The picking-up some Pampers or a gallon of milk Mass?

[TrueLight]

Stick to our own planks and leave the specks of others alone.

That verse used that way is the cop-out of all times.

It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out what we see as not right.

• See people speaking and laughing during mass? - Watch that plank
• See and hear someone chewing and cracking gum during mass? - watch that plank
• See priests replacing the words of their consecration with their own kumbaya words - that plank is blocking your cornea.
• Leslie and Bob who live together unmarried has just invited you to their housewarming? Ignore the speck in their eyes and accept graciously, being sure to keep your plank out of the way.

I don’t advocate making comments to strangers, but if someone is a regular member and they dress immodestly or casually to the point of disrespect (unkempt and dirty), when it is quite clear they have the means to dress properly, they should be spoken to.

I understand there are some parishes that will hand you a shawl to cover with if you come in dressed immodestly.

if then any be in Christ a new creature, the old things are passed away, behold all things are made new.

 

[pnewton]

That verse used that way is the cop-out of all times.

It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out what we see as not right.

Yes it can be used as a cop out, but not in this case. But what you gave was the specks, not the planks. Also, most of what you listed was sin, not style. When it comes to judging someone based on appearance as they walk into Mass, it is not even in the same ballpark as anything you mentioned, unless you put a reeaalllllyy high premium on dress code. This definitely reminds me of the cup which is clean on the outside and dirty on the inside. I am with you all the way when it comes to sin and we are in a position to speak up. I am not when it comes to people walking into Mass.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

That verse used that way is the cop-out of all times.

It doesn’t mean we shouldn’t point out what we see as not right.

• See people speaking and laughing during mass? - Watch that plank
• See and hear someone chewing and cracking gum during mass? - watch that plank
• See priests replacing the words of their consecration with their own kumbaya words - that plank is blocking your cornea.
• Leslie and Bob who live together unmarried has just invited you to their housewarming? Ignore the speck in their eyes and accept graciously, being sure to keep your plank out of the way.

I don’t advocate making comments to strangers, but if someone is a regular member and they dress immodestly or casually to the point of disrespect (unkempt and dirty), when it is quite clear they have the means to dress properly, they should be spoken to.

I understand there are some parishes that will hand you a shawl to cover with if you come in dressed immodestly.

Show us the scriptures where Christ or the Apostles taught others to dress a specific way for Church. You said, ‘We all know about the women modesty verses’. Modesty means free from ‘vanity’ or from being ‘boastful’. Paul even explained it further by including the plaiting of hair, gold, pearls, or costly attire.

We’re talking about the way people dress, not speaking, laughing, chewing gum, the priest’s actions, or being invited by those you are evidently offended by because of an invitation into their home.

We are all sinners and have our own sins. Christ did not avoid the sinner, in fact he visited with them, ate and drank. He also referenced things people would say about Him for visiting with what others viewed as sinful people.

Years ago I was a commercial fisherman. Since, I have become an EMT on an ambulance. I work 24 and 48 hour shifts. Sometimes it’s slow, sometimes we run ourselves ragged. After a very busy shift, I had been up almost all night, I was sweaty, smelled, probably looked like I hadn’t slept, and my hair was a mess. We lay down when we have the chance and I had a bad case of bed head. When the alarm goes off in the middle of the night, I grab my hat to ‘comb’ my hair. The next morning, we had a late run. By the time I got in, I barely had time to attend Mass. I combed my ‘greasy’ hair the best I could, brushed my uniform off and removed my medical gear and went to Mass in the uniform I had napped in when I had the chance. The Gospel message and homily was about the poor woman who gave her two coins. On the way out, I stopped by the priest and apologized for the way I attended Mass. He laughed and said ‘nonsense, you gave all you had to attend Mass this morning’ and he told me certainly the Lord understood.

Reading threads like this makes me wonder if I caused my brothers, or sisters, to have stumbled by them concentrating on me? Was I being a distraction at the Mass? Was it my fault, or the fault of others for the distraction?

God is with us all the time, when we’re working, shopping, or even on a morning jog/walk. We should be praying through all events of our lives, as we can. We are to live our faith 24/7. We are who we are and we do what we do and He should be included on all of it. Should we not communicate with Him because we’re dirty, not dressed right, or whatever? He sees us where ever we are and not just at the Church. I believe He judges our hearts and not how we’re dressed, unless we’re dressed without modesty and that can go a lot of ways.

 

[ElToro]

Nah. At my church, there are lines. Long ones. Many people see how we are dressed.

