The Pope’s Words : Pope owes Muslims a “deep and persuasive apology”

[Carrie_Andrews]

I think we try not to stoop to name calling because, after all, we are the good guys. I keep expecting to hear words of charity and love when I log onto this forum. I’m often disappointed by the anger(at each other, not at the topic in question) that I see. I’m referring to the last couple posts, not the topic in question here. Usually what I see are words written in angry retort, and page after page of rebuttals. Does anyone pray before posting, I try to remember to, although I’ve shot off quick replys too.

 

[ChristIsTheWay]

I think we try not to stoop to name calling because, after all, we are the good guys. I keep expecting to hear words of charity and love when I log onto this forum. I’m often disappointed by the anger(at each other, not at the topic in question) that I see. I’m referring to the last couple posts, not the topic in question here. Usually what I see are words written in angry retort, and page after page of rebuttals. Does anyone pray before posting, I try to remember to, although I’ve shot off quick replys too.

You make good points. I’m willing to admit I was a bit hasty in my replies.

 

[2shelbys]

Any notion that the Pope should apologize has been negated by their reaction which proves that the statement he read is as true today as it was when it was first uttered. That is why they are so furious. Only an uncomfortable truth can upset people so much.

 

[RWMorris]

I won’t go into the various scientific and mathematical advances that people who follow Islam have given us, for example, but we shouldn’t ignore them either.

Oh, please do. I keep hearing about these advances but I can find no evidence of them. What I have found in my research is that Arab culture prior to the 7th century, prior to Mohammed, was responsible for a number of scientific and cultural advances. Once Islam becomes dominate in a culture, especially if shria (Islamic Law) is implemented, all advances in science and culture stop.

In fact, this early Arab technical superiority is what gave Islam military superiority over Europe until the middle ages. After that European advances in science slowly began to give it the upper hand in its struggle against Islam.

If you can document evidence contrary to this, please do. I’m serious, no sarcasm intended. God bless!

 

[2shelbys]

Oh, please do. I keep hearing about these advances but I can find no evidence of them. What I have found in my research is that Arab culture prior to the 7th century, prior to Mohammed, was responsible for a number of scientific and cultural advances. Once Islam becomes dominate in a culture, especially if shria (Islamic Law) is implemented, all advances in science and culture stop.

In fact, this early Arab technical superiority is what gave Islam military superiority over Europe until the middle ages. After that European advances in science slowly began to give it the upper hand in its struggle against Islam.

If you can document evidence contrary to this, please do. I’m serious, no sarcasm intended. God bless!

Mike,
I would be very interested in your response. Of what “scientific and cultural advances” do you speak? Remember, prior to Mohammed does not count.

 

[Eden]

Mike,
I would be very interested in your response. Of what “scientific and cultural advances” do you speak? Remember, prior to Mohammed does not count.

Well, here we see an exhibit in Manchester, England about “1001 Muslim Inventions”:

bbc.co.uk/manchester/content/articles/2006/03/09/1001_muslim_inventions_event_feature.shtml

And here is someone debunking the “Top 20”:

badhairblog.blogspot.com/2006/03/brief-debunking-of-list-of-top-20.html

 

[Eden]

There is a follow-up to the second link:

badhairblog.blogspot.com/2006/03/that-list-of-top-20-muslim-inventions.html

 

[Theodora]

The offending words from the Pope show to be self-fulilling. Catholic League president Bill Donahue expressed it so well:

catholicleague.org/news.htm

September 18, 2006
**MUSLIM REACTION PROVES POPE’S POINT **
Catholic League president Bill Donohue addressed today the Muslim reaction to Pope Benedict XVI’s speech at Regensburg University:

“One of the points that the pope made in his speech at Regensburg University was the necessity of linking faith to reason. He warned that uncoupling the twin values had horrendous consequences, leading people of faith to resort to violence. Ironically, the violent reaction, and the calls for more violence, on the part of some Muslims underscores the pope’s point. The response of violence to non-violence is barbaric.

