The Problem of Evil and Free Will Defense

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"When Rebekah had conceived children by Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad –in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls– she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory
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-The greatest philosopher since the God-man, Jesus Christ; Paul, the Apostle
 
Sorry i post quickly without reading OP too well, this issue is actually dealt in the bible by Jesus himself: disciples ask from him when they meet a blind man in John 1-5. There it is shown that problem of evil is non-existent, I quote: “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,’ said Jesus, 'but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.” John 3.

Suffering is not evil, only our not accepting suffering is. Suffering is what God does to us to make our souls pure, and hence He cares more the soul then the body and He let’s us suffer (He makes a choice to try to save our forever living soul on the expense of our body suffering), so that later he can forgive us for all we’ve done. This is not a protestant view though, but it is quite orthodox Christianity. God also continues our suffering in purgatory if necessary to our salvation (Most likely it is).

Hence the suffering is caused by us not accepting God as well as hell is, you could say we are mostly living in hell at the moment if we are not accepting God and we therefore suffer greatly, if we accept God however even those people who seemingly suffer, like Padre Pio with his wounds and sickness or Christ under his torture are not suffering in the true sense of the word, their body is suffering but the burning love in side them let’s them rejoice.

Problem of evil only exists if you do not understand the tenets of Christianity.

Remember the poor guy in the bible sitting thirsty and hungry in the rich guys door step, being sick and suffering and probably dying in hunger. Remember later what happened to him? After death he was at the bosom of Abraham and it was rich mans turn to suffer.

The whole problem is that we think suffering as something evil when in fact it is the necessity of our salvation. Without it we cannot be saved as orthodoxy and many Saints have shown us. Suffering is only there because we do not want to do what God wants, and we turn away from him. In this way to understand Christianity (and i think it is the right way) suffering as a problem is just badly studied Christianity. Maybe it is problem for Buddhist or something or deist but for Christian we embrace suffering.

You can claim that to think this way is foolish but after all Christian is supposed to be a fool for Christ…

(Sorry i just realize you where debating on certain argument, the free will defense, well i would say that defense is faulty if you understand suffering the way i posted…)
 
God has determined from eternity what will happen and His providence is what brings it to pass. The Heidelberg Catechism describes God’s providence this way: “The almighty and everywhere present power of God; whereby, as it were by His hand, He upholds and governs heaven, earth, and all creatures; so that herbs and grass, rain and drought, fruitful and barren years, meat and drink, health and sickness, riches and poverty, yea and all things come, not by chance, but by His Fatherly hand…since creatures are so in His hand, that without His will they cannot so much as move.” Everything happens by the upholding and governing of all things by God’s own hand. “In Him, we live, move, and have our being.” Acts 17

The Bible is clear that this is the case with the so called problem of moral evil. God is behind our temptations. James 1. In the firs several verses he is unashamed to attribute the cause and purpose of our trials as coming from our benevolent God. Then James moves on to address the issue of temptation as to it’s use as an enticement to sin. Yet he does so as a clarification of a potential misunderstanding. When we sin, we tend to shift the blame from ourselves to others. At times we might say something like, ‘I would not have sinned if so and so had not enticed me.’ The excuses we make can cloud the issue of responsibility. And the issue can be made so cloudy, that we can blame God for our sin. However, though God uses temptation in order to test us, James is careful to point out that God cannot be blamed if we sin. He moves from, pieros, which is the testing from God, to pierosmos the inward effect of being drawn away to sin. For instanc we can say, “I am tempted by that television” referring to the outward temptation presented by the television itself. Or we can mean we are tempted so as to be inwardly drawn toward the television. From pieros to pierosmos.

