The poor Church of England is falling apart

[hawkeye]

-Plot?
-Yes. You know the flood, and the lepers, and the commandments and all that.

Definitely !

 

[vocatio]

… or do you like women because you’re a heretic?

I like women because I’m married to one…and my Blessed Mother is one…so is my biological mom.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

They don’t believe in Transubstantiation. They believe in Consubstantiation. It’s a different theological understanding. While they may believe in the Real Presence, they don’t have a valid Eucharist.

They don’t believe in consubstantiation. Nowhere in Anglican history has anyone adopted consubstantiation as a belief. The Church of England and most of Anglicanism has always maintained that Christ becomes present through a divine mystery that is not to be understood by human beings. If you read the Book of Common Prayer, it states that the Lord appears in the Eucharist in a spiritual manner, mysteriously. Keep in mind, however, that High Church Anglicans believe in transubstantiation despite what the Book of Common Prayer states and the Low Church Evangelical Wing of the AC tends to look at the Eucharist from a memorialist/pneumatic presence point of view.

Anglicanism is complex. To label them ALL as believing in any one doctrine with the Eucharist is definitely not accurate. Some Anglicans reserve and even adore the Eucharist, some believe it returns to mere bread when communion is over.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

This is far from a strength. The foundation which binds believers together is belief as outlined in the creeds and doctrines. All of the faithful should cry out in one united voice “WE BELIEVE!”

The Anglican Communion is not bound together by a shared faith; the unity of the communion seems to be entirely cultural. Some have suggested that the Book of Common Prayer is an instrument of unity.

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is bound together by belief in the Apostolic. All 22 rites of the Church believe in the same doctrines, although they may express the faith differently.

Some of what you say is true. But the cultural comment I can’t agree with. Here in Central California the Diocese of San Joaquin has broken with the Episcopal Church USA (TEC) and has joined Archbishop Venables in the Anglican Diocese of the Southern Cone. This is an EXTREMELY conservative diocese. And yet in other parts of Latin America there are liberal dioceses that sympathize with the U.S. liberal church; they have women ‘priests’ and other silly beliefs. In Africa there is a conservative, orthodox brand of Anglicanism and in Canada there are several dioceses joining Fort Worth TX, Pittsburgh, Quincy IL, etc. in joining the conservative Southern Cone. So Africans, Canadians, Californians, Texans, Latin Americans, etc. all are “realigning” orthodox teachings in Anglicanism. It’s not just cultural, it’s by diocese in many nations.

And I think you give the Roman Catholic Church tons of credit about how all of Catholicism, 22 rites, etc. all share the same faith. Catholicism may on the external side look all unified and happy hunky dorry with unity but inside 90% of the RC’s in America use birth control, I read about five years ago that over 70% of teenage Catholics didn’t even know Christ was present in the Eucharist, Catholics by and large are voting about 50% for pro-choice candidates, and the priests frequently contradict vatican teaching about many sexual issues, etc. There are VERY liberal ‘Catholic’ teachers at many Catholic institutions of education that are poisoning the kids with false doctrines. Our local Catholic High School is abhorrantly FULL of teachers who deny Christ’s divinity? Many of our Catholic priests are out of line and in disagreement with Rome. There are Catholics who deny the validity or holiness of the post-Vatican II Church, schismatics, guys like Father Gruner, etc.

The Anglican Church is very open about its disfunction and problems. The Catholic Church, sadly, shows a strong united front but inside it churns out a lot of disunity. The priestly shortage in America is a result of a corosion, a decay in Catholic faith in America. I’m not so sure we are as healthy and unified as we appear. I can’t tell you how many women I hear complaining that the Catholic Church doesn’t ordain women and these ladies griping are Catholic!! Back east you have a lot of Ted Kennedy Catholics who go to Mass on Sunday but think most of Catholic doctrine is horse-pucky. I just think we hide our problems better than Anglicans do.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

+Akinola, et al @ GAFCON leave a certain amount of room for doubt when it comes to how contented the Afro-Anglicans are at the state of the AC. Not that they seem to be ready to REALLY do anything. A lot of us are of the opinion that GAFCON did nothing… So maybe essentially the Global South Anglicans are NOT all that unhappy.

