The problem of 'demon drink'

[rayne89]

I think you are wrong emeraldisle. I learned drinking in moderation from my parents. My husband’s parents don’t drink a drop. Whose child grew up to be an alcoholic? It wasn’t my parents child.

Even though we don’t keep alcohol in the home my daughter does see me drink on occasion and she sees my parents drink on occasion. She’s see’s family friends drink on occasion. She’s see’s what responsible drinking looks like. There was no responsible drinking mirrored for my husband. What my husband did see is and experience is physical abuse, verbal abuse and extended family members that regularly got falling down drunk.

I think you mean well but truly I think you are completely wrong. I don’t think you understand problem drinking at all.

What you propose is like asking people to stop using any and all sharp knives because people get killed with them. Maybe a few lives will be spared, but most likely the killer will pick a baseball bat or gun and kill anyway. There are much deeper problems at the root of alcoholism and problem drinking. Those are this issues that need to be addressed. Ofcourse that is much harder than this quick fix you propose but if you really cared about the issue that is what you would be addressing.

 

[Scottgun]

The “go the extra mile” is a false dilemma. It suggests that we either “go the extra mile” and reject alcohol because if not, then we are somehow lesser Christians. It’s trying to sneak alcohol into the category of sinful through the back door. Rejecting alcohol would be an occasion of merit if one did it because they enjoyed alcohol and recognized it’s moral legitimacy, but gave it up as a sacrifice. But it wouldn’t be if one disliked it and thought everyone should be on board with their pet peeve.

The influence on others argument does not work either because it cuts both ways. For every one that says, “Ohh he drinks, those darn Christians.” there is another who thinks, “Ya know, I think I wouldn’t be so apprehensive of Christians if I thought they were not so uptight as to enjoy a beer with me now and then.” And we are back to the only governing point: drinking alcohol is morally acceptable.

Not only is alcohol legitimate, it’s salutary in this age of the heresy of healthism. Mark Shea pointed out that when Christians abandon the Sacraments, they attempt to fill the hole with a lesser substitutes. So instead of Baptism we get things like child dedications. The same happens with absolute moral norms. People reject absolute moral norms like the evil of abortion, contraception, etc. But leave a gaping hole and try to fill it by graduating non-absolute moral norms to absolute ones. So instead of the common sense moral norm that says to take reasonable care of the body and the environment, instead we get environmentalism and *healthism *which subordinate all other things to it and becomes a form of idolatry.

 

[blessedtoo]

Your “zero influence” statement is just your opinion because you have no factual evidence to support this sweeping statement. I think that by not taking alcohol you won’t influence everyone not to take alcohol but you can influence some people not to take alcohol.
So if by not taking alcohol you influence one person not to take alcohol and thereby prevent this person from becoming an alcoholic, or a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, or a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a person who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion.

You are under the false assumption that one person abstaining from alcohol can PREVENT another from drinking. While it may be true that someone who only enjoys an occasional social drink will avoid it while in your company, it is certainly not the case when associating with problem drinkers. As an ex-drunk, I can assure you that non-drinkers had ZERO influence on my alcohol intake. My best friend of 35 years NEVER drank with me, in an effort to “influence” my behavior.

Alcoholism is a compulsion that must be treated to be corrected. Alcohol itself is not the culprit but the means to express deeper psychological, spiritual, and emotional problems. These problems will not be addressed using your approach.

In the case of drunk driving, I do believe you could have an influence on others if you do not provide the alcohol in your home to guests. If you specifically choose activities that do no include alcohol consumption, that would curtail the opportunity to get drunk. It would probably be more effective to stay sober and offer to DRIVE the drinker home, but that’s just my opinion.

The abortion correlation is meaningless. There is no connection between someone who drinks and someone who chooses abortion. While there may be some relationship between getting drunk and having out-of-wedlock sex, it does not follow that the drunkeness would lead to a person having an abortion.

Obviously, you are free to do as you wish but you should be clear on WHY you are doing it. As a sacrifice for God, a form of fasting, it’s a great offering. But as an altruistic endeavor to save your fellow man?

 

[Corki]

Your “zero influence” statement is just your opinion because you have no factual evidence to support this sweeping statement. I think that by not taking alcohol you won’t influence everyone not to take alcohol but you can influence some people not to take alcohol. Also it’s worth remembering that there are many very good examples of people in the Bible who “went the extra mile” out of love for people and their actions didn’t influence everyone. Indeed the greatest Man who ever lived, Jesus Christ went the extra mile more than anyone else and He was rejected by most people and crucified on the cross.