In verse 13, “let no man when he is tempted say, he is tempted of God.” That is, do not say God is the culpable source of your enticement to sin. “For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt any man.” The issue is sin, something which God cannot do. He can’t sin because there is no Law placed over Him by which He could transgress. He is the law, which means if He were to sin it would be against Himself. But since He only ever acts according to His own inherent moral perfections, the idea of God being tempted to evil is absurd. Therefore when a man commits evil, it’s not because God is evil, but because we are evil.
“But each man is tempted when he is drawn away by his own lust and enticed.” Our lust is the blamable source of sin, not God. Consider Romans 7:7. The act of lusting (epithumea) is bound up in the commandment which forbids coveting (epithumeo). To covet is to set your heart upon that which is forbidden by God. Lust is a desire for something God forbids. It is an inordinate desire, either for something God expressly forbids, or for an excess of something God approves, such as eating food.
Code:
Lust is not of God. Look at 1 John 2:16. Lust is of the world (the flesh, the eyes, the pride of life). Therefore God cannot be blamed for our inordinate desires.
See how this is demonstrated in the first sin committed by man. When Adam sinned he blamed God and His providence. When questioned about what he had done, Adam answered, “the woman whom You gave Me, she gave me of the fruit and I ate.” Adam was right about God appointing the means which led to his temptation. Adam could have gone a step further with it and said, “God, by your providence, Eve had the tree before her, the serpent came and called her attention to it, she ate, then offered it to me. You had so orchestrated everything which led to this temptation.” In fact, Adam’s answer implied as much. But God did not accept his answer because Adam also implied something false. He was implying that he was an innocent victim of providential circumstances. But God gave to Adam, as He gives to all men, a role of active involvement in His providence; a role in the context of a moral law by which God obligates all men to the duty of obedience. Therefore in spite of God’s provision of the test, Adam was morally culpable because his duty was to obey God.
We see this more explicitly laid out in Eve’s case, Gen. 3:6. If the Devil succeeded at anything, it was at preoccupying Eve’s thoughts with the tree. But notice that her thoughts about the tree were not about how awful it would be to disobey her loving heavenly Father, or about God’s threat of death were she to disobey. Rather, her thoughts about the tree accorded with a desire for the forbidden, she was lusting after the fruit. Before she even took the fruit in her hand, she took hold of it in her heart as she saw it was good for food: lust of the flesh, desirable to the eyes: lust of the eyes, and good to make one wise: the pride of life.
We are active agents in the providence of God, responsible for how we act and react when temptations come before us. God is the one ultimately in control of how we respond to His testing. He determines what the test will reveal as to what is in the the heart whether grace or corruption. The Bible teaches that if our corruption is revealed, it is because God has withdrawn the sanctifying influences of His grace from us. He is exposing our sin and our need of His grace, as was in the case of Hezekiah. 2Chron 32. But, if we resist the enticement of lust as Abraham did in Gen. 22, then God is demonstrating the preserving and renewing power of His grace.
 
About this problem i wanna tell you one thing that makes your utopia thoughts utterly useless, that is Dr. Graig’s syllogism:

If there is God there is no unnecessary evil

There is God

Therefore there is no unnecessary evil…

That pretty much does it, and follows logically on what we think God is, that he is omnipotent and so on and so on…

you have to proof that either one of those premises are wrong to disprove this…
 
After some reflection on this argument I have come to one conclusion:

We seem to impose on God that he “chose” a reality from an infinite set of choices. The fact is, that it is in God’s nature to choose the greatest good or perfection. So God chooses the perfect reality. So He creates in a unique manner owing to the greatest good. In this reality evil does exist, but only tolerated to advance good. Fundamentally, we know free will must exist for free love to exist. That is the greater good.

God’s omniscience does not imply determinism. It’s like me asking, “You just read my post. Does the fact that you know you just read it imply you had no choice but to read it in the first place?” God is eternity.
 
I realize in my above quote I’m falling into a slightly deist mentality. So I would refer people to the article on predestination for more information. Understood, it clarifies the nature of Divine Providence.

newadvent.org/cathen/12378a.htm
 
Ordinarily I avoid topics like this because I have never studied 30 seconds of logic, philosophy, or advanced math - but mostly because threads like this are usually pure unadulterated sophistry.

