gabriel.

The angel greats her as Hail full of Grace. It is her title or name that he uses for her. For this to be true she had to be perfect because what it means to be “Full of Grace”. To be full of grace she must have been empty of every sin. No one else in the bible is ever refered to in this way.
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Thanks, I’m here to learn! 👍
 
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AnthonyJ:
I have difficulty believing that 3 separate Catholics or even one Catholic for that matter said that Jesus sinned but the Virgin Mary never sinned. It would be a more believable error for them to have said that they both sinned. It seems like you are using this as a way to prove that we Catholics believe Mary is greater than Christ. By the way, the true answer is that both Christ and Mary never sinned. As for both Mary and Christ being perfect, I know Christ is, but does the Church teach Mary is also? Does perfection equate with sinlessness? I didn’t think they were the same thing.

In Christ,
Anthony
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You are correct. I probably should not have used the word perfect. They were both sinless though.
 
Lisa,

I am sorry that you have been mislead on what Catholics believe. I find that most of the beefs that Protestants have with Catholics is based on misinformation and misunderstanding. It is unfortunate that Catholics gave you this misinformation. They are obviously uneducated in their faith. If you have any questions as to what Christs Church here on earth, the Catholic Church, really teaches, I recommend you get it straight from the horses mouth (the Cathechism). 👍

And I am sorry that you don’t have a complete Bible. We can thank the reformmers that there are so many Bibles out there with missing pages.

God Bless You Lisa and I hope you find all of the answers you are looking for on your journey. 😃
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JesusFreak16:
Would you please provide me with some scripture that supports that Mary was perfect?
Oh, and please use examples from the Bible that I will be able to look up (I don’t have a Catholic bible).

God’s Peace~
Lisa
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JesusFreak16:
Would you please provide me with some scripture that supports that Mary was perfect?
Oh, and please use examples from the Bible that I will be able to look up (I don’t have a Catholic bible).

God’s Peace~
Lisa
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You certainly like to switch from one topic to the next don’t ya!

You started a thread based on your assumption that you think the Catholic Church teaches that Jesus sinned. We pointed out that you were mistaken and without hardly taking a breath your onto whether or not Mary sinned!

At least acknowledge your mistake before you go on your next attack! That is just common courtesy. 🙂
 
I wonder, is this thread drifting, all by itself, into the doctrine of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, or is the original poster using a rather ham-fisted bait-and-switch?

If the first, then the question has been answered sufficiently. The Catholic Church has always upheld the sinlessness of Jesus’s human nature.

If the second, shame on you.

In either case, questions about Mary’s sinlessness really ought to be posed in a thread of their own.

Justin
 
Ok folks, where is our Christian Charity!!!

I don’t know if JesusFreak is sincere or not, but I don’t think anything said here has merited the bashing I’m seeing. Christ has called us to love one another, even our Enemy. We will convince far more of the Truth if we speak in Charity than we ever can if we bash and dash.

Remember please, that even if you believe JesusFreak has no interest in the Truth, there will be others who don’t choose to post their own, similar questions who are reading our responses. They can learn Truth through the obvious witness we give to Christ’s love or they can see the demons of our pride biting another soul in the butt.

Please remember to say a quick prayer before you send a message so that you speak for Him rather than for yourself when supposedly speaking on matters of Faith and Morals. We may not be blessed with infallibility, but we can certainly be prudent and attempt to do our best.

CARose
 
Perhaps it would have been better if the starter of this thread had researched, from reputable catholic sources, what catholics believe, before starting this thread. This sort of research takes minutes but generally eradicates the desire for these threads.

Perhaps there really are “catholics” who say Jesus sinned - but I’ve not met one yet. If they do say this then they’ve obviously slept through every single mass they’ve ever been to or they might have caught on to the truth. Jesusfreak16 needs to inform these people that catholicism does not teach that Jesus sinned but that he was and is sinless. Then they can learn the truth for themselves from catholic sources.

Blessings

Asteroid
 
Would you please provide me with some scripture that supports that Mary was perfect?
Oh, and please use examples from the Bible that I will be able to look up (I don’t have a Catholic bible).
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Lisa,

In the Liturgy of the Church, this passage from Song of Songs is reffered to Mary, Ever Virgin.

"You are all-beautiful, my beloved,
and there is no blemish in you." (Song of Songs 4:7)

Another passage:

"I was sleeping, but my heart kept vigil;
I heard my lover knocking:
"Open to me, my sister, my beloved,
my dove, my perfect one!" (Song of Songs 5:2)
Beside this, Mary was announced by Archangel Gabriel to be the Mother of God. He says, “Hail, full of grace!” Mary is full of grace, and was protected by God from sin since the time of her birth. Protestants argue that if that’s the case, then she didn’t need a Saviour and that would mean as contradiction with Scriptures that everyone needs a Saviour. The Catholic answer is–She was saved by God in advance for her role in becoming the Mother of the Second Person of the Trinity.

The Second Person of the Trinity became Man. This is the Catholic Faith. His Flesh comes from the flesh of Mary as well as His bones come from the bones of Mary. The God-Man cannot in any way partake from a human being that has a sinful flesh. Mary was the perfect one to carry him in her womb and thus became flesh thru her.