“In Somalia, Muslims were urged by a cleric to ‘hunt down’ the pope and kill him. ‘Whoever offends our Prophet Muhammad should be killed on the spot by the nearest Muslim,’ said Sheik Abubakar Hassan Malin. No doubt that this ‘man of God’ must be happy now that a nun was shot outside a children’s hospital in the nation’s capital. The Mujahideen Shura Council referred to the pope as ‘the worshipper of the cross,’ and pledged to ‘break the cross and spill the wine’ in the ‘house of the dog from Rome.’ The group, which posted its call to violence on the Internet, also said that God will enable Muslims ‘to slit their throats, and make their money and descendants the bounty of the mujahideen.’ Seven churches were firebombed in the West Bank and Gaza by gun-wielding Palestinians, using lighter fluid to burn the churches. And today, in the Pakistani-controlled section of Kashmir, Muslims took to the streets chanting ‘Death to the Pope,’ burning him in effigy.
“No wonder the pope has spoken against Turkey (where an official compared him to Hitler) joining the European Union. Not until Islam matures and Muslims come to reject the wanton destruction of innocent human life is there any chance of a real dialogue. The scene of Muslims calling for Jews and Christians to be murdered with impunity is all too common, as this latest demonstration of hate proves.”

 

[MikeWM]

Mike,
I would be very interested in your response. Of what “scientific and cultural advances” do you speak? Remember, prior to Mohammed does not count.

Much of mathematics for one, including the word ‘algebra’:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mathematics

and Astronomical instrumentation:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_astronomy

and Medicine

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_medicine

I didn’t say ‘cultural’. No strawmen please.

Mike

 

[Al_Masetti]

Let me see if I got this right:

The Pope said that maybe Muslims might be violent.

The Muslims denied it and threatened to kill him. To punctuate the point, they shot a nun in the back and and killed her and burned five churches.

Is that about right?

I didn’t read the actual text of the Pope’s speech; just going by the Main Stream Media reports.

 

[tipiloschi]

Did you hear Rosie ODonnell when she said that radical christians are just as dangerous as radical islamists?

LOL!!! Whats funny is that she said this like two days before the Pope spoke and the Muslims FREAKED

BTW the Pope didnt apologize, the media tried to apologize for him.

 

[1281]

No.

 

[RWMorris]

Much of mathematics for one, including the word ‘algebra’:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mathematics
and Astronomical instrumentation:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_astronomy
and Medicine

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_medicine

I didn’t say ‘cultural’. No strawmen please.

Mike

Mike, I may be wrong about my statement concerning Arab advances in science since the 7th century. I use Wikipedia often while fully realizing its shortcomings; it is “the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit”. If you take a look at each of the articles above you’ll find “Opposing views” listed in the “Contents” section or under the “Discussion” tab.

What I have found is that some historians feel that Muslim nations lived off earlier Arab advances while importing Greek and Indian science and technology to cement their authority. Also, some historians feel that many scientific advances under the rule of Islam should be credited to Christian, Jewish, and other non-Muslim scientists ‘retained’ by Islamic governments.

Like I said above, I may be wrong, but I need more than Wikipedia to convince me. Do you have any other sources? I would consider your own well-reasoned argument as a credible source. Thanks for challenging me, God Bless you.

 

[Deus_Vult]

Much of mathematics for one, including the word ‘algebra’:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_mathematics

and Astronomical instrumentation:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_astronomy

and Medicine

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_medicine

I didn’t say ‘cultural’. No strawmen please.

Mike

MUSLIM ADVANCES???

They still have a LONG way to go…a good place to start would be better treatment of women!

Although they are making baby steps…its taken a few centuries…

Amid the images of death, destruction and mayhem in Iraq, some piece of good news from the Middle East has gone virtually unnoticed. Women’s rights are progressing in many Middle Eastern countries, and numerous small but important victories have been won. Over the past several years, women in Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Morocco, Bahrain and Qatar have won political and legal reforms unthinkable a decade ago. While some developments may appear minor to those who take these freedoms for granted, they are revolutionary in conservative Muslim societies. Take Saudi Arabia. In this intensely traditional country that enforces strict gender segregation in all aspects of public life, women were allowed to run, campaign and vote in elections for the board of the Jidda Chamber of Commerce and Industry for the first time last November… …In neighboring Qatar, Bahrain and Kuwait, all tiny oil-rich Arab Gulf states, the ruling emirs extended voting rights to women over the past few years. Several women now hold high government offices. In Morocco, Islamists were forced to accept a reformed personal-status code, the Moudawana, which gives women more rights in marriage and divorce, as well as the appointment of 50 women preachers for mosques, schools, hospitals and prisons.How kind of them…they should be proud

 

[MikeWM]

Like I said above, I may be wrong, but I need more than Wikipedia to convince me. Do you have any other sources? I would consider your own well-reasoned argument as a credible source. Thanks for challenging me, God Bless you.

That’s very kind.

Unfortunately I don’t have much time right now. I know most of the things in the maths and astronomy articles to be the case (I have a degree in maths and have a strong amateur interest in astronomy) - or at least I’ve read many things that corroborate them.