But an error in the beginning is a fatal error. You defined a God for yourself: God could actualize any logically and metaphysically possible world (omnipotence), etc. Then proceeded to make an argument against your straw god. I’m sure you tried to be as fair as possible to your understanding of the theology involved but the theologians who developed that it would never be so arrogant as to think they had exhaustively defined God.

Here is a correction I would make to the first part: God could actualize any logically and metaphysically possible world (omnipotence), that is consistent with His own nature. God is love. All things proceed from God and return to Him.
 
But an error in the beginning is a fatal error. You defined a God for yourself: God could actualize any logically and metaphysically possible world (omnipotence), etc. Then proceeded to make an argument against your straw god. I’m sure you tried to be as fair as possible to your understanding of the theology involved but the theologians who developed that it would never be so arrogant as to think they had exhaustively defined God.
It is not decessary to “exhaustively” define God.
Here is a correction I would make to the first part: God could actualize any logically and metaphysically possible world (omnipotence), that is consistent with His own nature. God is love. All things proceed from God and return to Him.
In other words, “your” God is not “free” to do anything and everything, even if it is metaphysically possible. That is a serious limitation on God and his “omnipotence”.

Of course your definition is flatly contradicted by the Old Testament. God is vengeful, jealous, vindictive, angry, etc… God has drowned all the created beings (except the fish of course) in a Flood whether they were personally guilty or innocent. That is not what a “loving” being would do.

Therefore the God (as defined) is accurate, so no error is found there.
 
If you maintain that God can only know that which exists, then you cannot expect Him to make decisions based on knowledge of un (and never) existent beings.
 
It is not decessary to “exhaustively” define God.

In other words, “your” God is not “free” to do anything and everything, even if it is metaphysically possible. That is a serious limitation on God and his “omnipotence”.

Of course your definition is flatly contradicted by the Old Testament. God is vengeful, jealous, vindictive, angry, etc… God has drowned all the created beings (except the fish of course) in a Flood whether they were personally guilty or innocent. That is not what a “loving” being would do.

Therefore the God (as defined) is accurate, so no error is found there.
Actually quasimodo’s God is that of Christianity. And you make bad mistake on OT, God cannot be revengeful hence that goes against his nature. He is angry to sin and destroys only those who deserve it but he never contradicts himself or goes against his nature, that would be a problem for his eternal unchangeable and loving nature. You also have a problem with omnipotence, it doesn’t mean he can contradict himself it means he is all-powerful towards us. At least this is on Christianity and its Catholic form, on other Gods you can go against with this argument but against my Father in heaven you cannot.

So what comes to Christianity Quasimodo is right, your God responds better to Allah, but on him you cannot play this game, since in Islam all good is what God does and bad is what he doesn’t like.

And this still stands:

If there is God there is no unnecessary evil

There is God

Therefore there is no unnecessary evil…

It is the same argument vice versa, just shows that with the what about evil in the world argument, you actually cannot disprove God.

Ateista you need to read some catholic basics books and bible with explanatory book, because your OT view is just straight from atheist agenda with no inside, you gotta dig a bit deeper…
 
If you maintain that God can only know that which exists, then you cannot expect Him to make decisions based on knowledge of un (and never) existent beings.
Where does anyone say this? Quasimodo said God can only do things which are according to his nature. That doesn’t mean this…
 
And this still stands:

If there is God there is no unnecessary evil

There is God

Therefore there is no unnecessary evil…
Perfectly logical, and totally unreasonable.

Please explain how the wholescale destruction of ever human being (some toddlers, some unborn) along with the animals was “necessary”. How the genocides, rapes, murders are “necessary”? How the Earthquakes, hurricanes and other catastrophies are “necessary”? What is the “good” that comes out of them, which even God could not bring forth without these means applied?

Go ahead… I will wait.
 
Perfectly logical, and totally unreasonable.

Please explain how the wholescale destruction of ever human being (some toddlers, some unborn) along with the animals was “necessary”. How the genocides, rapes, murders are “necessary”? How the Earthquakes, hurricanes and other catastrophies are “necessary”? What is the “good” that comes out of them, which even God could not bring forth without these means applied?

