The primacy of Scripture?

[Joshua27]

thank you for your response. the Power is in God alone. but he does use the ordinary for extraordinary purposes. this is biblical. what about when the apostle paul was healing people, and the Spirit of God was working so much through him, that even the hankerchiefs people touched enacted a healing? how about the prophets bones in the old testament. when a man fell dead into the prophets grave, and happeded to touch the bones, he came alive again. even if the focus of prayer is destroyed, that does nothing to diminish, what is behind the focus. i dont feel anyones faith would be destroyed. but by the same token, since they are just images, such as a cross or a statue of the Blessed Mother, would it then be alright for someone to intentionally vandelize or destroy these images? would you not feel bad, if someone intentionally vandelized a statue of Mary in some poor old persons front yard? there is a reason why i ask this. peace

Oh, no! I agree that one’s property is their property. Yes, of course intentional vandelism or destruction is wrong (“do unto others…” & “do not covet your neightbor’s…”). Indeed I’d feel very remorseful and sorrowful because something belonging to that poor person was taken from them…but is it more sorrowful because it was a specific religous relic (religion neutral)? No, I don’t feel so. Was it still valuable to them? Yes, I think so…but then again we aren’t to store-up any treasures here on earth, but in heaven, right?

A more interesting rhetorical question would be: What if God destroyed all of our statues, paintings and relics (religion neutral) and then returned to heaven (not saying a word)? If God uses the natural, what if a great earthquake swallowed up our relics, would we believe God was “speaking” to us or would we write it off as merely a natural disaster?

 

[benidict]

Oh, no! I agree that one’s property is their property. Yes, of course intentional vandelism or destruction is wrong (“do unto others…” & “do not covet your neightbor’s…”). Indeed I’d feel very remorseful and sorrowful because something belonging to that poor person was taken from them…but is it more sorrowful because it was a specific religous relic (religion neutral)? No, I don’t feel so. Was it still valuable to them? Yes, I think so…but then again we aren’t to store-up any treasures here on earth, but in heaven, right?

A more interesting rhetorical question would be: What if God destroyed all of our statues, paintings and relics (religion neutral) and then returned to heaven (not saying a word)? If God uses the natural, what if a great earthquake swallowed up our relics, would we believe God was “speaking” to us or would we write it off as merely a natural disaster?

why would God do that. did he not give the Children of Israel the Ark, the candlesticks the incense, the shewbread. the ephod? etc. etc. etc. i think God has less problems with relics than most non-Catholics do. did not paul state in Galations, i portrayed nothing to you but Christ Cruicified, while i was with you. apparently, he had no problem using symbols to convey a message. or how bout this one. i believe it was in ephesus, where he used the alter to the unknown god. to introduce the Gospel to these people. just because we use natural means to convey the supernatural does not mean we are storing up treasures here on earth. im glad you would see and elderly persons statue of Mary as important to them, and that it would bother you if some idiot destroyed it. oh and incidentally, are you married? and if so, do you wear a wedding band? peace

 

[Joshua27]

I will just address this question: As a Vietnam and Desert Storm veteran I can tell you this. Although I was not in country, I did spend my time off the coast supporting the bravest of the brave. I wore crucifix, I had a Rosary, and I had a bible with me. These were the only “Tangible” symbols that provided a “connection” to God in a world of isolation, conflict, desolation, and despair. Do the symbols have supernatural power, no. Do these symbols provide a sense of focus is the midst of chaos? Yes most definitely. I can’t tell you how many times I would reach up to my neck and hold the crucifix and ask “Lord Jesus help me” before any perilous or dangerous task, and why not? You ask, “Why is their faith stored in their jewelry” ever hear of a lightning rod? Just kidding, but think of it as a focusing (coping) mechanism. No, I do not worship them or think they have divine powers.

I can’t begin to know what that’s like…again I only go off of what I was told from those in such a situation. Thanks for your reply.