And YES, I am in contact with Anglicans in Africa… but that just puts anecdotal against anecdotal I guess.

GAFCON was not meant to be a meeting to split the Anglican Communion apart. It was largely a symbolic protest counter-convention to Lambeth, a show of unity for traditionalists. It was also a time to gather in fellowship conservatives, discuss, agree on points of unity, and pray. There will likely be another one of these meetings. The bishop of San Joaquin, John David Schofield, who is a solid traditionalist and very charitable and loving to Roman Catholics, believes that there will be a major split from the Anglican Communion for the GAFCON traditionalists and a total Anglican realignment.

This realignment will purge ‘women priests’ and other liberal homosexual teachings from the ever-developing apostate Episcopal Church.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t understand what is preventing the Anglo-Catholic faction of the Anglican Communion from converting to Catholicism.

They basically celebrate and believe in a counterfeit version of the Roman Catholicism. They have a devotion to the Blessed Mother, they pray to the Catholic Saints, many pray the Rosary and have Catholic devotions. They even make pilgrimages to the Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham.

Did you know there is even an Anglican Order of Preachers? They actually have Anglican Dominicans! This is crazy. The Dominicans are a Roman Catholic Order founded by a Roman Catholic Saint.

It is time for the so-called Anglo-Catholics to come home. They are not protestant; they are Roman Catholic at heart, and I hope they come to realise it one day.

A mistrust of the Pope and his many years of corrupt politics with England, a belief that Christianity is better as a conciliar body (a la East Orthodox) as it was in early centuries, a disagreement with papal infallibility (seeing it as a modern invention only officially started in the 1800’s), a view that priests should be permitted to marry, and a love for the beauty of the English liturgy of the BOCP probably are many of their reasons I suspect.

 

[Dempsey1919]

Not to get off-topic, but I don’t there think there are 22 rites. In the East there’s Byzantine, Coptic, Antiochian/Maronite, Chaldean, and Armenian Rites; in the west you’ve got Roman, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Sarum, Carmelite, Benedictine, Cistercian, Carthusian, and … well probably some more I’m not thinking of at the moment, but I don’t think the count is up to 22.

Here are all of the Rites/Churches in Communion with Rome. They all profess the same faith.

Western Rites and Churches

ROMAN/LATIN FAMILY OF RITES

1. Roman

• Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite
• Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite
• Anglican Use Rite
• Mozarabic Rite
• Ambrosian Rite
• Bragan Rite
• Dominican Rite
• Carthusian Rite

Eastern Rites and Churches

Antiochan Family of Liturgical Rites

1. West Syriac

• Maronite
• Syriac
• Malankarese

1. East Syriac

• Chaldean
• Syrio-Malabarese

Byzantine Family of Liturgical Rites

1. Armenian (considered it’s own rite or an older version of the Byzantine)
2. Byzantine

• Albanian
• Belarussian/Byelorussian
• Bulgarian
• Czech
• Krizevci
• Greek (Christians who returned to Rome in 1829)
• Hungarian
• Melkite
• Romanian
• Russian
• Ruthenian
• Slovak
• Ukranian

Alexandrian Family of Liturgical Traditions

1. Coptic (Egyptians who returned to Rome in 1741)
2. Ethiopian/Abyssinian

SOURCE: ewtn.com/expert/answers/catholic_rites_and_churches.htm

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

GAFCON was not meant to be a meeting to split the Anglican Communion apart. It was largely a symbolic protest counter-convention to Lambeth, a show of unity for traditionalists. It was also a time to gather in fellowship conservatives, discuss, agree on points of unity, and pray. There will likely be another one of these meetings. The bishop of San Joaquin, John David Schofield, who is a solid traditionalist and very charitable and loving to Roman Catholics, believes that there will be a major split from the Anglican Communion for the GAFCON traditionalists and a total Anglican realignment.

