The Pope’s Words : Pope owes Muslims a “deep and persuasive apology”

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MikeWM said:
I think at any realistic level, that goes both ways. I’m surprised anyone is trying to reconcile them, to be honest. They are clearly different faiths, even if they share a common root.
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Most (all?) heresies share a common root. 😉
I agree. But the Pope could have said any number of quotes - he could have used my post above, for example - that makes it clear that Christians use reason in their relationship with God, and we strongly oppose spreading faith by the sword. We don’t have to start saying things like everything that has come from Islam is evil and inhuman. I find it difficult to believe that the Pope couldn’t have found a better quote that satisfied what he was trying to say without causing quite so much offense.

Mike
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I like the quote he used. IMHO, the quote was chosen because it clearly defined what he was talking about. Especially today, the heresy of Islam gives almost nothing new to the world except oppression, death and destruction. It was clear and everyone understood it. That is why many Muslims are angry. It rings so true.
 
whatevergirl said:
i thought how ironic…you’re demonstraing how non-violent your faith is…with a violent demonstration? huh? :confused: i dunno. I think the Pope could have chosen his words differently, but his sole role is to help lead souls to Christ. Pope JP2 seemed to be a bit more eloquent when it came to bridging the communication gaps between other faiths. Oh well…we must pray for people of all faiths…that we practice forgiveness and mercy, as our God teaches.
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I agree.

We, Catholics also have our violent past, throughout the Inquisition and part of the Crusades, and even now with the violence and ugliness of the sex scandals, but the difference is that the people who practiced violence were doing this AGAINST their faith. It was not at all according to the teachings of the Catholic Faith, which is in fact about giving the enemy the other cheek. Christianity does not preach jihad or “holy war”.
 
The violence that is occurring in response to the Pope’s words only goes to show that Islam as practiced today is indeed too violent. (I’ll show you I’m not violent. I’ll burn your church down!)

It is time that we as Christians and Catholics stand up for our rights . I am proud the Pope has the courage to stand for the truth.
 
Maverick said:
It is time that we as Christians and Catholics stand up for our rights . I am proud the Pope has the courage to stand for the truth.
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It is time that we as Christians and Catholics stand up for our faith!
 
I think the Pope’s words have been misunderstood.

telegraph.co.uk/opinion/m…ixopinion.html

"There is, I am afraid, such a thing as being too clever by half. Pope Benedict is a case in point

The gist, to spare you the trouble of looking it up, is that belief in God is entirely consistent with human reason and the Greek spirit of philosophical inquiry. By using the reason God gave us, we become, in a way, more like him. Fair enough, you might think…

The very fact that the Pope cited the adjectives “evil and inhuman” was (falsely) taken as evidence that he agreed with them"

“In fact, the Pope was out to attack something very different – the contemporary, secular idea that faith is simply a matter of personal opinion.”
 
**No apology necessary, he didn’t intend to support the quotation, in fact he described the emperor’s message as “a startling brusqueness.” What happened? can’t read that? Have you abandoned your “reasoning”? It’s okay for a secular and liberal college student to quote the Emperor’s statement in order to discuss it in a paper academically, but when the Pope does it it’s an outrage. Muslims are just looking for anything to get offended by in order to act violent and try to justify their biases. The Politicians are loving the popularity they’re recieving by launching official government statements condemning the Pope for something he himself did not say! Hey Pakistani Parliament why not move to eliminate that terrorist safe haven you’re officially hosting there and why not work to treat your Christians equally as Muslims are treated here in the US and Italy!! **

Furthermore, In my personal opinion, even if the Pope said “The Emperor was correct in saying…” I would still stand by it, since the Emperor is correct, the response recieved by the Pope’s simple citation of the statement proves this. They get all offended, but hey they can crack on Christianity all they want and bomb churches, harrass Christians, discriminate them, while Muslim clerics just watch and listen approvingly and even incite it.

**However, forget my personal opinion, This is all ridiculous, the fact is and remains that the Pope did not support the Emperor’s Message. He quoted from it just as Liberal College Students quote things in their papers without supporting the quote!! **
In the seventh conversation (*4V8,>4H - controversy) edited by Professor Khoury, the emperor touches on the theme of the holy war. The emperor must have known that surah 2, 256 reads: “There is no compulsion in religion”. According to the experts, this is one of the suras of the early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat. But naturally the emperor also knew the instructions, developed later and recorded in the Qur’an, concerning holy war. Without descending to details, such as the difference in treatment accorded to those who have the “Book” and the “infidels”, he addresses his interlocutor with a startling brusqueness on the central question about the relationship between religion and violence in general, saying: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached”. The emperor, after having expressed himself so forcefully, goes on to explain in detail the reasons why spreading the faith through violence is something unreasonable. Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul. “God”, he says, “is not pleased by blood - and not acting reasonably (F×< 8`(T) is contrary to God’s nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats… To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death…”.

Source: vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/speeches/2006/september/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20060912_university-regensburg_en.html
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Let us Pray for our Holy Father in this time of difficulty.

Pater noster, qui es in caelis: sanctificetur nomen tuum; adveniat regnum tuum; fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra. Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie; et dimitte nobis debita nostra, sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris; et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo. Amen.

Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum; benedicta tu in mulieribus, et benedictus fructus ventris tui, Iesus. Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus, nunc et in hora mortis nostrae. Amen.