So if by not taking alcohol you influence one person not to take alcohol and thereby prevent this person from becoming an alcoholic, or a drunk driver who kills someone and/or himself, or a drunken person who assaults someone(a wife or children), a person who has sex while drunk and then gets pregnant and has an abortion. Well then I think this is a very worthy thing to do and what does it cost someone to not take alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives and instead take any number of very nice non-alcoholic drinks which don’t kill people and destroy lives.

Imo there’s no valid reason for taking alcohol but there is a very good reason for not taking alcohol and that is “love for your neighbor”.

There are plenty of valid reasons for taking alcohol, in moderation. First and foremost, the gift of the vine was specifically chosen by God the Son as part of the matter for His Most Precious Body and Blood. There are health benefits to moderate consumption of wine. Many meals are more enjoyable when a good bottle of wine is served with the food. All of these are good, non-sinful reasons to enjoy alcohol.

The fact is that you have no evidence that the example of Catholics abstaining from alcoholic beverages would be a net gain for society. The “just one person” argument isn’t valid. By that logic, Catholics should drive cars because we might save “just one person” from dying in an auto accident.

Furthermore, who is to say that we don’t save more people by being examples of prudence and temperance when it comes to consumption of alcohol? There are some people I am more responsible for than others - my own children. They were given to me to care for and to educate. The example I and my husband set of enjoying the gifts of God, including food, wine, technology in a responsible manner is just as likely (or more so) to inspire in them a life of prudent choices as would our abstinaining from alcohol. In fact, total abstinence may do more harm than good as an example since it teaches that the substance itself is more important than the power of personal responsibilty.

You can’t make statements like “alcohol kills people and destroys lives” as absolutes. You could also say that sex kills people and destroys lives, which is sometimes true, but without it the human race would cease to exist. Exercise kills people and destroys lives but I certainly wouldn’t advocate a prohibition against it. Money kills people and destroys lives but I would have a hard time putting a roof over my head without it. etc., etc., etc.

 

[Lance]

The issue is simple are Christians willing to go the extra mile by not taking alcohol in order to influence people not to take alcohol, which kills people and destroys lives.

I am one Christian who is not willing to give up alcohol for the simple reason that I don’t believe your theory but if you don’t want to drink feel free to abstain but don’t try to make the rest of us feel guilty because we don’t believe drinking responsibly is bad.

 

[emeraldisle]

I think you are wrong emeraldisle. I learned drinking in moderation from my parents. My husband’s parents don’t drink a drop. Whose child grew up to be an alcoholic? It wasn’t my parents child.

Even though we don’t keep alcohol in the home my daughter does see me drink on occasion and she sees my parents drink on occasion. She’s see’s family friends drink on occasion. She’s see’s what responsible drinking looks like. There was no responsible drinking mirrored for my husband. What my husband did see is and experience is physical abuse, verbal abuse and extended family members that regularly got falling down drunk.

I think you mean well but truly I think you are completely wrong. I don’t think you understand problem drinking at all.

What you propose is like asking people to stop using any and all sharp knives because people get killed with them. Maybe a few lives will be spared, but most likely the killer will pick a baseball bat or gun and kill anyway. There are much deeper problems at the root of alcoholism and problem drinking. Those are this issues that need to be addressed. Ofcourse that is much harder than this quick fix you propose but if you really cared about the issue that is what you would be addressing.

Personal experience is subjective, i mean someone else can use their personal experience to cancel out the point you are making with your personal experience. There are people in the UK who are taking alcohol moderately but yet still more and more people are dying from taking alcohol. Why isn’t their moderate example influencing people? Should we bury our heads in the sand and wish this serious problem away.

Your sharp knives comment is like the food/sex argument because believe or not sharp knives need to be used to cut different materials, they have a valid purpose. Also your comments about me, “if i really cared about this issue”, well can you read my mind, do you know me well enough to make such a statement?

 

[emeraldisle]

The “go the extra mile” is a false dilemma. It suggests that we either “go the extra mile” and reject alcohol because if not, then we are somehow lesser Christians. It’s trying to sneak alcohol into the category of sinful through the back door. Rejecting alcohol would be an occasion of merit if one did it because they enjoyed alcohol and recognized it’s moral legitimacy, but gave it up as a sacrifice. But it wouldn’t be if one disliked it and thought everyone should be on board with their pet peeve.

The influence on others argument does not work either because it cuts both ways. For every one that says, “Ohh he drinks, those darn Christians.” there is another who thinks, “Ya know, I think I wouldn’t be so apprehensive of Christians if I thought they were not so uptight as to enjoy a beer with me now and then.” And we are back to the only governing point: drinking alcohol is morally acceptable.