This realignment will purge ‘women priests’ and other liberal homosexual teachings from the ever-developing apostate Episcopal Church.

Never the less, the “woman priests and now woman Bishops”, along with there homosexual teachings, will splinter off, and conduct these catholic rituals that make a mockery of christian worship. Wouldnt this be considered as pagan worship? under a different Title Church in the name of christianity? if it is not under the Anglican church’s. These women bishops who will have authority, will now splinter off again from Catholicism.

This is the problem when authority is not excercised, and kept to the teachings of the Apostles unchanged. You get independents who disagree with God’s authority, and select what they want to be christian teaching and start a new splinter church. When is this all going to stop?

The Pope “chair of Peter” has already spoken on this issue. No woman priest’s period. I dont know if this is the time to be calling traditional Anglicans back home to the Roman Catholic church. They must see it for themselves where the keys of Peter are excercised.

Peace

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

I don’t understand what is preventing the Anglo-Catholic faction of the Anglican Communion from converting to Catholicism.

They basically celebrate and believe in a counterfeit version of the Roman Catholicism. They have a devotion to the Blessed Mother, they pray to the Catholic Saints, many pray the Rosary and have Catholic devotions. They even make pilgrimages to the Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham.

Did you know there is even an Anglican Order of Preachers? They actually have Anglican Dominicans! This is crazy. The Dominicans are a Roman Catholic Order founded by a Roman Catholic Saint.

It is time for the so-called Anglo-Catholics to come home. They are not protestant; they are Roman Catholic at heart, and I hope they come to realise it one day.

A mistrust of the Pope and his many years of corrupt politics with England, a belief that Christianity is better as a conciliar body (a la East Orthodox) as it was in early centuries, a disagreement with papal infallibility (seeing it as a modern invention only officially started in the 1800’s), a view that priests should be permitted to marry, and a love for the beauty of the English liturgy of the BOCP probably are many of their reasons I suspect.

 

[GKC]

They don’t believe in consubstantiation. Nowhere in Anglican history has anyone adopted consubstantiation as a belief. The Church of England and most of Anglicanism has always maintained that Christ becomes present through a divine mystery that is not to be understood by human beings. If you read the Book of Common Prayer, it states that the Lord appears in the Eucharist in a spiritual manner, mysteriously. Keep in mind, however, that High Church Anglicans believe in transubstantiation despite what the Book of Common Prayer states and the Low Church Evangelical Wing of the AC tends to look at the Eucharist from a memorialist/pneumatic presence point of view.

Anglicanism is complex. To label them ALL as believing in any one doctrine with the Eucharist is definitely not accurate. Some Anglicans reserve and even adore the Eucharist, some believe it returns to mere bread when communion is over.

That Anglicanism is complex is one of my favorite themes.

GKC

posterus traditus Anglicanus, Anglicanus Catholicus

 

[kell0618]

Whilst I am a die-hard and devout Roman Catholic, I am also a Briton and proud of it. And ever since childhood, for some reason, I have greatly fancied the Church of England. I still to this day attend Evensong whenever I can at Anglican/Episcopal Churches because I think they are absolutely beautiful.

As I’m sure many of you have heard, a couple of days ago the Church of England has decided to ordain women as bishops. As you know, in the mid 90’s they decided to ordain women to the priesthood and that scarred the Church of England immensely(in fact, it’s still scarring them to this day). At a time when the Anglican Communion is falling apart, now the Church has to go on and ordain women as bishops? Quare?

Anyway, my main concern as a British Roman Catholic, and as someone who is keen on the Church of England, is hopes of reuniting our two Churches. It has for some time now been in the interests of Rome to become into full communion with Canterbury as it once was before the English Reformation. But the step the Church of England has decided to take is one step farther away for ecumenism. Pope Benedict XVI even expressed his sadness on the Church of England’s decision.

