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SIA
Guest
I must agree. Thank you for your comments.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
IMO, the C of E is far from finished, so certain RCs are not well-advised to gloat over its destruction as they do.
I think Rome needs to become more Protestant & much more evangelical, as well as that the C of E move towards Rome - the assumption that only one party, the Roman, need move, is one that needs to be challenged. Why, after all, would the C of E want to join Rome, which has plenty of problems & divisions, doctrinal & moral, as it is ? The C of E has no need of Rome’s problems as well as those it has. Look beneath the gloss, & Rome is really no better than any other Church; it’s not free of scandals, divisions, bad history, self-delusion, infidelity to Christ, any more than any other Church is. So let’s have a bit less of this Roman complacency that treats all other Churches as sick, when, as the biggest, it is probably the sickest of all.
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emeraldcoast
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Paul,
Some African members of the Anglican Communion don’t share your views on this issue, as highlighted by the Bishop of Botswana in this inteview:
episcopalchurch.org/81808_98816_ENG_HTM.htm
Notably, Bishop Mwamba observes “Looking at the future of the Anglican Communion from an African context, my contention is that it will continue renewed in faith and mission inspired by appropriate structures and instruments of unity,” he said. “I dismiss the doomsday predictions of those who glimpse the breakup of the Anglican Communion at a drop of a hat. The simple reality is that the majority of African Anglicans, about 37 million of them, are frankly not bothered with the debate on sexuality. A bishop from the Democratic Republic of the Congo told me that the people in his diocese were not in the least interested in the issue. This is just the tip of the iceberg because in my own Province of Central Africa, contrary to what the renegade ex-bishop of Harare, Dr. Nolbert Kunonga, and David Virtue have said, the debate on sexuality is not also an issue. We can multiply these examples across Africa.”
Bishop Mwamba then goes on to express what most of us in the ECUSA and the Anglican Communion feel in our hearts, “Let us then straight, gay, liberal, conservative, moderate, Anglo-Catholic, Evangelical, traditionalist, Africans and Americans, Asians, Europeans get into each other’s worlds and be enriched in the discovery of our oneness in Christ and together enlarge God’s kingdom of love where everybody has a seat at the table.”
Besides the Africans, leaders from the Churches in Hong Kong, Canada, and other areas also express their beliefs that the debate over human sexuality within the Communion should be addressed through meaningful discussion and prayer between those on all sides of the issue, not by the unilateral withdrawal of a minority group miffed that the rest of us do not want to exclude from fellowship those who need it most. How refreshing and uplifting these calls for understanding are when compared to the narrow-minded, “my way or the highway” attitude of the GAFCON leaders, or frankly seen here by some members of the RC Church.
"I do not believe the Anglican Communion is paralyzed by a false gospel. While we recognize that our relationships are bruised and broken the gospel calls us to be reconciled, to pursue healing and to seek the counsel of the Holy Spirit. It calls all those in leadership to use their authority “not to hurt but to heal, not to destroy but to build up” and “to unite the church in a holy fellowship of truth and love.” ~ Archbishop Fred Hiltz, primate of the Anglican Church of Canada
God Bless!
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emeraldcoast
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PaulDupre
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What do you mean, “more Protestant”?
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Ghoti
Guest
Well, if Prince William dies without issue, and neither he nor his father is predeceased by young Harry – we will have a Henry IX…
…unless he does the unthinkable, like marry a Catholic.
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
The debate likely to be provoked by those comments from Gottle really is pretty off-topic for this thread. I’d recommend that we don’t get into it here.
Is that all right with you, Gottle?
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
It’s an Episcopal Church organization that this interview comes from. Of course they’re going to interview someone who agrees with and will argue for their position!
Some African members of the Communion undoubtedly feel the way this interview says, but I strongly question this Episcopal interview’s claim that that’s the majority perspective. African Anglicans tend to be a lot more conservative than their American brethren.
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emeraldcoast
Guest
Lief,
While admittedly the source is from the ECUSA, I strongly doubt they put words in the Bishop’s mouth - I think we can assume with a high degree of certainty that he made those statements himself and believes them to be true. Neither one of us is in Africa and I doubt you are in communication with members of the Anglican Communion over there - I know I am not. How can we presume that you (or I) know more about the feelings of African Anglicans than a man who lives among them and is charged by God to guide them as they seek the will of the Lord? I think it is presumptuous (or at least wishful thinking) to claim that Bishop Mwamba’s opinion does not represent the majority of African Anglicans - how can you know?
This whole “Church of England falling apart” idea is based on the complaints of a minority of Anglicans who are willing to deny committed, dynamic clergy leadership roles in the Church - yet many here seize on their pronouncements and opinions as if they were the heaven-sent Gospel. If the “sky is falling crowd” can cite the views of these malcontents as authoritative, why can’t those in the opposition use conventional, “official” ECUSA or Anglican sources? What makes one opinion more “truthful” that the other, besides the wishful thinking of RCs who fear Anglicans are making inroads with un-represented Catholics who share many of our beliefs?