Pax Vobiscum,

Pio
 
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hlgomez:
Mary was announced by Archangel Gabriel to be the Mother of God. He says, “Hail, full of grace!” Mary is full of grace, and was protected by God from sin since the time of her birth.
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if we then jump to the gospel of john, he describes the word made flesh (Jesus) as being “full of grace and truth”. in my knowledge, they are the only two described as being “full of grace”. that should throw a flag into the air and make us wonder why mary was so honored to be called the same thing that Jesus would eventually be described as. not that she is our saviour, but that she was gifted by God to be full of grace.
 
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JesusFreak16:
They told me that Jesus sinned and that Mary was perfect. Do you disagree with both or just that Jesus wasn’t perfect?

God’s Peace~
Lisa
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Your friends appear uninformed regarding Faith, the Bible, the Church, etc. May I ask, are these friends children?

Please direct them to the Bible and to CCC, both available on line. They should also seek out instruction from their Priest.

Kelly
 
Starting a thread with the statement that Jesus sinned is a very strange way of opening a discussion which apparently was intended to be about Mary.
 
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1962Missal:
I wonder, is this thread drifting, all by itself, into the doctrine of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, or is the original poster using a rather ham-fisted bait-and-switch?

If the first, then the question has been answered sufficiently. The Catholic Church has always upheld the sinlessness of Jesus’s human nature.

If the second, shame on you.
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I vote for the second, because the original post is a common set-up question to attacking the Immaculate Conception. “What has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done; and there is nothing new under the sun.” (Ec 1:9)

There was a thread here not long ago on peoples experience with anti-Catholics using duplicitous tactics to proselytize. Here is yet another example. As Star Trek’s Lt. Worf might say “Anti-Catholics are without honor.”
 
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Fidelis:
As Star Trek’s Lt. Worf might say “Anti-Catholics are without honor.”
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and trekkies (or trekkers as you seem to be) are nerds. just kidding, i like my star trek from time to time. why do we care what the motives of starting the thread were? just answer the questions with love and leave them to be judged. it’s not up to us to change others, God does that. we are to simply be His ambassadors.
 
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bengal_fan:
and trekkies (or trekkers as you seem to be) are nerds. just kidding, i like my star trek from time to time. why do we care what the motives of starting the thread were? just answer the questions with love and leave them to be judged. it’s not up to us to change others, God does that. we are to simply be His ambassadors.
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I agree to a point. All questions should be answered in good faith for the simple reason that there may be lurkers reading who want to know. BUT, it is also important to point out the rank, condescending attitude (i.e. that Catholics are unworthy or too unintelligent for a straight, no games rational discourse) some have for Christ’s church and members. “You shall know them by their fruits.”

Scott
 
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bengal_fan:
and trekkies (or trekkers as you seem to be) are nerds. just kidding, i like my star trek from time to time. why do we care what the motives of starting the thread were? just answer the questions with love and leave them to be judged. it’s not up to us to change others, God does that. we are to simply be His ambassadors.
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Oh, I agree. But asking questions is different than coming here spoiling for an argument which Lisa has a history of doing. Jesus impressed upon his disciples the need to recognize the difference. We should do no less.
 
posted by asteroid
Perhaps it would have been better if the starter of this thread had researched, from reputable catholic sources, what catholics believe, before starting this thread. This sort of research takes minutes but generally eradicates the desire for these threads.
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That is assuming knowledge that they may not have. How can a person judge a reputable source when they have no knowledge to begin with. Frequently, when a person has a question and types in key Scripture from the Bible, it pops up with Anti-Catholic sites.

And some are better than others at searching for things on-line. When I first came to this site, frankly, I did very little stuff on-line. Even now, my computer and search expertise is very low. Just because I can use a computer, doesn’t mean I know how to use it better than my kids!
 
This is a good point that I feel needs to be reiterated.
Posted by Bengal Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hlgomez
*Mary was announced by Archangel Gabriel to be the Mother of God. He says, “Hail, full of grace!” Mary is full of grace, and was protected by God from sin since the time of her birth.
*
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if we then jump to the gospel of john, he describes the word made flesh (Jesus) as being “full of grace and truth”. in my knowledge, they are the only two described as being “full of grace”. that should throw a flag into the air and make us wonder why mary was so honored to be called the same thing that Jesus would eventually be described as. not that she is our saviour, but that she was gifted by God to be full of grace.
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It should definitely make a person wonder why Mary was so honored to be called the same thing that Jesus eventually was described as, Full of Grace.
 
Just to re-itrate: We Catholics believe that in the course of human history, there had only been (and always will be) but two individuals who were without sins – Jesus, the Man-God, and Mary, His most holy Mother. So there. 👍

“I will put enmity between you [the Devil] and the Woman.”

Tell me, would you call bound by sin is having an enmity with sin?
 
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JesusFreak16:
Would you please provide me with some scripture that supports that Mary was perfect?
Oh, and please use examples from the Bible that I will be able to look up (I don’t have a Catholic bible).

God’s Peace~
Lisa
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I also like:
Exodus 25:11-16 (among others) wherein God commands that the ark (which is to carry the Word of God) to be made of pure (purest, ceremonially, morally, physically) gold within and without.
 
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