The poor Church of England is falling apart

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I don’t understand what is preventing the Anglo-Catholic faction of the Anglican Communion from converting to Catholicism.

They basically celebrate and believe in a counterfeit version of the Roman Catholicism. They have a devotion to the Blessed Mother, they pray to the Catholic Saints, many pray the Rosary and have Catholic devotions. They even make pilgrimages to the Shrine of Our Lady at Walsingham.

Did you know there is even an Anglican Order of Preachers? They actually have Anglican Dominicans! This is crazy. The Dominicans are a Roman Catholic Order founded by a Roman Catholic Saint.

It is time for the so-called Anglo-Catholics to come home. They are not protestant; they are Roman Catholic at heart, and I hope they come to realise it one day.
As a working hypothesis, I suggest that among the reasons Anglo-Catholics don’t became RC, en masse, would be that they don’t view their Mass as counterfeit, but believe they receive the very Body and Blood of our Lord there, don’t accept the reasoning behind Apostolicae Curae or its judgement on their orders, have an issue or two on matters Papal, and are not overly worried about what Rome thinks of them.

Just a guess.

And they no doubt will continue to go to the shrines to OL of Walsingham, both the RC shrine and the Anglican one.

GKC
 
I am not as familiar with these matters as many people here are.

As someone who is hoping to convert to Catholicism, but with a spiritual and familial link to the Church of England, I can only speak of the pain felt by the people within the Church.

My mother was brought up in the Presbyterian church in Glasgow, and in her 20s rejected many of its teachings. For many years she was agnostic, and I was raised without a religion.

She married an atheist, but when I was 16 they divorced. Shortly after this she started attending her local Anglican church. She found a spiritual home and rediscovered her relationship with God. She became confirmed and eventually trained as a Reader - a lay preacher who can conduct services but not the Eucharist.

A few years ago she met a man who had recently converted to Catholicism. He was divorced also. They married a couple of years ago, without realising the consequences for him. Although he had been cohabiting with a woman for 19 years since his divorce, he had been allowed to receive communiion. Once he married my mother he was not. So now he exists in a state of anguish which obviously affects her, he receives communion as an Anglican, but agonises over this, does the priest believe in transubstantiation? Is there a Lady Chapel.? etc etc.

She is now attending a church in a new parish because of having moved house to be nearer his family. But the divisions in the church make it very upsetting for her. As someone raised in a suffocating environment, women cannot do this, women cannot do that, who thought she had found a spiritual home, she now finds the arguments surrounding her again.

In many ways she would be happy to be Catholic, it would make her husband very happy, but they would apparently not be allowed to receive communion.

I don’t know the answers to all this. It seems inevitable that the Anglican Communion will split. It seems to me that it would be better that it happened sooner. Less painful for all those involved, then the congregation could make their choices according to their conscience, and follow either the traditionalist/anglo-Catholics to the Roman Catholic Church, or the liberals to a new style Anglican church. The evangelicals I’m not sure about, they might be best to form an alliance with the Methodists or Baptists. But it is inevitable that the split will happen I think. The Church is a family, whose members simply cannot agree, they love one another but cannot find a way to live together. Its so painful.

Anyway, as I am trying to decide where to make my own spiritual home, I am drawn to the Catholic Church as it seems to be consistently certain about what is the truth. Maybe I will find that I am deluded, and similar divisions exist within the Catholic Church too, I hope not though.

Rachel
🙂
Rachel,

I understand the frustration you’re going through. My mum went through the same difficulties when I was younger. What eventually happened was she was granted an annullment from the local bishop and she was able to marry my dad. Up until then, she wasn’t able to receive Holy Communion. I can be done, just so you know.

And I also understand you and your mum’s attachment to the Church of England. Whilst I was never Anglican, every Briton is exposed in some form or fashion to the Church of England since it is still the “Established Church”. And I also slightly understand why you may be attached to the Anglican Faith. Their liturgies are very beautiful and their music is one of a kind. I don’t think I’ve heard more angelic voices in my life than at that time I attended Evensong at Westminster Abbey.

Anyway, I am glad to hear that you are considering Roman Catholicism. I assure you, being a Catholic, especially an English Catholic, has aided in my sense of identity.