As The Rev. Lauren R. Stanley is quoted in the Episcopal Majority site:
episcopalmajority.blogspot.com/2008/02/episcopal-church-isnt-dying.html
"NEWS FLASH: The majority of Episcopalians in the United States voted to stay in the Episcopal Church today.
They did so by going to church, by receiving Communion, by participating in God’s mission and ministry, by praying, preaching and acting on God’s holy word, by working with youth and the elderly, by doing all the myriad things that have been doing through the history of the church, and by proclaiming, in many and varied ways, the love of God for all of God’s beloved children."
Peace!
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BritishCatholic
Guest
You are correct; the majority of Anglican’s due believe in Consubstantiation. My mistake.
However, members of the High Church or Anglo-Catholics do believe in transubstantiation.
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Lief_Erikson
Guest
I agree that he made those statements. As to whether or not he believes them to be true . . . that may be so. On the other hand, he might be playing his part in the political battle.
Well, yes and no. I live in California, so I don’t know any of the Africans, but I am a friend of the pastors to one of the Californian churches that joined the Ugandan Anglican diocese rather than remain Episcopal. Which isn’t that important, as it happens, as I haven’t discussed this issue with them
.There have been such loud cries of opposition coming out of Africa! That’s what makes me think that way- the news stories about their bishops and clergy expressing disgust over the Episcopal Church’s behavior are showing up all the time.
For instance:
Anglicans find it’s Africa vs. West on homosexuality
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Etonite
Guest
I think that"falling apart" is something of an overstatement. Having said that there are many thousands in shock after the Synod vote last Monday.
The traditionalists are aware that there will be women ordained into the Epsicopate at some stage but expected that provision would be made, as was agreed in 1992, for those whose conscience was against women in the priesthood.
The Bishop of Dover, who is pro-women, wept after the vote feeling that the Church of England wasn’t the same as he thought it to be. Over a thousand priests who are members of The Society of the Holy Cross are against this as are those churches who are part of Forward in Faith. The Evangelists are also beginning to side with the traditionalists and I would ask that all Catholics pray for unity in the C of E. It is a matter of the gospel and apostolic succession that leads traditionalists to their beliefs not sexism.
On a lighter note; yes the Church of England is really rather good at Evensong. In fact last week I attended a certain C of E chapel near here for what I thought was Evensong but it turned-out to be a sung Eucharist for the Visitation of BVM where the music was by de Victoria. In latin and sung by a cathedral choir this was magnificent (and also from Roman Catholic liturgy).
The traditionalists are aware that there will be women ordained into the Epsicopate at some stage but expected that provision would be made, as was agreed in 1992, for those whose conscience was against women in the priesthood.
The Bishop of Dover, who is pro-women, wept after the vote feeling that the Church of England wasn’t the same as he thought it to be. Over a thousand priests who are members of The Society of the Holy Cross are against this as are those churches who are part of Forward in Faith. The Evangelists are also beginning to side with the traditionalists and I would ask that all Catholics pray for unity in the C of E. It is a matter of the gospel and apostolic succession that leads traditionalists to their beliefs not sexism.
On a lighter note; yes the Church of England is really rather good at Evensong. In fact last week I attended a certain C of E chapel near here for what I thought was Evensong but it turned-out to be a sung Eucharist for the Visitation of BVM where the music was by de Victoria. In latin and sung by a cathedral choir this was magnificent (and also from Roman Catholic liturgy).
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Ghoti
Guest
It may be that this is the impetus that galvanizes the conservative element in the CofE.
Maybe the CofE will undergo its own “Reformation/Counter-Reformation”.
Maybe the CofE will undergo its own “Reformation/Counter-Reformation”.
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Etonite
Guest
Yes, Ghoti, you may be right. There are now sections of the Anglican Communion who, together, will try to resist the Liberal moves.
I suggested to a Bishop this week that in addition to those groups already within the Communion that we make two further seperate groups, formalised as Protestant and Anglo-Catholic. I don’t really know his thoughts on this, but he didn’t laugh at me!
I suggested to a Bishop this week that in addition to those groups already within the Communion that we make two further seperate groups, formalised as Protestant and Anglo-Catholic. I don’t really know his thoughts on this, but he didn’t laugh at me!
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oneGODoneCHURCH
Guest
Whatever do you mean more Protestant? If Rome needs to do anything in this area it is to remove some of the Protestantism that has crept in over the last 30 years or so.
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R_Britton
Guest
I am not as familiar with these matters as many people here are.
As someone who is hoping to convert to Catholicism, but with a spiritual and familial link to the Church of England, I can only speak of the pain felt by the people within the Church.
My mother was brought up in the Presbyterian church in Glasgow, and in her 20s rejected many of its teachings. For many years she was agnostic, and I was raised without a religion.
She married an atheist, but when I was 16 they divorced. Shortly after this she started attending her local Anglican church. She found a spiritual home and rediscovered her relationship with God. She became confirmed and eventually trained as a Reader - a lay preacher who can conduct services but not the Eucharist.
A few years ago she met a man who had recently converted to Catholicism. He was divorced also. They married a couple of years ago, without realising the consequences for him. Although he had been cohabiting with a woman for 19 years since his divorce, he had been allowed to receive communiion. Once he married my mother he was not. So now he exists in a state of anguish which obviously affects her, he receives communion as an Anglican, but agonises over this, does the priest believe in transubstantiation? Is there a Lady Chapel.? etc etc.