Confession is at the rear of the nave. Many more people are in the church, praying, entering, leaving. Many people see how we are dressed.

The difference isn’t the number of people who see us. The difference is our focus. People going to confession are thinking intensely about their sins, their state of grace, the mercy of God, preparing themselves for this encounter with God. Maybe if we thought about that at Mass, we wouldn’t be so worried about someone in blue jeans.

Wrong. Confession is still not a public liturgy.

 

[ElToro]

For those proposing a ‘dress code’ let me ask a question. I said I joined the Catholic Church in 1985, when I was a commercial fisherman. There were times that I came in, unloaded and cleaned the boat, and barely had time to make it to the daily Mass, wearing rubber boots and smelling of fish. Should I have not gone to Mass, or not, in your opinion?

You should have planned better and given the Mass enough dignity so you had the 10 minutes to clean-up a bit before going.

 

[ElToro]

To your first question, yes, which is why I always dress my best while ignoring others. To the second question, I don’t think this is true. People generally dress in accord to the average, if they are so swayed by what others wear, not in accord to the best or worst dressed in a crowd.

“Generally” that might be the case but I am certain that people now think in some cases “naw, I don’t need to get cleaned-up for Mass.” In the past (or in other settings) they would.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

You should have planned better and given the Mass enough dignity so you had the 10 minutes to clean-up a bit before going.

So, if my planning erred, or something unexpected came up, I should have just missed Mass?

 

[ElToro]

I think a great many look at attending Mass like they were getting a ticket punched. Just another requirement to cross off the list for the day.

 

[ElToro]

So, if my planning erred, or something unexpected came up, I should have just missed Mass?

Your planning should have contained adequate contingency for such instances. If it didn’t, you’re simply not giving the Mass high enough priority. In other words you’re saying I’ll take care of the importat stuff AND THEN I’ll worry about Mass.

 

[TrueLight]

Show us the scriptures where Christ or the Apostles taught others to dress a specific way for Church.

Deja vu. We already had this conversation. Like I said, you will not find any verses that speak directly to dressing appropriately for mass except for the ones which speak on modest attire.

It’s just common sense, that if you have the ability to make an extra effort and choose something nice out of your closet to wear to church, why shouldn’t you?

I combed my ‘greasy’ hair the best I could, brushed my uniform off and removed my medical gear and went to Mass in the uniform I had napped in when I had the chance. The Gospel message and homily was about the poor woman who gave her two coins. On the way out, I stopped by the priest and apologized for the way I attended Mass. He laughed and said ‘nonsense, you gave all you had to attend Mass this morning’ and he told me certainly the Lord understood.

Reading threads like this makes me wonder if I caused my brothers, or sisters, to have stumbled by them concentrating on me? Was I being a distraction at the Mass? Was it my fault, or the fault of others for the distraction?

Don’t be silly. You gave your best.

Again, I am speaking of people who choose to come unkempt because they don’t want to be bothered. They do it just because they can.

Can you at least acknowledge that those folks exist?

God is with us all the time, when we’re working, shopping, or even on a morning jog/walk. We should be praying through all events of our lives, as we can. We are to live our faith 24/7. We are who we are and we do what we do and He should be included on all of it. Should we not communicate with Him because we’re dirty, not dressed right, or whatever? He sees us where ever we are and not just at the Church. I believe He judges our hearts and not how we’re dressed, unless we’re dressed without modesty and that can go a lot of ways.

Of course. He also sees us when we’re naked in the shower. Should we not pray in the shower? Of course we should. Should we go to mass half naked? No.

Edited: I am concerned that I am giving the impression that I am the modesty police and walk around looking Amish. I am not that at all.

Neither do I walk around commenting and gossiping with others about the way people are dressed.

I also have plenty of friends who live in alternative lifestyles that are contrary to church teaching. My example of the housewarming was more an example of a Catholic couple deciding to cohabitate and having a housewarming. I would have to pass on that. It doesn’t mean I would never set foot in that person’s house.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Your planning should have contained adequate contingency for such instances. If it didn’t, you’re simply not giving the Mass high enough priority. In other words you’re saying I’ll take care of the importat stuff AND THEN I’ll worry about Mass.

So the important stuff is attending and meeting the requirements of everyone on earth to see and not making my heart right to meet with God?

Evidently you have no concept of what it’s like being a fisherman and I find your ‘rules’ keeping people away, potentially from the kingdom of God. In other words, you view what can be seen with the eye as the important stuff. I view what’s in one’s heart as the important stuff.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Deja vu. We already had this conversation. Like I said, you will not find any verses that speak directly to dressing appropriately for mass except for the ones which speak on modest attire.

