The Perfection of Jesus (break out your Bible!)

[rschermer2]

JesusFreak16:

If you re-read my post, you’ll see that I changed it once I realized hwat you were referring to.

God’s Peace~
Lisa

Lisa,

Please tell us why anyone should re-read something, you refuse to re-examine what people tell you about the Catholic teaching.

rschermer

 

[ahimsaman72]

rschermer2:

Lisa,

Don’t worry, you don’t need the Real Bible to be able to see the Scriptural evidence of Mary’s sinlessness, you can even use a Protestant abridged version that is unless they have changed it again and threw out some other books that don’t jive with their teaching.

Protestant abridged version…threw out some…don’t jive with their teaching. Boy oh boy. where do you guys get this stuff?

 

[ahimsaman72]

rschermer2:

Lisa,

Can you show me scripturally where Jesus insisted that His Church be devided?

rschermer

You don’t pull any punches, do you? And a newby at that!

 

[AnthonyJ]

I think she is lying and there were never 3 Catholic friends to begin with. It sounds very far fetched that one Catholic let alone three would say something so assinine.

rschermer2:

Lisa,

You know it isn’t very Christianly to lie. Given what you say about these ‘3 Catholic friends’ of yours I’m starting to think you either made them up or maybe they aren’t Catholic at all. You are being ridiculous, if you can give me one single legitimate Catholic writer who ever said Jesus sinned and Mary was perfect I would like you to, otherwise don’t believe your ‘3 Catholic friends’ because they are either lying or stupid.

rschermer

 

[Corpus_Cristi]

Corpus Cristi:

JesusFreak16, if you can, can you post EXACTLY what your Catholic friends told you? If you can, or at least post a very close variation of what they said because I have the feeling that they didn’t say what you’re saying they said. There are a lot of things that Catholics say that Protestants turn around in an argument, or anywhere else. There are lots of things that people say that can be taken the wrong way or falsely paraphrased. Another thing to factor into this is that Catholics use words in a different way than protestants do sometimes, and Catholics use different speech than protestants do sometimes. It’s not hard to take something the wrong way when you hear something that you mistake for something else. If they did outrightlly say this, then they’re wrong. If they didn’t and they said something else, and you paraphrased what they said to mean something false, then we could be tangled up in something that wasn’t even there. I’m not saying that you did it inadvertantly, or on purpose, much less than you even did do this thing, I’m just asking if this is the case. From experience, I kinda have intuition . . .

I would like for you to answer my question.

 

[rschermer2]

Protestant abridged version…threw out some…don’t jive with their teaching. Boy oh boy. where do you guys get this stuff?

My friend,

First of all we get it from learning history but really, my answer was written in such a sarcastic form because of the way that Lisa inferred that the Catholic Bible is incorrect.

God Bless,
rschermer

 

[rschermer2]

ahimsaman72:

Even as a baptist I can tell you that the catholic teaching is not what you have described. That’s really a ludicrous statement. As a matter of fact, I don’t know of any mainline protestant denomination that would say He sinned either. Heretical!

Thanks for trying to set Lisa straight, I applaud you. I will warn you though that people like Lisa will still repeat the ‘lie’ no matter how many Catholics or Protestants tell her it is ridiculous.

Why? Because she needs our prayers.

God Bless,
rschermer

 

[ahimsaman72]

rschermer2:

My friend,

First of all we get it from learning history but really, my answer was written in such a sarcastic form because of the way that Lisa inferred that the Catholic Bible is incorrect.

God Bless,
rschermer

I understand my friend. I just noticed that on a couple of your posts there was a tendency to debase a protestant position when it didn’t matter either way. I’m a baptist myself.

The topic of the canon of the Bible and the deutero’s have been debated on other threads. Some really good points both ways. Personally, I’ve always accepted the Catholic Bible. I look at the deutero’s as profitable, just not authoritative, but then again, I’ve been wrong before.

 

[rschermer2]

Protestant abridged version…threw out some…don’t jive with their teaching. Boy oh boy. where do you guys get this stuff?

I apologize for my harshness but sometimes the Anti-Catholics frustrate me to the point of lashing out.