She is now attending a church in a new parish because of having moved house to be nearer his family. But the divisions in the church make it very upsetting for her. As someone raised in a suffocating environment, women cannot do this, women cannot do that, who thought she had found a spiritual home, she now finds the arguments surrounding her again.
In many ways she would be happy to be Catholic, it would make her husband very happy, but they would apparently not be allowed to receive communion.
I don’t know the answers to all this. It seems inevitable that the Anglican Communion will split. It seems to me that it would be better that it happened sooner. Less painful for all those involved, then the congregation could make their choices according to their conscience, and follow either the traditionalist/anglo-Catholics to the Roman Catholic Church, or the liberals to a new style Anglican church. The evangelicals I’m not sure about, they might be best to form an alliance with the Methodists or Baptists. But it is inevitable that the split will happen I think. The Church is a family, whose members simply cannot agree, they love one another but cannot find a way to live together. Its so painful.
Anyway, as I am trying to decide where to make my own spiritual home, I am drawn to the Catholic Church as it seems to be consistently certain about what is the truth. Maybe I will find that I am deluded, and similar divisions exist within the Catholic Church too, I hope not though.
Rachel
As someone who is hoping to convert to Catholicism, but with a spiritual and familial link to the Church of England, I can only speak of the pain felt by the people within the Church.
My mother was brought up in the Presbyterian church in Glasgow, and in her 20s rejected many of its teachings. For many years she was agnostic, and I was raised without a religion.
She married an atheist, but when I was 16 they divorced. Shortly after this she started attending her local Anglican church. She found a spiritual home and rediscovered her relationship with God. She became confirmed and eventually trained as a Reader - a lay preacher who can conduct services but not the Eucharist.
A few years ago she met a man who had recently converted to Catholicism. He was divorced also. They married a couple of years ago, without realising the consequences for him. Although he had been cohabiting with a woman for 19 years since his divorce, he had been allowed to receive communiion. Once he married my mother he was not. So now he exists in a state of anguish which obviously affects her, he receives communion as an Anglican, but agonises over this, does the priest believe in transubstantiation? Is there a Lady Chapel.? etc etc.
She is now attending a church in a new parish because of having moved house to be nearer his family. But the divisions in the church make it very upsetting for her. As someone raised in a suffocating environment, women cannot do this, women cannot do that, who thought she had found a spiritual home, she now finds the arguments surrounding her again.
In many ways she would be happy to be Catholic, it would make her husband very happy, but they would apparently not be allowed to receive communion.
I don’t know the answers to all this. It seems inevitable that the Anglican Communion will split. It seems to me that it would be better that it happened sooner. Less painful for all those involved, then the congregation could make their choices according to their conscience, and follow either the traditionalist/anglo-Catholics to the Roman Catholic Church, or the liberals to a new style Anglican church. The evangelicals I’m not sure about, they might be best to form an alliance with the Methodists or Baptists. But it is inevitable that the split will happen I think. The Church is a family, whose members simply cannot agree, they love one another but cannot find a way to live together. Its so painful.
Anyway, as I am trying to decide where to make my own spiritual home, I am drawn to the Catholic Church as it seems to be consistently certain about what is the truth. Maybe I will find that I am deluded, and similar divisions exist within the Catholic Church too, I hope not though.
Rachel
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Peter_J
Guest
Either that, or the CCEO could be renamed and have a little rewording – e.g “non-Latin” instead of “Eastern”, etc.
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Peter_J
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Dempsey1919
Guest
I don’t understand what is preventing the Anglo-Catholic faction of the Anglican Communion from converting to Catholicism.
They basically celebrate and believe in a counterfeit version of the Roman Catholicism. They have a devotion to the Blessed Mother, they pray to the Catholic Saints, many pray the Rosary and have Catholic devotions. They even make pilgrimages to the Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham.
Did you know there is even an Anglican Order of Preachers? They actually have Anglican Dominicans! This is crazy. The Dominicans are a Roman Catholic Order founded by a Roman Catholic Saint.
It is time for the so-called Anglo-Catholics to come home. They are not protestant; they are Roman Catholic at heart, and I hope they come to realise it one day.
They basically celebrate and believe in a counterfeit version of the Roman Catholicism. They have a devotion to the Blessed Mother, they pray to the Catholic Saints, many pray the Rosary and have Catholic devotions. They even make pilgrimages to the Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham.
Did you know there is even an Anglican Order of Preachers? They actually have Anglican Dominicans! This is crazy. The Dominicans are a Roman Catholic Order founded by a Roman Catholic Saint.
It is time for the so-called Anglo-Catholics to come home. They are not protestant; they are Roman Catholic at heart, and I hope they come to realise it one day.
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GKC
Guest
You are correct, as to what Anglo-Catholics believe.
As a general rule, anytime a statement is made about what Anglicans believe, generally, it will almost always be wrong.
Especially in the last 30 years or so.
GKC
Anglicanus Catholicus
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