It’s just common sense, that if you have the ability to make an extra effort and choose something nice out of your closet to wear to church, why shouldn’t you?

Don’t be silly. You gave your best.

Again, I am speaking of people who choose to come unkempt because they don’t want to be bothered. They do it just because they can.

Can you at least acknowledge that those folks exist?

Then the scriptures give no support to the idea of people having to dress a certain way. Those requirements are being placed by people on this earth and not by the rightful authority.

We do not know what circumstances caused anyone to dress as they did. We don’t know the stresses one endures, or what ever the reasons may be. I find their effort for showing up as more reverent than not coming at all.

I would imagine there are people who can’t be bothered, but it is NOT for us to judge, especially with our eye. It’s wrong on so many levels. Just as when He was arrested in the Garden, Christ does not need, or ask, us to defend Him. He did teach us to pray for everyone, including our enemies and people who don’t dress according to an earthly standard are not exactly what I would consider an enemy.

If there are those who ‘can’t be bothered’, where will they learn what is really important? Certainly not from being kept out of the Church.

 

[pnewton]

It’s just common sense, that if you have the ability to make an extra effort and choose something nice out of your closet to wear to church, why shouldn’t you?

I agree and concur on this. Where I part company is when we apply our standards of this to others. As you said, it is common sense, as opposed to precept or doctrine. There is no call for, or possibility of, uniformity of sensibility, effort or even spirituality. I think sometimes we forget that the Church is not only an altar for the Holy Body of Christ, it is also a hospital for the spiritually sick. The Grace of God that helps us understand the holiness of God is also the balm for the sinner. Give it time to work, even if it is a work of a lifetime, as it is for most of us.

 

[TrueLight]

If there are those who ‘can’t be bothered’, where will they learn what is really important? Certainly not from being kept out of the Church.

I don’t believe anyone should be kept out of the church.

I agree and concur on this. Where I part company is when we apply our standards of this to others. As you said, it is common sense, as opposed to precept or doctrine. There is no call for, or possibility of, uniformity of sensibility, effort or even spirituality. I think sometimes we forget that the Church is not only an altar for the Holy Body of Christ, it is also a hospital for the spiritually sick. The Grace of God that helps us understand the holiness of God is also the balm for the sinner. Give it time to work, even if it is a work of a lifetime, as it is for most of us.

Amen.

 

[formerlysure]

My view on this is like most things regarding manners and decorum - we should hold ourselves to a high standard and hold our children to a high standard. And we should have the class to let it go when others do not share our standard.

I had a dear family friend who was a marathon runner and attended daily mass. He ran to church - attended mass - then ran home, every day. This was his recovery plan spiritually and physically from a life of addiction. I can imagine someone might see him, looking like he just mowed his lawn, and judge him badly for attending mass in his running clotehs. But his faith was pure and real and he was there with the right intentions. I think it was fine.

 

[estesbob]

This is an “enabling” attitude. Sure it’s better to go to Mass than to not go, but to go looking as the OP describes borders on disrespect to the Eucharist to the point of offensiveness.

Now, let’s be clear, we are NOT talking about the homeless or the poor. We are talking about people who on a daily basis are perfectly capable of dressing up – and do dress up – to go to work, a date, a wedding, or even to a golf game, where a certain decorum is expected and given. Why is the Mass so disrespected, and the disrespect is excused and written off by saying God Loves Me As I Am. Yes, He loves us although we are sinners, but shouldn’t we at least TRY to overcome our sins and weaknesses? Shouldn’t we at least TRY to show the Lord some respect through our appearance before Him? Yes, we should!!!

Enabling behavior? As one who has been in Alcoholics Anonymous for going on 26 years. I can tell you that trying to conflate what we describe as enabling behavior with not turning around and berating the guy sitting behind me at Mass because I don’t like the way he is dressed is absolute nonsense. . He, like me, is there to receive our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. . It is not a time to get into discussion of fashion and my views on how one shouldshow reverence to the Lord.

. I have absolutely no problem with the pastor preaching on proper dress, printing a dress code in the bulletin or even posting reminders in the vestibule of the church. . However, once a person enters that church, our focus should be on what is going on not out how other individuals are dressed or how they are personally showing reverence to the Lord.

 

[Incomplete]

You are assuming that people have read the Catechism and know what it says.

I would be willing to bet money that 99% of the parishioners in most Catholics churches have never read the Catechism, other than what they were required to read way back when they were attending religious education classes. And I would add a side bet that they didn’t read it back then, either.