 

[benidict]

wmscott:
my uncle served in the USMC from viet nam to somolia. what branch were you in? and thank you for your service. peace

 

[eucharisteo]

This is what I mean. I have not problem with it and believe that most Protestants claiming to believe in scripture alone merely ignore these passages because they are scrupulous. Some Catholics suffer from doubt too. We pray for you all the time.

Acts 19:11-12:

And God was doing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that even **handkerchiefs **or aprons that had touched his skin were carried away to the sick, and their diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them

.
Acts 5:12-16:

Now many signs and wonders were regularly done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico. None of the rest dared join them, but** the people held them in high esteem**. And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women, so that they even carried out the sick into the streets and laid them on cots and mats, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

2 Kings 13:20-21:

So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, behold, a marauding band was seen and the man was thrown into the grave of Elisha, and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived and stood on his feet.

 

[wmscott]

my uncle served in the USMC from viet nam to somolia. what branch were you in? and thank you for your service. peace

Us Navy 73-93, I spent the summer of my 18th birthday of the coast of Vietnam in the South China Seas launching planes from an aircraft carrier. We supported operations until the fall in 75, and then some of the Cambodia and Laos stuff. Desert Shield and Storm in the Persian Gulf, again aircraft carriers. You are welcome. Peace.

 

[Hisalone]

This is what I mean. I have not problem with it and believe that most Protestants claiming to believe in scripture alone merely ignore these passages because they are scrupulous. Some Catholics suffer from doubt too. We pray for you all the time.

Acts 19:11-12:.
Acts 5:12-16: 2 Kings 13:20-21:

​

The presence of God which was upon the prophets of old and is within the saints of new is called the annointing. The annointing which is misunderstood and which has been “marketed” by men of dishonor is nothing more the presence of God in, on, or around a person.
This annointing was manifest on the handkerchiefs of Paul and the shadow of Peter. This is also the annointing that remained on the bones of Elisha.
Handkerchiefs and relics can become idols in themselves if people begin to look at the object instead of God for healing. The brass snake on the pole was destroyed when the Israelites made it into an idol. Did the Iraelites think the brass snake was God? No of course not.
Yet the report is they turned the brass snake into an idol. So what happened between the time the brass snake became a instrument for healing and the time it had to be destroyed?
God spoke creation into existence. Many of us hold His word to the highest esteem. God Himself in Ps 138:2 says he esteems His word above His name. The Jews were afraid to utter the name of God yet God holds His word above that. That is the point of my thread. I thank you for your responses and I know I wont change your outlook.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hisalone…

How would you have survived if you lived before the printing press?

How would you trust anyone to share with you the gospels as you would not believe the monks of Ireland who were the ones who saved the Word from the plight afflicting Europe…the monasteries and sources of written Scripture being destroyed? I am assuming you are of European descent. Correct me if i am wrong.

Really, what would you have done with the oral tradition? There were no bibles available for the common people before the printery.

 

[eucharisteo]

Hisalone…

How would you have survived if you lived before the printing press?

.

:bigyikes:

 

[eucharisteo]

The presence of God which was upon the **prophets **of old and is within the saints of new is called the annointing. The **annointing **which is **misunderstood **and which has been “marketed” by men of dishonor is nothing more the presence of God in, on, or around a person.

was manifest on the **handkerchiefs **of Paul and the **shadow **of Peter. This is also the **annointing **that remained on the **bones **of Elisha.

and **relics **can become **idols **in themselves if people begin to look at the object instead of God for healing. The **brass snake **on the **pole **was destroyed when the Israelites made it into an idol. Did the Iraelites think the brass snake was God? No of course not.
Yet the report is they turned the brass snake into an idol. So what happened between the time the brass snake became a[n] instrument for healing and the time it had to be destroyed?

were afraid to utter the name of God yet God holds His word above that. That is the point of my thread. I thank you for your responses and I know I wont change your outlook.