May God bless you, and may God save the Queen. 😉

Michael
 
And I also understand you and your mum’s attachment to the Church of England. Whilst I was never Anglican, every Briton is exposed in some form or fashion to the Church of England since it is still the “Established Church”. And I also slightly understand why you may be attached to the Anglican Faith. Their liturgies are very beautiful and their music is one of a kind. I don’t think I’ve heard more angelic voices in my life than at that time I attended Evensong at Westminster Abbey.
I’ve had very little exposure to the Church of England. Unfortunately, people are quite sectarian in my part of the country. For some reason, I’ve always viewed the Church of England to be quite middle class. I don’t know why and I realise that it’s quite silly of me, but I can’t help it.
 
Would Catholics really want to accept an influx of Anglican priests and laymen who convert not because they’ve had an epiphany on doctrine or faith, but because their current church is laying hands of ordination on the wrong sorts of people and they have no where else to go to escape the riff-raff? The analogous situation would be if certain Mormons jumped ship to that fundamentalist LDS sect in Texas after the mother church in Utah started admitting blacks into the Aaronic priesthood in 1978.
 
The analogous situation would be if certain Mormons jumped ship to that fundamentalist LDS sect in Texas after the mother church in Utah started admitting blacks into the Aaronic priesthood in 1978.
You cannot compare the Mormon prohibition against admitting blacks to the priesthood with the refusal of the Church to ordain women as Priests.

The Mormon position was based on bigotry and hate. The issue of women priests is doctrinal; we cannot ordain women because Christ himself did not ordain women. There were no women Apostles.
 
I think there are too many obstacles for the CofE to be reunited with Rome now.

I had always thought/hoped that it would be a matter of time before the Archbishop of Cantebury and the Queen made moves to reunite the CofE with Rome but I was being naive.

Individual Anglicans and maybe even small groups will no doubt decide to swim the Tiber (like I did). However, the whole Anglican communion in England reuniting appears to be almost impossible!
I agree. In fact I do not think re-unification is desirable given the recent developments within the C of E.

But I do hope and pray the C of E will remain part of the establishment. That is very important for our Christian base in England.

Blessings and peace
 
The Mormon position was based on bigotry and hate. The issue of women priests is doctrinal; we cannot ordain women because Christ himself did not ordain women. There were no women Apostles.
The issue for Mormons was doctrinal as well, within the circle of those who consider the Book of Mormon to be inspired, those who were “dark and loathesome” were considered to be under a curse from God to keep the white and pure Nephites from wanting to mix with them. Christ did not ordain women, but then he did not really ordain the apostles, he merely called them and they followed him. Later he breathed on them and gave them authority to forgive sins, but this is not something humans do in the sacrament of Holy Orders. Apparently someone ordained Junia, she was an apostle “of note”.
 
The issue for Mormons was doctrinal as well, within the circle of those who consider the Book of Mormon to be inspired, those who were “dark and loathesome” were considered to be under a curse from God to keep the white and pure Nephites from wanting to mix with them. Christ did not ordain women, but then he did not really ordain the apostles, he merely called them and they followed him. Later he breathed on them and gave them authority to forgive sins, but this is not something humans do in the sacrament of Holy Orders. Apparently someone ordained Junia, she was an apostle “of note”.
Only the 12 were at the last supper.

The difference between LDS doctrine and Catholic doctrine is that LDS beleive in continual revelation, that GOd can tell them to change doctrine. Catholics do not believe doctrine can change.

Junia may or may not have been a woman. The Wiki site has information on that.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junia

Apostle means sent. Mary Magdalin is called the Apostle to the Apostles, as she was sent to tell them Jesus had risen. It also refers to the first group of bishops. If she was a woman, she was not a bishop, as the Bible is clear that only men are bishops.
 
First of all, I’d just like to second what someone above me stated: You just cannot compare Catholic doctrine to Mormon doctrine. It’s just…wrong. Sorry if that’s coming on a bit harsh. But it’s true.