Gloria Patri, et Filio, et Spiritui Sancto. Sicut erat in principio, et nunc, et semper, et in saecula saeculorum. Amen.
 
No he should not appologize for this fake outrage. I doubt the Muslim population was even listening to the Pope. The extremists get everyone worked up and outaged for a way to begin battle. We are at war and it is a religious war, a clash of civilizations to be sure.

The Pope could clarify, but I pray he does not apologize. To me, it would be like apologizing for being Catholic.
 
MikeWM said:
I can’t agree with that. People are converting to Islam all over the globe. For the most part, they aren’t doing it to oppress other people or to cause death and destruction.
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Maybe that’s true, but keep in mind that in many countries one of the real motivations for people converting to Islam is to avoid death and destruction: their own. I mean you have heard how Christians are treated by Muslims in countries like Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Indonesia, … right?

And that is the exact problem being exposed in the paragraph of the Pope’s lecture which contains the controversial quote.
 
gilliam said:
There is more than enough religious anger in the world. So it is particularly disturbing that Pope Benedict XVI has insulted Muslims, quoting a 14th-century description of Islam as “evil and inhuman.”

In the most provocative part of a speech this week on “faith and reason,” the pontiff recounted a conversation between an “erudite” Byzantine Christian emperor and a “learned” Muslim Persian circa 1391. The pope quoted the emperor saying, “Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”…

The world listens carefully to the words of any pope. And it is tragic and dangerous when one sows pain, either deliberately or carelessly. He needs to offer a deep and persuasive apology, demonstrating that words can also heal.

nytimes.com/2006/09/16/opinion/16sat2.html?ex=1316059200&en=55dd46982dc29167&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
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Not surprising from the far left NY Times - they’ll take any opportunity to bash the Catholic church. You wonder if any of them actually read the lecture in it’s entirety.
 
I think we all need to be honest here, the Pope was not speaking out against Islam, he was not even secretly slipping in a teaching, the Pope was lecturing on a subject, and gave a quote as support of that subject.

It is not uncommon for a teacher to use quotes, even if he or she doesn’t neccesarily agree with them, to illustrate a point. I think that this is what He was doing, and it has been shown by the media as the Pope trying to make an official statement.

The Pope doesn’t need to apologize, it has been a mistake on many peoples part, but not on the Pope’s part.

A lone Raven
 
urban-hermit said:
Maybe that’s true, but keep in mind that in many countries one of the real motivations for people converting to Islam is to avoid death and destruction: their own. I mean you have heard how Christians are treated by Muslims in countries like Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia, Indonesia, … right?
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Yes. I wasn’t talking about countries that ‘force’ you to become Muslim. A great many people are choosing to become Muslim of their own free will, and very few of them do it in order to cause death and destruction.
And that is the exact problem being exposed in the paragraph of the Pope’s lecture which contains the controversial quote.
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I agree. You can’t force faith onto people. I obviously agree with that completely. I wish he’d said it like that, rather than using an inflammatory quote.

Mike
 
MikeWM said:
Yes. I wasn’t talking about countries that ‘force’ you to become Muslim. A great many people are choosing to become Muslim of their own free will, and very few of them do it in order to cause death and destruction.
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Since they are not of the Book in Somalia, many of them are given the choice of convert to Islam or die.

And your point again is?
 
gilliam said:
Since they are not of the Book in Somalia, many of them are given the choice of convert to Islam or die.
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That sounds rather like what I already said. I know some people are forced to convert. Nevertheless, a great many people are not forced to convert and yet are converting. There are converts in the UK, for example. I’m sure there are some in the USA too.
And your point again is?
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People mainly convert to Islam because they believe in it, not as an excuse to spread death and destruction.

Mike
 
MikeWM said:
Yes. I wasn’t talking about countries that ‘force’ you to become Muslim. A great many people are choosing to become Muslim of their own free will, and very few of them do it in order to cause death and destruction.
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I am saying:

“Islam has a problem with forcing people to convert.”

…and you are saying:

“But not everybody is being forced to convert.”

I agree in principle with your assertion.

I just don’t see how it has any bearing on the problem.
 
urban-hermit said:
I am saying:

“Islam has a problem with forcing people to convert.”

…and you are saying:

“But not everybody is being forced to convert.”

I agree in principle with your assertion.

I just don’t see how it has any bearing on the problem.
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I’m not sure it does. I was replying to gilliam’s comment
Islam gives almost nothing to the world except oppression, death and destruction.
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and I respectfully disagreed. Those choosing to freely convert evidently see rather more than that.

That doesn’t change the fact that in some parts of the world, people are being forced to convert. Evidently this is wrong, and it is good that our Pope is trying to deal with that (by saying not only is it morally wrong, it is theologically wrong).

Mike
 
MikeWM said:
That doesn’t change the fact that in some parts of the world, people are being forced to convert. Evidently this is wrong, and it is good that our Pope is trying to deal with that (by saying not only is it morally wrong, it is theologically wrong).

Mike
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Evidently??? Did you really mean to use that word?
 
Do we have the text of Pope B16’s apology on this matter? Father read some of it in his homily yesterday, I’d like to see the whole thing. If anyone has the link can they post it, please? I’ve tried looking for it at vatican.va but coming up bust.

I liked the lecture B16 gave (g-man linked it). I thought it was very good and not inflammatory at all. I am thinking the ones inflamed by it haven’t read or heard the lecture and are just being fanned by out of context blurbs being given for some other agenda.
 
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