Your thoughts?

It is a very sad situation. Not only am I greatly disturbed by the ordinations of women, but by the openly Gay ‘bishop’ who recently visited your country from the USA. In my state (NY) several Episcopalian Bishops have converted to Catholicism over the degradation of the church here in the USA. My Anglican brothers and sisters are in my prayers and I think now is the time for all of them to come home.

Peace,

Kelly

 

[palmas85]

Whilst I am a die-hard and devout Roman Catholic, I am also a Briton and proud of it. And ever since childhood, for some reason, I have greatly fancied the Church of England. I still to this day attend Evensong whenever I can at Anglican/Episcopal Churches because I think they are absolutely beautiful.

As I’m sure many of you have heard, a couple of days ago the Church of England has decided to ordain women as bishops. As you know, in the mid 90’s they decided to ordain women to the priesthood and that scarred the Church of England immensely(in fact, it’s still scarring them to this day). At a time when the Anglican Communion is falling apart, now the Church has to go on and ordain women as bishops? Quare?

Anyway, my main concern as a British Roman Catholic, and as someone who is keen on the Church of England, is hopes of reuniting our two Churches. It has for some time now been in the interests of Rome to become into full communion with Canterbury as it once was before the English Reformation. But the step the Church of England has decided to take is one step farther away for ecumenism. Pope Benedict XVI even expressed his sadness on the Church of England’s decision.

Your thoughts?

Man made faiths such as the Church of England will invariably fall apart and succomb to the pressures of the secular world. They have no real base upon which to stand and so cannot resist the pressures of the outside world.

 

[angelusm]

Problem is when people leave the Catholic Church but they are already outside. The division among Anglicans is a chance that some of them will return to the unity with Rome. And this is what Jesus wants, he wants the unity of Christians, he wants them to obey Peter. I think more and more people will abandon Anglicanism as a result of unacceptable decisions of Anglican authorities. Obviously only those who FULLY accept the teaching of the CC could join us, Jesus doesn’t want any lukewarm desciples. God bless.

 

[Lilyflower]

It is a very sad situation. Not only am I greatly disturbed by the ordinations of women, but by the openly Gay ‘bishop’ who recently visited your country from the USA. In my state (NY) several Episcopalian Bishops have converted to Catholicism over the degradation of the church here in the USA. My Anglican brothers and sisters are in my prayers and I think now is the time for all of them to come home.

Peace,

Kelly

While agreeing with your sentiments I do not think protest at Canterbury is sufficient reason to flock to Rome, which is also the Holy Father’s opinion. Genuine conversion is ‘regardless of what is going on in the C of E’.

Voting Republican [labour] as a protest against the demoncrats [Conservative] sounds noble but it is not based on any real belief in the others ideology. At most it is superfluous.

Blessings and peace

 

[Peter_J]

Dempsey1919,

I disagree with your listing “Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite”, “Extraordinary Form of the Roman Rite” and “Anglican Use Rite” as three different Rites – I consider them to be three different usages of the one Roman Rite. But even if you count them as three, there are still considerably fewer than 22 Rites in the list you provided.

I think perhaps you’re confusing Rites with sui iuris Churches. There are, in fact 22 sui iuris Churches. (Or 23; I believe I’ve seen both figures claimed.) The number of Rites is different from the number of sui iuris Churches for two reasons: in the East, several different Churches use the same Rite, and in the West there are several Rites but only one sui iuris Church (the Latin Church).

Hope that helps,
Peter.

P.S. If you don’t mind my saying so, even if the number were correct the statement “All 22 rites of the Church believe in the same doctrines, although they may express the faith differently” still wouldn’t make much sense to me.

What does it mean to say that the Maronite Rite (the Rite used by the Maronite Church) believes the same doctrines as the Roman Rite (the primary Rite used by the Latin Church)? Why not just say “The Maronite Church believes the same doctrines as the Latin Church”?