Not only is alcohol legitimate, it’s salutary in this age of the heresy of healthism. Mark Shea pointed out that when Christians abandon the Sacraments, they attempt to fill the hole with a lesser substitutes. So instead of Baptism we get things like child dedications. The same happens with absolute moral norms. People reject absolute moral norms like the evil of abortion, contraception, etc. But leave a gaping hole and try to fill it by graduating non-absolute moral norms to absolute ones. So instead of the common sense moral norm that says to take reasonable care of the body and the environment, instead we get environmentalism and *healthism *which subordinate all other things to it and becomes a form of idolatry.

I’ve already stated in this tread that I believe the Bible gives Christians permission to drink wine and that it clearly says that drunkenness is a sin. My going the extra mile is based upon Christian love not duty. Also I’ve already stated that the Bible shows Christians that if you go the extra mile out of love you won’t necessarily influence all people by your good example. But this doesn’t mean you shouldn’t go the extra mile out of love for other people.

 

[emeraldisle]

You are under the false assumption that one person abstaining from alcohol can PREVENT another from drinking. While it may be true that someone who only enjoys an occasional social drink will avoid it while in your company, it is certainly not the case when associating with problem drinkers. As an ex-drunk, I can assure you that non-drinkers had ZERO influence on my alcohol intake. My best friend of 35 years NEVER drank with me, in an effort to “influence” my behavior.

Alcoholism is a compulsion that must be treated to be corrected. Alcohol itself is not the culprit but the means to express deeper psychological, spiritual, and emotional problems. These problems will not be addressed using your approach.

In the case of drunk driving, I do believe you could have an influence on others if you do not provide the alcohol in your home to guests. If you specifically choose activities that do no include alcohol consumption, that would curtail the opportunity to get drunk. It would probably be more effective to stay sober and offer to DRIVE the drinker home, but that’s just my opinion.

The abortion correlation is meaningless. There is no connection between someone who drinks and someone who chooses abortion. While there may be some relationship between getting drunk and having out-of-wedlock sex, it does not follow that the drunkeness would lead to a person having an abortion.

Obviously, you are free to do as you wish but you should be clear on WHY you are doing it. As a sacrifice for God, a form of fasting, it’s a great offering. But as an altruistic endeavor to save your fellow man?

I’m saying you might influence someone not to drink and I think this is a very worthwhile thing to do in the light of the fact that people are dying from taking alcohol and lives are being destroyed by the use of alcohol.

“Alcoholism is a compulsion that must be treated to be corrected. Alcohol itself is not the culprit but the means to express deeper psychological, spiritual, and emotional problems. These problems will not be addressed using your approach.”

The report in the op is from the British Medical Association(BMA), they are trying to treat people re physical, emotional & psychological problems but it’s not working. Can Christians clearly demonstrate the fact that people can live without taking alcohol, period?

 

[emeraldisle]

There are plenty of valid reasons for taking alcohol, in moderation. First and foremost, the gift of the vine was specifically chosen by God the Son as part of the matter for His Most Precious Body and Blood. There are health benefits to moderate consumption of wine. Many meals are more enjoyable when a good bottle of wine is served with the food. All of these are good, non-sinful reasons to enjoy alcohol.

The fact is that you have no evidence that the example of Catholics abstaining from alcoholic beverages would be a net gain for society. The “just one person” argument isn’t valid. By that logic, Catholics should drive cars because we might save “just one person” from dying in an auto accident.

Furthermore, who is to say that we don’t save more people by being examples of prudence and temperance when it comes to consumption of alcohol? There are some people I am more responsible for than others - my own children. They were given to me to care for and to educate. The example I and my husband set of enjoying the gifts of God, including food, wine, technology in a responsible manner is just as likely (or more so) to inspire in them a life of prudent choices as would our abstinaining from alcohol. In fact, total abstinence may do more harm than good as an example since it teaches that the substance itself is more important than the power of personal responsibilty.

You can’t make statements like “alcohol kills people and destroys lives” as absolutes. You could also say that sex kills people and destroys lives, which is sometimes true, but without it the human race would cease to exist. Exercise kills people and destroys lives but I certainly wouldn’t advocate a prohibition against it. Money kills people and destroys lives but I would have a hard time putting a roof over my head without it. etc., etc., etc.

Your cars/money argument is like the food, sex, knives comments because people need to use cars (do you want people to go back to using the horse and cart?) & money(do you want to go back to bartering?) However people can live normal functioning lives without taking alcohol but people do need to use money & cars.