I will stand by my comments regarding books being thrown out of the bible. It was Luther who did this and he even considered discarding the Letter of James because of the ‘faith without works is dead’ verse. That didn’t jive with his teaching.

I know all about the different OT’s, the Greek or Septuigant (sp?) and the Hebrew version, the one with the Maccabbees and some chapters of Daniel etc. The problem arises with the fact that the Church had already authoritatively decided to use the Greek text when the Jewish council (who no longer had authority since Christ gave authority to His Church) decided that the Greek was not acceptable. Then hundreds and hundreds of years later Luther reaches back into history to pull out the Jewish councils findings in order to justify his scrapping of the Greek text. He had to you see because one major teaching that he opposed (due to abuses by some clergy, bishops etc.) was the teaching of purgatory and prayers for the dead. The Maccabbees books provide evidence that this is a true teaching.

God Bless,
rschermer

 

[ahimsaman72]

rschermer2:

Thanks for trying to set Lisa straight, I applaud you. I will warn you though that people like Lisa will still repeat the ‘lie’ no matter how many Catholics or Protestants tell her it is ridiculous.

Why? Because she needs our prayers.

God Bless,
rschermer

Actually, I couldn’t believe what she said! Here’s an honest encounter I had with a co-worker: I told a co-worker that I wasn’t perfect like Jesus and she said, “Well, Jesus wasn’t perfect either, the Bible says he wasn’t.” I was floored. I asked where it said that in the Bible. Her answer: “I don’t know. It’s in there somewhere.”

I assured her that Jesus was perfect and sinless in all ways. And when I saw this person’s post here I was immediately drawn back to that encounter with a co-worker. I became angry.

I love Christ and can’t stand it when someone throws dirt in His face. He’s far too great for that. I know you would agree.

Well, what’s amazing to me also is how many people just don’t try to find out for themselves what a church teaches, they will just go by what a person says.

 

[rschermer2]

ahimsaman72:

You don’t pull any punches, do you? And a newby at that!

ahimsaman,

I like you, even though I’ve been harsh you respond with kindness and humour. You are truly blessed.

Once again I find myself apologizing for my harshness. Although, I didn’t think this particular question was harsh, it was simply a question like I’ve gotten so often from my protestant brothers so I thought it would be ironic in this case that I had to use it.

Peace,
rschermer

 

[rschermer2]

ahimsaman72:

I understand my friend. I just noticed that on a couple of your posts there was a tendency to debase a protestant position when it didn’t matter either way. I’m a baptist myself.

The topic of the canon of the Bible and the deutero’s have been debated on other threads. Some really good points both ways. Personally, I’ve always accepted the Catholic Bible. I look at the deutero’s as profitable, just not authoritative, but then again, I’ve been wrong before.

You’re right about this discussion being for another thread. I apologize and will try to stay on topic.

Pax Christi,
rschermer

 

[ahimsaman72]

rschermer2:

I apologize for my harshness but sometimes the Anti-Catholics frustrate me to the point of lashing out.

I will stand by my comments regarding books being thrown out of the bible. It was Luther who did this and he even considered discarding the Letter of James because of the ‘faith without works is dead’ verse. That didn’t jive with his teaching.

I know all about the different OT’s, the Greek or Septuigant (sp?) and the Hebrew version, the one with the Maccabbees and some chapters of Daniel etc. The problem arises with the fact that the Church had already authoritatively decided to use the Greek text when the Jewish council (who no longer had authority since Christ gave authority to His Church) decided that the Greek was not acceptable. Then hundreds and hundreds of years later Luther reaches back into history to pull out the Jewish councils findings in order to justify his scrapping of the Greek text. He had to you see because one major teaching that he opposed (due to abuses by some clergy, bishops etc.) was the teaching of purgatory and prayers for the dead. The Maccabbees books provide evidence that this is a true teaching.

God Bless,
rschermer

No need to apologize friend. I was giving you a hard time.