And yes, the CofE is very important in English society and government. I mean, Her Majesty is Defensor Fidei and Surpreme Governour of the Church of England. Speaking of which, I wonder how Her Majesty feels about women bishops. Even though technically she’s not part of the CofE decision making synod(since it’s consisted of bishops, clergy, and laity), doesn’t she have some sort of say? She is Supreme Governour of the the CofE for George’s sake…
 
There can be no reunion until they renounce their ways, they’ve driven a deeper wedge between Rome and them, and a wedge between many of it’s members, basically they’ve lost the plot.
-Plot?
-Yes. You know the flood, and the lepers, and the commandments and all that.

😃
 
I mean, Her Majesty is Defensor Fidei and Surpreme Governour of the Church of England. Speaking of which, I wonder how Her Majesty feels about women bishops. Even though technically she’s not part of the CofE decision making synod(since it’s consisted of bishops, clergy, and laity), doesn’t she have some sort of say? She is Supreme Governour of the the CofE for George’s sake…
The Queen basically plays no role in the governance of the Church of England. I doubt her words would count for much on these matters.

She’s hardly the Defender of the Faith, given the fact that the Church of England will change the faith to suit the opinions of society. I really don’t no how the Anglican Communion can be taken seriously.

They don’t have a unified doctrine; in fact, the Church can hardly be said to be one because there are that many different factions with totally different beliefs and practices!
 
While admittedly the source is from the ECUSA, I strongly doubt they put words in the Bishop’s mouth - I think we can assume with a high degree of certainty that he made those statements himself and believes them to be true. Neither one of us is in Africa and I doubt you are in communication with members of the Anglican Communion over there - I know I am not. How can we presume that you (or I) know more about the feelings of African Anglicans than a man who lives among them and is charged by God to guide them as they seek the will of the Lord? I think it is presumptuous (or at least wishful thinking) to claim that Bishop Mwamba’s opinion does not represent the majority of African Anglicans - how can you know?
+Akinola, et al @ GAFCON leave a certain amount of room for doubt when it comes to how contented the Afro-Anglicans are at the state of the AC. Not that they seem to be ready to REALLY do anything. A lot of us are of the opinion that GAFCON did nothing… So maybe essentially the Global South Anglicans are NOT all that unhappy.

And YES, I am in contact with Anglicans in Africa… but that just puts anecdotal against anecdotal I guess.
 
"NEWS FLASH: The majority of Episcopalians in the United States voted to stay in the Episcopal Church today.

They did so by going to church, by receiving Communion, by ‘’’…"
Counting the present always puts the counted in the majority!

Had the PECUSA maintained its classic demographic percentage of the population it would have over 5M members today, not far less than 2M.

Time will tell.
 
They don’t have a unified doctrine; in fact, the Church can hardly be said to be one because there are that many different factions with totally different beliefs and practices!
My old CofE church was quite traditional and whilst not high Anglican, it wasn’t that far off. 5 miles down the road is a CofE church that is very charismatic/evangelical and very much resembles a fundementalist church.

I was once told that one of the benefits of being in the CofE was that it was so broad as to be able to accomodate almost anybody. It appears that this supposed strength has become it’s weakness!
 
My old CofE church was quite traditional and whilst not high Anglican, it wasn’t that far off. 5 miles down the road is a CofE church that is very charismatic/evangelical and very much resembles a fundementalist church.
I was once told that one of the benefits of being in the CofE was that it was so broad as to be able to accomodate almost anybody. It appears that this supposed strength has become it’s weakness!
This is far from a strength. The foundation which binds believers together is belief as outlined in the creeds and doctrines. All of the faithful should cry out in one united voice “WE BELIEVE!”

The Anglican Communion is not bound together by a shared faith; the unity of the communion seems to be entirely cultural. Some have suggested that the Book of Common Prayer is an instrument of unity.

The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is bound together by belief in the Apostolic. All 22 rites of the Church believe in the same doctrines, although they may express the faith differently.
 
The Catholic Church, on the other hand, is bound together by belief in the Apostolic. All 22 rites of the Church believe in the same doctrines, although they may express the faith differently.
Not to get off-topic, but I don’t there think there are 22 rites. In the East there’s Byzantine, Coptic, Antiochian/Maronite, Chaldean, and Armenian Rites; in the west you’ve got Roman, Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Sarum, Carmelite, Benedictine, Cistercian, Carthusian, and … well probably some more I’m not thinking of at the moment, but I don’t think the count is up to 22.
 
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