Some people in the UK are taking alcohol in moderation but sadly there is a steady increase in the numbers of people dying from the use of alcohol. The moderate users of alcohol are not having much success in influencing other people to take alcohol in moderation.

Can Christians clearly show people that you can live without taking alcohol? Will Christians clearly show by their actions that they care about the fact that the use of alcohol is killing people and destroying lives?

 

[rlg94086]

Your cars/money argument is like the food, sex, knives comments because people need to use cars (do you want people to go back to using the horse and cart?) & money(do you want to go back to bartering?) However people can live normal functioning lives without taking alcohol but people do need to use money & cars.

Some people in the UK are taking alcohol in moderation but sadly there is a steady increase in the numbers of people dying from the use of alcohol. The moderate users of alcohol are not having much success in influencing other people to take alcohol in moderation.

Can Christians clearly show people that you can live without taking alcohol? Will Christians clearly show by their actions that they care about the fact that the use of alcohol is killing people and destroying lives?

Actually, you don’t need a car…I’m not sure where you get that idea. There are people who live quite well without one. In fact, it would be very Christian of you to live as a minimalist - small living quarters, no car, plain dress, only healthy foods to sustain you. There is plenty for you to give up.

 

[Corki]

Your cars/money argument is like the food, sex, knives comments because people need to use cars (do you want people to go back to using the horse and cart?) & money(do you want to go back to bartering?) However people can live normal functioning lives without taking alcohol but people do need to use money & cars.

Can Christians clearly show people that you can live without taking alcohol? Will Christians clearly show by their actions that they care about the fact that the use of alcohol is killing people and destroying lives?

Christians all over the world have shown that they can live without cars, without money and without technology. Doing without these things is valient as a means of self-sacrifice and laudable if done for the purpose of penance or to get closer to God. But doing so generally does not have influence on anyone outside of immediate family and all can be abused to the extent of harm or death.

In the US we had this experiment with Prohibition. It didn’t benefit society and created worse problems than the “demon drink”.

 

[Nordar]

I’ve heard that a regular person feels out of control when he has had too much to drink, whereas an alcoholic starts to feel in control when he has had too much to drink, therein lies the difference.

As an Alcoholic sober 35 years in june, I had to laugh at your explanation.

The very LAST thing an Alcoholic feels is in control, the actual definition of Alcoholism belies that answer.

Alcholism is not about how much or how often one drinks, it is what happens to an Alcoholic when they pick up a drink , They CANNOT control their behaviour or gaurantee what will happen.

 

[Nordar]

Throughout the dinner she may continue to take lady-like sips. I resist the fantasy of hitting her over the head with a baseball bat and telling her to stop torturing the poor drink and finish it off.

.

LOL I know exactly what you mean!

 

[rlg94086]

As an Alcoholic sober 35 years in june, I had to laugh at your explanation.

The very LAST thing an Alcoholic feels is in control, the actual definition of Alcoholism belies that answer.

Alcholism is not about how much or how often one drinks, it is what happens to an Alcoholic when they pick up a drink , They CANNOT control their behaviour or gaurantee what will happen.

I recommend anyone who questions Nordar’s description watch Intervention on A&E. It will break your heart, but you definitely learn about the effects of alcoholism and other addictions.

I gave up alcohol for Lent (it’s usually that or caffeine…or both ) and it is a good sacrifice (I enjoy a Guiness or glass of wine when I’m out with clients), but it is not nearly the hurdle that it is for an alcoholic to quit.

 

[Nordar]

Going the extra-mile is not hiding from alcohol it’s learning how to use alcohol and enjoy it properly. Hiding from alcohol is the easy way out, and is also denying one of God’s greatest gifts to humanity - good drink!

If you come from an alcoholic background, the odds are stacked against you that you will be able to learn how to use alcohol and enjoy it properly. That is an impossibility for an alcoholic, I have a 28 yr old son who has never even tasted a sip of Alcohol, Alcoholism is rampant in both mine and my exhusband’s (he is sober 38 years) families. My son chooses not to drink, he is by no means hiding from it, In his case, the chance that he could have inherited ( According the The American Medical Association, it is hereditary) the tendancy towards Alcoholism is not worth the risk to him.

 

[rlg94086]

If you come from an alcoholic background, the odds are stacked against you that you will be able to learn how to use alcohol and enjoy it properly. That is an impossibility for an alcoholic, I have a 28 yr old son who has never even tasted a sip of Alcohol, Alcoholism is rampant in both mine and my exhusband’s (he is sober 38 years) families. My son chooses not to drink, he is by no means hiding from it, In his case, the chance that he could have inherited ( According the The American Medical Association, it is hereditary) the tendancy towards Alcoholism is not worth the risk to him.