What’s weird though is that if you go to some of Luther’s other writings, he had a pretty harsh view of Jews. It’s hard for me to figure out why he would therefore choose to take Jewish councils findings. Anyway, I know that’s off topic, but threw that out there.
He wrote a book about Jews, “On the Jews and their Lies”. Pretty hard-core.

 

[ContraFool]

Well thank you very much for clearly stating a commonly held Christian belief…But what is your point? You won’t get a Catholic to disagree with you about this. If they do, then they are not in agreement with the official position of the Church.

JesusFreak16:

Here goes.

“The Father and I are one,” Jesus said in John 10:30
If God and Jesus were one and Jesus sinned, then God sinned.

He was declared innocent 11 times.

• Six times by Pilate (Matthew 27:24; Luke 23:14, 22; John 18:38; 19:4, 6)
  -Once by Herod (Luke 23:15)
  -Once by Pilate’s wife (Matthew 27:19)
  -Once by the repentant thief (Luke 23:41)
  -Once by a Roman centurian (Matthew 27:54)
  -Once by Judas (Matthew 27:4)

More:
Peter said, “He [Jesus] never sinned.” (1 Peter 2:22)
John said, “And you know that Jesus came to take away our sins, for there is no sin in Him.” (1 John 3 :5)
Paul also said,“For God made Christ, who never sinned, to be the offering for our sin, so that we could be made right with God through Christ.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

Bring it on! :tiphat:

God’s Peace~
Lisa

 

[rschermer2]

ahimsaman72:

Actually, I couldn’t believe what she said! Here’s an honest encounter I had with a co-worker: I told a co-worker that I wasn’t perfect like Jesus and she said, “Well, Jesus wasn’t perfect either, the Bible says he wasn’t.” I was floored. I asked where it said that in the Bible. Her answer: “I don’t know. It’s in there somewhere.”

I assured her that Jesus was perfect and sinless in all ways. And when I saw this person’s post here I was immediately drawn back to that encounter with a co-worker. I became angry.

I love Christ and can’t stand it when someone throws dirt in His face. He’s far too great for that. I know you would agree.

Well, what’s amazing to me also is how many people just don’t try to find out for themselves what a church teaches, they will just go by what a person says.

AMEN!!!

I sure hope the person you were talking to wasn’t a Catholic, don’t get me wrong, I don’t sit here and presume that every Catholic is well versed in the teachings of the Church. It is a sad fact that many many Catholics do what they want and ignore Church teaching but justify it somehow. I’m sure that goes on the protestant world too.

God Bless,
rschermer

 

[ahimsaman72]

rschermer2:

ahimsaman,

I like you, even though I’ve been harsh you respond with kindness and humour. You are truly blessed.

Once again I find myself apologizing for my harshness. Although, I didn’t think this particular question was harsh, it was simply a question like I’ve gotten so often from my protestant brothers so I thought it would be ironic in this case that I had to use it.

Peace,
rschermer

Thank you for your kindness. Unfortunately, as others can attest to I’ve not always been so nice. I can be too head strong and “speak” harshly.

No, no don’t apologize. I admire your zeal for your faith. If only others had so much zeal for their faith! You remind me of dear St. Peter or St. Paul.

I know you’ve probably gotten an “earfull” of things hurled your way by my protestant brothers. Sadly, I’ve fallen into that here also, just ask Maccabees. Just so you know, I almost converted here recently, but due to many reasons, theological and personal I did not begin RCIA this fall.

I still leave the option open for the future, but I have many issues to wade through if I ever do that.

God bless.

 

[rschermer2]

ahimsaman72:

No need to apologize friend. I was giving you a hard time.

What’s weird though is that if you go to some of Luther’s other writings, he had a pretty harsh view of Jews. It’s hard for me to figure out why he would therefore choose to take Jewish councils findings. Anyway, I know that’s off topic, but threw that out there.
He wrote a book about Jews, “On the Jews and their Lies”. Pretty hard-core.

I know its for another string but I have to say that Luther can’t be all to blame I imagine the Church at the time held some pretty harsh views of the Jews. It is an unfortunate part of Church history that we so hated the very religion that Jesus Himself followed. And the very people that God so loved.

