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iamback2tlk
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I hope and pray that God’s word is discussed and both Catholic and Non Catholic can learn from each other. God tells us of his love for the Church, and Jesus prayed for unity.
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EA_Man
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I find it amusing that when difficulties with doctrines are raised, many people simply recite the Doctrine again. As if by reciting the Doctrine they are warding off the difficulties.
The point I’m making is that reliable sources, including Catholic sources, cannot agree on the number of Popes that have ascended to the Throne of Peter. Apparently there has been a break in Succession in that scholars don’t know or can’t agree on exactly how many popes there have been. And the problems don’t arise simply because of poor record keeping or lost documents. The problems exist because of how some popes ascended to Peter’s seat. Some killed to get the seat, some bought the seat, some arranged for family members to get it. In some cases councils elected and then removed popes.
If a break would not matter, then why the difficulty in admitting that there has been one or several for that matter?
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Gottle_of_Geer
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mercygate
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No difficulty, and this is an important point. Apostolic Succession is the critical point, not succession to the chair of Peter. All of the Apostles share equally in the charism of Apostolic Succession, which is more like a net than a string because it takes 3 bishops to consecrate a bishop, so it isn’t just one person passing the charism along to the next. A tear in the net does not constitute a break. Papal succession is about the chair of Rome specifically. When the person inaugurated to that chair has been properly elected, then the chair is filled. Squabbles such as those surrounding the Babylonian captivity are about WHO is the legitimate Pope not about the validity of the succession.
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mercygate
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The charism of Apostolic Succession is shared by all bishops. Since it takes 3 bishops to consecrate another bishop, the succession is more like a net than a line. Succession to the chair of Peter is titular rather than sacramental. He is a bishop. THAT is what counts.
Ugly as all this may be, it would not affect the Petrine primacy either particularly or in general.
There is no difficulty as long as the Apostolic Succession is sustained. The Church does not collapse during an interregnum – and some of them have been lengthy. But when a legitimate successor takes the Chair, then he functions as the first among his brothers.
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Geocacher
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I tend to look at all the sides of this issue, I look at the bible, and the Pope, and our own spiritual progression. It is good to have a Pope at the Helm of the Catholic Church, and without leadership, the church would have no rudder. We humans need a physical leader, to avoid chaos, and Pope John Paul has done an awful lot of good for us. The Bible can be Read and studied, but done with alot of prayer and fasting too. It is good to have the Church and a leader that helps us to become more christ-like, but the Pope, cannot replace GOD. We must try to overcome the evils of this World, like worldly thoughts and materialism, and use the Bible as a textbook of learning. I am an LDS person that has recently been attracted to the Catholic Church and all the good Pope John Paul has Done for Spiritual Direction of many people on Earth. I have watched/listened the funeral of John Paul II a few times now, and it is incredible how many people on the Earth have watched the funeral, even my best friend who does not believe in GOD, had gotten up at 4am Detroit time to watch the funeral, before going into work that day.
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mercygate
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Development of doctrine means that a doctrine may become more clearly understood over time while not “changing” the fundamental underlying point. A good example of this is the Church’s understanding of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. From earliest times Christians believed that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist but only after much discussion and controversy was it deemed necessary to define exactly how Christ is present (the Orthodox Churches to this day do not define the "how). This resulted in the promulgation of the dogma of transubstantiation at the Council of Florence in 1215.
The use of images in prayer, the intercession of the Communion of Saints, and the Marian doctrines are not “creepings” of later centuries; all of them can be found in the immediate subapostolic age.
What DOES make the appearance of these things more or less visible is often a change in DEVOTION rather than a change in doctrine. For example, when John Henry Newman was struggling with Catholic doctrine before coming into the Church, a breakthrough came for him when he recognized that the great mediaeval flowering of Marian devotion arose out of a solid doctrinal base present in the writings of the Early Church Fathers.
We refer to Scripture as inerrant, not infallible. Catholics understand the “Word of God” to comprise the two threads of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. One reason for that is that only through Sacred Tradition do we know what the Bible *is. *
Paul was correcting him on a point of discipline, not doctrine. And when it comes to that, why does no one criticize Paul for having Timothy circumcized, since the issue was the same?
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CARose
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The example I shared with a friend who also didn’t understand the need for a Pope was this.
I’ve experienced it and I’d be surprised if you hadn’t also. Two people, both who love and fear the Lord seek to resolve something and turn to scripture for guidance. They come up with mutually exclusive interpretations of how to proceed and with what scripture means. Where do you then turn? Without the concept of the Church having a hierarchy, with definitive authority, God Given Authority, how can such disputes ever been resolved to satisfaction. God created a living, breathing authority so we might know his Truth when we need assistance. The Holy Spirit guides this authority.
Remember scripture tells us that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation (or bulwarks) of the Truth. 1 Tim 3:15
God Bless,
CARose
I’ve experienced it and I’d be surprised if you hadn’t also. Two people, both who love and fear the Lord seek to resolve something and turn to scripture for guidance. They come up with mutually exclusive interpretations of how to proceed and with what scripture means. Where do you then turn? Without the concept of the Church having a hierarchy, with definitive authority, God Given Authority, how can such disputes ever been resolved to satisfaction. God created a living, breathing authority so we might know his Truth when we need assistance. The Holy Spirit guides this authority.