I’m guessing that a lot of Catholics were never taught anything about dress, because many Catholic parishes are happy just to see them at Mass, and don’t want to rock the boat and say anything that might drive their parishioners into the waiting and welcoming arms of the Protestant megachurches, where they are generally (but not always–depends on the church) free to wear pretty much anything.

Back in the 1960s, Dr. Jay Kessler made an excellent point regarding the raising of children. He said, “Choose your battles carefully, and don’t fight over things that really don’t matter. Save your big guns for the life-and-death battles.”

I’m thinking that a lot of priests probably agree with Dr. Kessler, and prefer not to make an issue out of Mass dress.

Yes, it’s true, if we are faithful in little things and pay attention to details, we are more likely to be faithful in big things. But you have to remember that to a LOT of Catholics, just attending Mass is a really huge, big deal. They are at a place in their lives where they don’t realize exactly what is going on at Mass. To many Catholics, Mass is just another “requirement” to get to heaven. They don’t realize that it is God Who is doing them a favor by offering Himself in the Eucharist, not they who are doing God a favor by showing up at Mass.

This goes back to the fact that we have to recognize and accept that everyone is at a different place on the road to heaven, and we can’t expect everyone to be marching along the road arm in arm, all at the same point. The road is wide enough for that kind of unity, but human beings aren’t “equal” in their understanding and appreciation of the Gospel.

Some people just can’t walk the road as fast as others can. If you are a fast walker on the road to heaven, praise God, because HE has given you your gift of faith. But others are lagging behind–read the parable of the soils. And some people just have so many burdens that they can’t move very fast, and they’re struggling just to stay on their feet and keep walking to heaven.

And some people keep turning down side roads to investigate other destinations, and this slows them down.

We just have to be patient and loving with each other, and not keep yelling at those who are way behind on the journey to “C’mon, hurry up! Walk like me!” God willing, they will get to heaven, too, in their own time.

Beautiful post, CAT. And Prodigal, I’m so glad you kept coming to Mass and thankful for all you’ve done for others.

Years ago I didn’t think much about what I wore to Mass. Anything that I was willing to wear in public worked for me at Mass. Also understand that young people in particular often say things like, “God loves me for who I am, and this is part of who I am.” Though some come unkempt because they don’t care, or maybe out of laziness, I doubt they’re thinking that they disrupt others. That isn’t their intent.

But back when I was wearing whatever I wanted, I’m glad nobody gave me funny looks (that I’m aware of) or tried to get me to stop attending Mass. Because being there IS important. Over the years of attending Mass, I finally grew to understand what it is we do there, to make the transition from “God loves me” to “I love God”, to grow from the “God as my friend” image, to “While He is my friend, He is also so completely great and holy” image. Now I attend Mass, and I wear skirts when the weather allows it.

You never know how God is going to work.

I’m just glad nobody openly judged me for how I dressed back then. As Cat said, we’re not all at the same place.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Just out of curiousity would it have been OK if this fellow:

Smelled horribly from 10’ away?

I come from a 3rd world country where 60% of the people are below the poverty line (they live on about $2-5 per day) where they don’t always have access to clean running water to wash themselves, and its a tropical country where its 30-degrees celcius or more average daily temperature for 10 out of 12 months and humidity is over 90%. So people sweat a lot. You’ll get used to it.

Talked on his cell phone during Mass?

Smoked in church?

Ate a big breakfast burrito during the Liturgy of the Word?

ALL coarsen the experience of going to Mass. Which are OK? Which are not?

We are talking about people’s clothing here. You’re taking the conversation off the tracks.

 

[ElToro]

I come from a 3rd world country where 60% of the people are below the poverty line (they live on about $2-5 per day) where they don’t always have access to clean running water to wash themselves, and its a tropical country where its 30-degrees celcius or more average daily temperature for 10 out of 12 months and humidity is over 90%. So people sweat a lot. You’ll get used to it.

We are talking about people’s clothing here. You’re taking the conversation off the tracks.

Is it fair to compare this man to the people you speak of? Should we have the same expectations?

 

[ElToro]

So the important stuff is attending and meeting the requirements of everyone on earth to see and not making my heart right to meet with God?

Evidently you have no concept of what it’s like being a fisherman and I find your ‘rules’ keeping people away, potentially from the kingdom of God. In other words, you view what can be seen with the eye as the important stuff. I view what’s in one’s heart as the important stuff.

Spin it any way you want but if you didn’t have a few minutes to wash-up and change clothes then you’re not giving the Mass much importance in your life.