You seem very confused.
Were the early Christians told to do away with their scarves? The pilgramige you seem to think people are going on are merely to see the art that was produced way after the time of the early Christians. Have you not heard of the bones of Peter and the martyrs yet. And what about the pictures and icons painted all over the walls of the catacombs. How in the world do you think you’ll ever come out of this dark place the evil one has lured you into? I’m sorry but you sound so bazaar that I’m just confounded by your lack of history and understanding. I really feel sorry for you because your conscience has been darkened by this hate and to the point it seems you will never return. Your gospel of hate has no place in Christendom. It is not the gospel of Christ but of the unholy one. Please, PLEASE read your bible more. And while you’re at it obtain some legitimate historical books to fill in the blanks, not this fundamentalist brainwashing garbage produced to support the gospel of hate.

 

[KathleenGee]

Hisalone,…

People are trying to tell you something…you are starting to cause me to worry about you…

I see this room you live in,…no pictures, no flowers, nothing about people…a lonely cat perhaps…a lightbulb without a shade…and a Bible sitting open on a small table…a hard wood chair facing the bible…and your computer…

Of course I don’t know where you live or how you live…but where is the humanity???

 

[benidict]

You seem very confused.
Were the early Christians told to do away with their scarves? The pilgramige you seem to think people are going on are merely to see the art that was produced way after the time of the early Christians. Have you not heard of the bones of Peter and the martyrs yet. And what about the pictures and icons painted all over the walls of the catacombs. How in the world do you think you’ll ever come out of this dark place the evil one has lured you into? I’m sorry but you sound so bazaar that I’m just confounded by your lack of history and understanding. I really feel sorry for you because your conscience has been darkened by this hate and to the point it seems you will never return. Your gospel of hate has no place in Christendom. It is not the gospel of Christ but of the unholy one. Please, PLEASE read your bible more. And while you’re at it obtain some legitimate historical books to fill in the blanks, not this fundamentalist brainwashing garbage produced to support the gospel of hate.

my friend. just one thing, and no offense intended. i think his alone ended up this way BECAUSE of reading the bible more without the aid of a priest, or an equally qualified individual. may i humbly suggest, he read his bible more, with the aid of a proper authority? totally agree about the fundamentalist brain washing though. but for some reason, that type of washing does not leave a person very clean. sad…peace

 

[Hisalone]

Hisalone…

How would you have survived if you lived before the printing press?

How would you trust anyone to share with you the gospels as you would not believe the monks of Ireland who were the ones who saved the Word from the plight afflicting Europe…the monasteries and sources of written Scripture being destroyed? I am assuming you are of European descent. Correct me if i am wrong.

Really, what would you have done with the oral tradition? There were no bibles available for the common people before the printery.

Can you answer these two questions Kathleen?
When did the brass snake go from an instrument of healing to an idol? And what did Kin Hezekiah see to make him want to destroy the brass snake.

 

[Hisalone]

:bigyikes:

How did Enoch and Noah survive?

 

[Hisalone]

You seem very confused.
Were the early Christians told to do away with their scarves? The pilgramige you seem to think people are going on are merely to see the art that was produced way after the time of the early Christians. Have you not heard of the bones of Peter and the martyrs yet. And what about the pictures and icons painted all over the walls of the catacombs. How in the world do you think you’ll ever come out of this dark place the evil one has lured you into? I’m sorry but you sound so bazaar that I’m just confounded by your lack of history and understanding. I really feel sorry for you because your conscience has been darkened by this hate and to the point it seems you will never return. Your gospel of hate has no place in Christendom. It is not the gospel of Christ but of the unholy one. Please, PLEASE read your bible more. And while you’re at it obtain some legitimate historical books to fill in the blanks, not this fundamentalist brainwashing garbage produced to support the gospel of hate.

Please address these two points.
When did the brass snake change from being a instrument of healing to an idol? What did Hezekiah see that made him destroy the brass snake?