Hi Nordar,

Are there different degrees of alcoholism? I’ve known alcoholics who are much worse than others when it comes to the excess they drink.

 

[Nordar]

Hi Nordar,

Are there different degrees of alcoholism? I’ve known alcoholics who are much worse than others when it comes to the excess they drink.

Nope Alcoholism is Alcoholism, as I said in my other post it is not how much or how often it is what it does to them.

There are heavy drinkers, who can drink as much as an Alcohol and not suffer from Alcoholism.
The only way I can explain it is, I did not have to drink as much as some to go into a blackout ( most of my alcoholism was either blackout drinking were I could remember nothing of what I did or what happened), or gray out drinking were I would remember some things but not all. Plus my personality would change drastically. Now some Alky’s drink far more before their personalities start to change and go into a blackout. There is no difference in how much you drink, it is what it does to you. Did I expain that right? can you understand what I am saying?
I just want to say that suffering and being in the throws of Alcoholism is like being in HELL!

 

[rlg94086]

Nope Alcoholism is Alcoholism, as I said in my other post it is not how much or how often it is what it does to them.

There are heavy drinkers, who can drink as much as an Alcohol and not suffer from Alcoholism.
The only way I can explain it is, I did not have to drink as much as some to go into a blackout ( most of my alcoholism was either blackout drinking were I could remember nothing of what I did or what happened), or gray out drinking were I would remember some things but not all. Plus my personality would change drastically. Now some Alky’s drink far more before their personalities start to change and go into a blackout. There is no difference in how much you drink, it is what it does to you. Did I expain that right? can you understand what I am saying?
I just want to say that suffering and being in the throws of Alcoholism is like being in HELL!

Thanks…that is very clear. The only direct experience I had was with a co-worker whom my wife and I brought food. He was in such a stupor (from alcohol, marijuana or both) that he wasn’t eating. We were able to get him into a facility that night, and he remained sober after treatment for the years that we knew him. He was not someone I would have described as a “heavy drinker.” He doesn’t remember the night we got him help, but he does describe his life before counselling as “hell,” so I can understand your statement.

I’ve known others who drink heavily every night and stay relatively lucid. I guess I can’t be sure if they are an alcoholic or not, but it does appear to be addictive behavior.

 

[Nordar]

Thanks…that is very clear. The only direct experience I had was with a co-worker whom my wife and I brought food. He was in such a stupor (from alcohol, marijuana or both) that he wasn’t eating. We were able to get him into a facility that night, and he remained sober after treatment for the years that we knew him. He was not someone I would have described as a “heavy drinker.” He doesn’t remember the night we got him help, but he does describe his life before counselling as “hell,” so I can understand your statement.

I’ve known others who drink heavily every night and stay relatively lucid. I guess I can’t be sure if they are an alcoholic or not, but it does appear to be addictive behavior.

What a wonderfull thing you and your wife did, yep it is most definately addictive. Alcoholics don’t set out be be so, most of them start out as social drinkers, they are already in the throws of Alcoholism, before they realize it and the addiction has taken total control. It is the desease of denial, I had no idea what alcoholism was (although I had seen it growing up) I didn’t know it was a desease, or that I was suffering from it. I was blessed that God brought me to the doors of AA and I accepted the fact I was one. Some people very sadly do not accept it, I pray for the ones who are still suffering from it!

 

[rlg94086]

What a wonderfull thing you and your wife did, yep it is most definately addictive. Alcoholics don’t set out be be so, most of them start out as social drinkers, they are already in the throws of Alcoholism, before they realize it and the addiction has taken total control. It is the desease of denial, I had no idea what alcoholism was (although I had seen it growing up) I didn’t know it was a desease, or that I was suffering from it. I was blessed that God brought me to the doors of AA and I accepted the fact I was one. Some people very sadly do not accept it, I pray for the ones who are still suffering from it!

I join you in your prayers. As I mentioned earlier, I’ve been watching *Intervention *lately. It is very difficult to watch, because some of the addicts say “no” during the intervention by their loved ones. The show is not a “feel good…everything works out in the end.” It is heartbreaking, especially after watching what their addiction is like and what it does to them. :crying:

They have reported that some of the people who said “no” have gone in for help after seeing themselves on the show. I hope others who aren’t on the show recognize themselves in the examples…or that their relatives/friends point it out to them…and get help. Lives are wasted living in such addiction.

I am happy for you Nordar that you conquered (and continuing the fight) against alcoholism.