Remember scripture tells us that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation (or bulwarks) of the Truth. 1 Tim 3:15
God Bless,
CARose
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mercygate
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EA_Man
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truthinlove:
This 30,000 denominations claim is a tiresome meme.
For more information - ntrmin.org/30000denominations.htm
The same author that you so enthusiastically cite also claims that there are at least 223 distinct Roman Catholic Denominations.
Furthermore, the author indicates that this number can be further broken down to “produce 2,942 separate denominations”.
I don’t think that the author of the World Christian Encyclopedia “grabbed that number out of the air”, do you?
If you believe the 30,000 figure estimate and cite it as authoritative shouldn’t you take the figure on RCC denominations as authoritative as well?
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flameburns623
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Um:
Dunno if you’ll be back ml1957 but thought I’d note that my wife thinks the Episcopal Church I attend is just as weird as you think the RCC to be. But in fact, if you ever have a chance to see a truly ancient church, you will note that Christian worship was always liturgical: an altar in the middle where communion was celebrated, a lectern to the side rather than in the center of the platform, indicating that while preaching the Word was important, it wasn’t ‘central’ to the occasion. The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians contains a few lines of what appear to have been a Christian hymn or creed, something which was probably recited or sung. The Book of Revelation makes it clear that worship in Heaven is going to be highly formal and liturgical. There will likely be lots of knee-bowing, candles, and incense. The Mass may have elements you find offensive (veneration of Saints, etcetera) but it’s basic elements were likely designed within the lifetime of the Apostles. Church in the first century probably DIDN’T look like a Billy Graham crusade or a tent revival. NOT that those things are bad but they were not the normative way in which people are likely to have worshipped.
I don’t think it will matter much whether there will be a trademark on Pope JPII’s statues or icons. A trademark is issued by a goverment patent office and allows a distributor ‘exclusive rights’ to a product. Were you perhaps thinking of an ‘Imprimatur’, which is sometimes affixed to WRITTEN Catholic documents to indicate that there is nothing objectionable in the document? Or perhaps you were thinking of the papal ‘bulla’ ( the seal affixed to certain Papal documents)? Or, finally, the only other thing I can think you might be wondering about is whether or not statuary of Pope JPII would be accompanied by an ‘indulgence’, which was one of the issues which Martin Luther raised ruckus about in the Reformation. If you make it back to the forum, perhaps you can clarify.
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mercygate
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mercygate:
Roman Catholic Denominations. You are needlessly contentious. Besides I happen not to be an enthusiastic quoter of the 30K number for some of the reasons you cite. This is a thread about “the Pope.” Any “catholic” denomination not in communion with the See of Rome is simply not Catholic. It is Protestant with catholic pretensions. *Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesiam. *
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Gottle_of_Geer
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mercygate:
The same author that you so enthusiastically cite also claims that there are at least 223 distinct Roman Catholic Denominations.
Furthermore, the author indicates that this number can be further broken down to “produce 2,942 separate denominations”.
I don’t think that the author of the World Christian Encyclopedia “grabbed that number out of the air”, do you?
If you believe the 30,000 figure estimate and cite it as authoritative shouldn’t you take the figure on RCC denominations as authoritative as well?
FWIW, I doubt very much that either figure has much to do with the ecclesiology of either group.
I would very much like to see how David Barrett arrived at the figures in question: IOW - what was the method he used in doing his sums ? ##
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mrS4ntA
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That’s because often people are raising difficulties to a wrong understanding of the doctrine.
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EA_Man
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Gottle of Geer:
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EA_Man
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EA_Man
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Catholic Herald: “A scholarly compilation, invaluable for the planning of evangelization.”
National Catholic Reporter: “A feat unparalleled since Caesar Augustus issued his famous decree ‘for a census of the whole world’.”
National Catholic News Service: “It outdistances everything that has yet been published.”
globalchristianity.org/gem-about.htm
National Catholic Reporter: “A feat unparalleled since Caesar Augustus issued his famous decree ‘for a census of the whole world’.”
National Catholic News Service: “It outdistances everything that has yet been published.”
globalchristianity.org/gem-about.htm
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iamback2tlk
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The pope seems to have the authority to make changes in doctrine. As you campare popes each one has his oun influence. One pope may be more liberal and another may be more conseritive.
Can a pope be a woman? Does the current pope permit women to be priests? Are Gay priests removed from duty?
Can a pope be a woman? Does the current pope permit women to be priests? Are Gay priests removed from duty?
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iamback2tlk
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Does the pope read this website? If not do other robed men brief him of what this site is saying?
I know he has an email addy, but I doubt he is able to read a tiny percentage of them.
Is pope jonh paul with God in heaven right now? If so does he have a closer relationship with him then a non pope has?
I know he has an email addy, but I doubt he is able to read a tiny percentage of them.
Is pope jonh paul with God in heaven right now? If so does he have a closer relationship with him then a non pope has?
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mercygate
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See post #303. Doctrine may mature but it does not fundamentally change.
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There are profound ontological reasons why women are not ordained to priesthood. Another thread.
Also another thread. The Church distinguishes same sex attraction (SSA), which is not intrinsically sinful, from unchaste behavior (which is sinful). The Church tends to use the word “gay” only when referring to the homosexual lifestyle. A man with SSA may be a perfectly chaste and holy man. He would certainly not be removed from his duties, while a man who has been found to be unchaste (either with men or with women) may very well be removed. This is a matter of discipline, not doctrine.
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