 

[Hisalone]

my friend. just one thing, and no offense intended. i think his alone ended up this way BECAUSE of reading the bible more without the aid of a priest, or an equally qualified individual. may i humbly suggest, he read his bible more, with the aid of a proper authority? totally agree about the fundamentalist brain washing though. but for some reason, that type of washing does not leave a person very clean. sad…peace

Maybe you can answer.
When did the brass snake change from being an instrument of healing to an idol?
What did King Hezekiah see that made him destroy the brass snake?

 

[KathleenGee]

Hisalone,

Frankly I have not meditated on those types of passages, they are so creepy…

Do you know why Our Lord also gave us our neighbor? To let us know when we need help…

H E L P!!! Find someone who is mature and balanced to help you with Scripture. When people go overboard with God…they usually are disconnecting from people…

Remember, Jesus is True God and True Man…you are drifting away from Christ’s humanity…you are on a sinking ship!!! You are losing your own humanity when you turn away from Christ’s…and you loose your connection and understanding with other people…

Do you know what scruples are? Do you know it was Luther’s scruples and corrupt clergy that made the perfect storm of the reformation? Scruples are the first inroads to insanity…!!! They are the beginning of mental illnesses…so get a spiritual guide whose faith is greater than the Catholic Church’s…meaning somebody who is not co-dependent…somebody who is not blaming others…but can look at the Lord for His merits…He has alot more than we do.

 

[Hisalone]

Hisalone,

Frankly I have not meditated on those types of passages, they are so creepy…

Do you know why Our Lord also gave us our neighbor? To let us know when we need help…

H E L P!!! Find someone who is mature and balanced to help you with Scripture. When people go overboard with God…they usually are disconnecting from people…

Remember, Jesus is True God and True Man…you are drifting away from Christ’s humanity…you are on a sinking ship!!! You are losing your own humanity when you turn away from Christ’s…and you loose your connection and understanding with other people…

Do you know what scruples are? Do you know it was Luther’s scruples and corrupt clergy that made the perfect storm of the reformation? Scruples are the first inroads to insanity…!!! They are the beginning of mental illnesses…so get a spiritual guide whose faith is greater than the Catholic Church’s…meaning somebody who is not co-dependent…somebody who is not blaming others…but can look at the Lord for His merits…He has alot more than we do.

So you cant answer?

 

[KathleenGee]

No.

Your turn. Never heard of it…is it that snake from the 10 commandments movie???

 

[eucharisteo]

Hisalone,…

People are trying to tell you something…you are starting to cause me to worry about you…

I see this room you live in,…no pictures, no flowers, nothing about people…a lonely cat perhaps…a lightbulb without a shade…and a Bible sitting open on a small table…a hard wood chair facing the bible…and your computer…

Of course I don’t know where you live or how you live…but where is the humanity???

I believe Hisalone needs to empty his wallet and remove all the pictures of his family off of the walls. You better get rid of you wife and children, assuming you have settled down. Why? Because you might be tempted to worship your wife and the ground she walks on, like I do my wife. Maybe my wife has turned into an idol. Hmmmn, that should be a justified reason to get rid of her. Let me go test my theory…see how she feels about it…
…
…
…
OUCH! That hurt. Now look what you’ve done to me. This’ll take a few weeks to heal. It’s a good thing I’m not working, they might get suspicious of spouse abuse now. And I stopped at taking pictures off the wall. I hate to see what she’d do if I mentioned the last part of my idea…get rid of the wife. Hmmmn. sounds like a good idea in theory.

No offense but your logic really needs work. I’ve always worried about people that thought like that and made a reputation for refuting baloney like that of which got me a nice Book of Daniel commentary at the end of the school year…oh and a picture of the Bible Chair Director on a plaque. Want to guess which file I think that belongs in?

You better get rid of your bible too because you might get tempted to worship it. Oh, too late. Your bible has become your idol.