 

[Hesychios]

…a belief that Christianity is better as a conciliar body (a la East Orthodox) as it was in early centuries…

I will say that church everywhere can be a messy business, but in Holy Orthodoxy conciliarity works, and that goes for both the Byzantine-Greek tradition of Orthodoxy and the non-Chalcedonian Miaphysites, who also consider themselves Orthodox (and separated from both of us during the Fifth century). One does not see the theology nor the liturgical practices going into meltdown in either communion, very stable. Neither claims any “broadness” or worries too terribly much about inclusivity. If you don’t agree you don’t belong, very simple indeed.

That conciliarity can not be demonstrated to work in a western church speaks volumes. Perhaps you guys do need a Pope.

 

[BritishCatholic]

It is a very sad situation. Not only am I greatly disturbed by the ordinations of women, but by the openly Gay ‘bishop’ who recently visited your country from the USA. In my state (NY) several Episcopalian Bishops have converted to Catholicism over the degradation of the church here in the USA. My Anglican brothers and sisters are in my prayers and I think now is the time for all of them to come home.

Peace,

Kelly

Yes, I was aware that Bishop G. Robinson was coming to England for Lambeth even though he was not invited by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

I’ll be truthful here. I personally have nothing against gay clergy. I took this stance when I found out a couple years ago that my long time pastor, spiritual director, and confessor was homosexual. At first I was a bit startled. Then I realized something. Even though he’s gay, he’s still chaste. He’s held true to his vows. And I don’t care what anyone says: he’s the finest priest I’ve ever met.

With that said, whilst I DO NOT at all endorse Bishop Robinson, I do feel slightly bad for him that he wasn’t invited to Lambeth. I mean, he is a bishop of the Episcopal Church. He still is a validly ordained bishop of the Anglican Communion. Thus, do you not think he should be invited? Personally, I am as equally uncomfortable with the fact of a woman Presiding Bishop. Did you see her installation robes? Lord have mercy…

 

[emeraldcoast]

Personally, I am as equally uncomfortable with the fact of a woman Presiding Bishop. Did you see her installation robes? Lord have mercy…

Wow…this last line reminds me of overhearing two teenage girls gossiping about another girl’s dress for the dance…

 

[IrishRover]

let us not forget that the AC was a creation of Henry VIII for his personal reason(s). it was over a period of time that his successors had religion in England put through many permutations that eventually became the AC. it is important to remember that because as we know from Scripture, a house built on sand will not stand.

i believe that there will be those within the AC who will join the RCC not as Anglicans but as converts to Catholicism. eventually, as they establish themselves as a faith community within the RCC, they may enact traditions that identify them as Anglo-Catholic. let us not forget the notables that have “come home” over time. “The Journey Home” on EWTN had an interesting and insightful program on recent converts only a few weeks ago.

let us keep all in our prayers.

 

[bkovacs]

I will say that church everywhere can be a messy business, but in Holy Orthodoxy conciliarity works, and that goes for both the Byzantine-Greek tradition of Orthodoxy and the non-Chalcedonian Miaphysites, who also consider themselves Orthodox (and separated from both of us during the Fifth century). One does not see the theology nor the liturgical practices going into meltdown in either communion, very stable. Neither claims any “broadness” or worries too terribly much about inclusivity. If you don’t agree you don’t belong, very simple indeed.

That conciliarity can not be demonstrated to work in a western church speaks volumes. Perhaps you guys do need a Pope.

Keep in mind that Holy Orthodoxy doesn’t give in the secular ideas either. And they have valid sacraments. Anglicanism probably could have worked to but the liberal protestant mentality of anything goes is why they are crumbling before their very eyes. The only hope Anglicanism has to survive is for those traditional Anglo-Catholics to come home to Rome and be part of in my opinion true Anglicanism. The Anglican Use parishes in communion with Rome. And that does include Canterbury and York if they would get off their liberal mindset, and return to tradition.