If I get chance I’ll try to dig out some more internet references.

Your critique of Wikipedia is correct. It is a very useful tool to quickly summarise a position of something you already know. It is rather less useful in learning new areas about which you have no knowledge.

Mike

 

[MikeWM]

MUSLIM ADVANCES???

They still have a LONG way to go…a good place to start would be better treatment of women!

Not exactly a scientific or mathematical advance though, is it?

Although they are making baby steps…its taken a few centuries…

You do realise it wasn’t so long ago at all that women didn’t have the vote here (or in the USA)? We’re not so far ahead as we like to arrogantly think.

How kind of them…they should be proud

Few dramatic changes happen overnight, much as we might want them too. However, yes, these things ought to be happening much quicker.

Mike

 

[RWMorris]

I appeal to everyone to read the text of Pope Benedict XVI’s speech. It can be found at:
catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0291.htm

I also suggest you read the following critique the Pope’s speech. It’s the best I’ve read yet in the secular press.

Pope Provocateur, He was defending reason, not attacking Islam.
BY BRET STEPHENS
Wednesday, September 20, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT
(opinionjournal.com/wsj/?id=110008967)

I included a paragraph of Mr. Stephens article below:

“These reflections lead Benedict to a much graver indictment of Islam: “For Muslim teaching,” he says, “God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.” Citing the 11th century polymath Ibn Hazm, Benedict adds that in Islam, “God is not bound even by his own word.””
- BRET STEPHENS

 

[gilliam]

“These reflections lead Benedict to a much graver indictment of Islam: “For Muslim teaching,” he says, “God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality.” Citing the 11th century polymath Ibn Hazm, Benedict adds that in Islam, “God is not bound even by his own word.””

• BRET STEPHENS

Which is the issue the Pope is trying to bring up. The Pope said today:

“I chose the theme,” he said, "of the relationship between faith and reason. In order to introduce my audience to the dramatic nature and current importance of the subject, I quoted some words from a Christian-Muslim dialogue from the 14th century in which the Christian - the Byzantine Emperor Manuel II Paleologus - presented to his Muslim interlocutor, in a manner we find incomprehensibly brusque, the problem of the relationship between faith and violence.

"This quotation, unfortunately, has lent itself to misunderstandings. However, to an attentive reader of my text it is clear that in no way did I wish to make my own the negative words pronounced by the medieval emperor, and that their polemical content does not express my personal convictions. My intentions were quite otherwise: on the basis of what Manuel II subsequently said in a positive sense … concerning the reason that must guide us in transmitting the faith, I wished to explain that not religion and violence, but religion and reason, go together.

“The theme of my talk was, then, the relationship between faith and reason,” he added. "I wished to call for a dialogue of the Christian faith with the modern world and for dialogue between all cultures and religions. I hope that at various moments of my visit - when, for example, in Munich I underlined how it important it is to respect what is sacred for others - what emerged was my deep respect for all the great religions, and in particular for Muslims who ‘worship the one God,’ and with whom we are committed to promoting ‘peace, liberty, social justice and moral values for the benefit of all humanity.’

“I trust, therefore, that following the initial reactions, my words at the University of Regensburg may constitute an impulse and encouragement towards positive, even self-critical, dialogue both among religions and between modern reason and Christian faith.”

212.77.1.245/news_services/pr…iche/e1_en.htm

 

[Eden]

Just on the topic of Muslim contributions to humankind, does anyone have any example of how the Muslim world has contributed to the advancement of humanity in the past 100-200 years? Perhaps I will be accused of being harsh. But my question is genuine. I’ll list a few things coming from the West (mostly the U.S.):

Here’s just the tip of the iceberg: The lightbulb, the telephone, the camera, movie camera and movies, radio, cars, television, airplanes, computers, VCRs, DVDs, the internet, the polio vaccine, penicillin, X-rays, rockets and space shuttles, walking on the moon… That’s all just off the top of my head. Anyone else to add to either the list of achievements from the West or the Islamic world within the past 200 years.

My question is inspired by Dr. Wafa Sultan’s quote from when she appeared on Al-Jazeera:

“Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people and destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind, before they demand that humankind respect them.”

 

[TradyDaddy]

The questions here is… do we follow what the Roman Catholic Church had taught about non-Catholic religions as being false religions for the first 20 centuries … or do we follow what Nostae Aetate and other Vatican II documents have said giving these other religions level status with the Catholic religion. Why the Pope uttered this quote is astounding since he supports the latter more evolved version of truth. He really needs to pick one or the other… the Traditional view or the modernized view… the two are NOT compatible.