Go ahead… I will wait.
Actually I won’t since this is not any argument at all against my initial argument. I don’t need to explain it since by my earlier argument which is logically sound I know they must be reasonable if God indeed exists, and I know he does. What I cannot explain then is not mine to explain to begin with since in human eyes I can only see so far, but God can see and know everything…

It is a bit arrogant for you to think that God must be bad. Anyway I was dealing with logical argument not with emotional issues that a person has…

On the whole destruction of every human being issue you are quite wrong though since this God let’s most people who even ask for help eventually to get into eternal heaven and happiness, which pretty much undoes all the little sufferings they encountered before it.

Anyway you cannot go about with the same argument of evil after i already dealt with it. You have to proof either one of my premises wrong or i won the debate as you know it… [edited]
 
Actually I won’t since this is not any argument at all against my initial argument.
Why am I not surprised? You won’t because you can’t.
I don’t need to explain it since by my earlier argument which is logically sound I know they must be reasonable if God indeed exists, and I know he does.
Obviously you don’t know the difference between logically correct and logically sound arguments. Look it up sometime. Google is your friend.

If you know that that God exists, why don’t you share your proof for it? It would be interesting for many posters around here, because most believers humbly accept that they believe God’s existence, but are not arrogant to say that they know.
What I cannot explain then is not mine to explain to begin with since in human eyes I can only see so far, but God can see and know everything…
God is notoriously silent. It is your place to argue for him. You cannot, and that is it.
It is a bit arrogant for you to think that God must be bad.
As usual, you misunderstand or misrepresent my stance.
On the whole destruction of every human being issue you are quite wrong though since this God let’s most people who even ask for help eventually to get into eternal heaven and happiness, which pretty much undoes all the little sufferings they encountered before it.
Wrong about the destruction of all humans and land animals in the Flood? And for the second part, there is no such thing as “undoing” past injustices, not even with alleged “eternal” bliss.

[Edited]
 
If you know that that God exists, why don’t you share your proof for it? It would be interesting for many posters around here, because most believers humbly accept that they believe God’s existence, but are not arrogant to say that they know.
It probably won’t mean much to you but ultimately the knowledge of God is an experience of him, no different in that sense than the direct experience of any other being. Since this God apparently “hides” himself and only responds to mans’ faith, the experience I’m referring to is withheld from those who’re adamantly predisposed to believing that an omniscient, omnipotent, and loving God could never have created the kind of world we live in.

But consider this fact: Even in this crazy world with all of its evil-the worst of which is committed by humans-we all, almost unanimously, whether we’ve been victimized by evil or not (and we all have to one degree or another), still cling to and cherish our existence. We by far value the existence-the life- we’ve been given, regardless of where it came from, and prefer it to the non-existence we’ve never known. To me this is a tacit kind of agreement, say with a hypothetical creator-god, that life’s worth it, even at its worst. And I’ve known victims who “non-tacitly” agree with this. Maybe they’re just fools or maybe their glasses are half full instead of the half empty ones we get when we only ponder the possibility that this world could’ve/should’ve been better than it is.

In any case, along with evil, love is a reality in this world and I maintain that the real God, with very little interference on His part, allows those two forces to play out their hands here, our own wills being the determining factor in which side ultimately triumphs. Life’s really pretty meaningless otherwise.
 
In any case, along with evil, love is a reality in this world and I maintain that the real God, with very little interference on His part, allows those two forces to play out their hands here, our own wills being the determining factor in which side ultimately triumphs. Life’s really pretty meaningless otherwise.
Excellent statement.
 
It probably won’t mean much to you but ultimately the knowledge of God is an experience of him, no different in that sense than the direct experience of any other being. Since this God apparently “hides” himself and only responds to mans’ faith, the experience I’m referring to is withheld from those who’re adamantly predisposed to believing that an omniscient, omnipotent, and loving God could never have created the kind of world we live in.
That sounds pretty strange. A “hide and seek” game? Also Jesus said that he came to the ones who need him, he came for the sinners, and not the righteous ones.