Oh by the way, I sometimes deserve to be given a hard time because I must remember to keep love in my heart and not debase others, but gently share what I believe to be the true teahings.

Peace,
rschermer

 

[rschermer2]

ahimsaman72:

Thank you for your kindness. Unfortunately, as others can attest to I’ve not always been so nice. I can be too head strong and “speak” harshly.

No, no don’t apologize. I admire your zeal for your faith. If only others had so much zeal for their faith! You remind me of dear St. Peter or St. Paul.

I know you’ve probably gotten an “earfull” of things hurled your way by my protestant brothers. Sadly, I’ve fallen into that here also, just ask Maccabees. Just so you know, I almost converted here recently, but due to many reasons, theological and personal I did not begin RCIA this fall.

I still leave the option open for the future, but I have many issues to wade through if I ever do that.

God bless.

Thank you my friend.

I will pray for you in your faith journey. I will say only one thing.

God will provide.

Peace
rschermer

 

[ahimsaman72]

rschermer2:

AMEN!!!

I sure hope the person you were talking to wasn’t a Catholic, don’t get me wrong, I don’t sit here and presume that every Catholic is well versed in the teachings of the Church. It is a sad fact that many many Catholics do what they want and ignore Church teaching but justify it somehow. I’m sure that goes on the protestant world too.

God Bless,
rschermer

No, no, she wasn’t a Catholic. She wasn’t anything really. She intellectually believed in Jesus as Messiah and in southern, homemade apple pie, but that’s about the extent of it.

Absolutely. If I were to ask most of my protestant brethren about their core beliefs for their faith they would be puzzled beyond belief as to what to say. For the past 12 or more years I have read and studied the Bible and Christian beliefs at home. I believe it’s incumbent upon all believers to know what they believe and why they believe it. I don’t mean to sound better than anyone else, because I’m not. I have just made it a priority in my life to search for the truth of my faith.

Honestly, I’ve wandered away at times and doubted many things. But I could never doubt Jesus Christ. It was ingrained on my soul. I never doubted his divinity or sinlessness. I’ve doubted my love for Him. I’ve doubted my sincerity. I’ve doubted my purpose in life with Him. I couldn’t deny Him though. I hope I never do.

God bless…

 

[rschermer2]

Well, I couldn’t agree more with what you say about knowing ones beliefs. If I may give you a little story.

I was born and raised Catholic, my parents never missed Sunday Mass with all four of us kids. I went to Catholic school from Kindergarten to Grade 13 (In Ontario we had Grade 13 at the time).

I continued to go to Mass every week not missing (well, missing the odd one but very very rare, even when I was on vacation and my friends wondered what I was doing looking in the phone book for the nearest Catholic church) anyway, the whole time much of it was out of habit.

I moved from Ontario out West and stayed with some very loving and kind protestant friends of mine. I would attend worship with them once in a while but it never took the place of my Sunday obligation to go to Mass.

My friends lovingly asked me questions about some of the Church’s teachings and I couldn’t answer them from scripture, I never memorized scripture you see, while scripture is read every Sunday and I know all about scripture to quote verses is not mine (nor is it I suspect any Catholics strenght unless they have converted to Catholicism).

I was giving in on some of the teachings as to me my 25 years of Catholic learning and participation didn’t seem to help me.

One day at work I was chatting with another protestant friend of mine who happened to be studying theology at a bible school. I said something (and I think it was about Mary) but then followed it with ‘ahh well that’s not really biblical I guess’. Well to my surprise he said to me ‘never let anyone tell you that the Catholic Church is not biblical, if anything it may be too biblical’. I’m sure he said that last part for effect. Obviously this friend was a very ‘liberal’ protestant.

Anyway, he recommended a book by Peter Kreeft called Fundamentals of the Faith. Peter is a convert to Catholicism and his book was very enlightening to me. Well from that point on I have been very interested in apologetics and have read as much as I can about church teaching. I’m by no means perfect but I’m learning all the time.

Anyway, I don’t know why I’ve told you that but I guess I just wanted you to know why and how I have come to this place.

God Bless,
rschermer