When Thomas asked for proof, he was given first hand evidence to examine the stigmata on Jesus’ hands. Why is it, that current doubters (atheists) are not given the same kind of proof? Yes, I know the quotation: “Blessed are the ones who have not seen and yet believe”, but that is just a cop-out.
But consider this fact: Even in this crazy world with all of its evil-the worst of which is committed by humans-we all, almost unanimously, whether we’ve been victimized by evil or not (and we all have to one degree or another), still cling to and cherish our existence. We by far value the existence-the life- we’ve been given, regardless of where it came from, and prefer it to the non-existence we’ve never known. To me this is a tacit kind of agreement, say with a hypothetical creator-god, that life’s worth it, even at its worst. And I’ve known victims who “non-tacitly” agree with this. Maybe they’re just fools or maybe their glasses are half full instead of the half empty ones we get when we only ponder the possibility that this world could’ve/should’ve been better than it is.
This is true in many or most cases. But there are exceptions. Those who feel so helpless that they commit suicide. The hopelessly ill, who are in pain, and want nothing else, but release.

Existence is usually preferred to non-existence. But eternal pain and hopeless suffering is definitely not. Yet, according to Christians, this is refused by God, his supposed love and mercy notwithstanding.
In any case, along with evil, love is a reality in this world and I maintain that the real God, with very little interference on His part, allows those two forces to play out their hands here, our own wills being the determining factor in which side ultimately triumphs. Life’s really pretty meaningless otherwise.
Sure there is love. But that love is manifested itself in deeds, not just words. And, please do not quote John 3:16 to me. I know it, and it is just words.
 
Why am I not surprised? You won’t because you can’t.
hmm, i proved your argument wrong and you quickly encountered with the same argument, this debate on my part is over, since you seem to be willfully irrational and ignorant.

Your job is the prove how that argument is wrong, or give a better argument, if i am right your argument is:

if God exists there should not be irrational or unnecessary evil

There is irrational or unnecessary evil

so God does not exist,

My argument to answer that was that human knowledge cannot comprehend what is right from the point of view of God, we are not God so to say, so

if God exists there should not be irrational or unnecessary evil

There is God

so There is no irrational or unnecessary evil

To say that Christian position on this issue therefore is not as good as Atheist you would need to show my argument wrong

To argue for God exist, there is uncaused cause, fine tuning, complexity, moral objectivity, and so forth. For atheist as yourself it is actually funny to accuse God of being evil since in atheist position all good and bad things must be relative, which means problem of evil is only a real problem for atheist (i.e you cannot really say Hitler ever did anything wrong and base it on a real moral foundation, to me he did something wrong and I have a foundation)

But what I am saying is the problem of evil cannot disprove God,

And i know this argument works it is tested by a theist Philosopher called Dr. Craig, here is a link to a good article on problem of evil: reasonablefaith.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5350 (you gotta register)
 
Of course your definition is flatly contradicted by the Old Testament. God is vengeful, jealous, vindictive, angry, etc… God has drowned all the created beings (except the fish of course) in a Flood whether they were personally guilty or innocent. That is not what a “loving” being would do.
Yes, if you take the story out of its context it certainly portrays God in a bad light. What precedes and procedes this portion of Genesis can’t be left out to understand it. It’s really rather simple;

Cain murdered his brother Able, God had mercy on him , set a merk on him that none would avenge Able by killing Cain. Lamech was the second murderer, who invokes God’s mercy and declares he is all the more to be left alone. Without specifics, it is said how depraved man had become. God was sorrowful of the situation, Chose Noe and his family to build an ark for a coming flood, which, given the size of the ark available tools and manpower, took years, decades. Given the proximity to the creation account, and the narrative, man was not yet dispersed throughout the earth, so it’s implied in the facts of the story that all had knowledge of what Noe was doing and could have joined him, the blood of the innocents was upon the parents.
After the flood, the first thing God did was make a covenant that he would never flood the earth again and instituted the death penalty.
God had to intervene that mankind would not self destruct, saving the specie without removing free will.
 
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