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lemondiesel
Guest
Haha, I like this one
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Zatzat
Guest
Are you certain that breaking one of Gods commandmetns, ’ thou shalt not steal’ is a venial sin?
You’re the first Catholic I’ve come across whose suggested that thievery is a mere venial sin.
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Desertsailor
Guest
So many stupid questions. So little time.
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Zatzat
Guest
It’s a stupid question, asking why God didn’t banish Satan out of reach of his children and why God didn’t stick the tree of knowlege out of reach of Eve.
??? I mean, you’ve honestly never wondered about these things? If not, maybe you think about them now.
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lemondiesel
Guest
“I believe everything the Church teaches without question.”
which is why he probably has never thought of such things
no offense
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
Not that I’m the person in question but I also believe everything the Church teaches without question.
the REASON that I am able to do so is that I have already taken the time and trouble to explore every facet of the Church’s teachings for many years. Having found in every single area that I have explored that the Church is correct, I thus have no need to FURTHER question.
**I ‘questioned’ at first insofar as any one exploring any subject questions. No one is born ‘knowing all’. **
As a cradle Catholic I may have been of an ‘accepting’ mind BUT then how do you explain both other cradle Catholics who dissented, OR those who were raised Protestant and yet on exploring Catholicism converted? Obviously simply being born Catholic, or even of a ‘docile’ nature, does not automatically mean one will ‘swallow everything’.
Honestly.
I’m sure that scientists accept a ‘proven theory’ without question. Nobody is going around questioning Keplers laws of motion or Newton on gravity. And nobody thinks that the scientists are ‘unquestioning robots’, right? Because they assume that scientists have ALREADY done the research and thus ‘know the right answer’.
Well, I did the research and the Church has the right answers. no need to reinvent the wheel!
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fhansen
Guest
The Tree stands for human free will-the ability to choose between right and wrong. The serpent’s presence means that temptation is inevitable. The necessary ingredients for the fall were no more than 1) the creation of sentient beings with reason and 2) free will. These are both “goods” by which Satan and other angels fell. The ingredient lacking, IMO, is wisdom, which only God possesses perfectly but which we have the opportunity to gain over time-the wisdom to know our need for God-a wisdom Adam & Eve obviously lacked. God knew from the beginning that the fall would occur-that evil would enter the world-but, presumably, deemed it worth it to create this universe, including beings such as us, anyway, having a plan to ultimately bring a greater good out of it. And most agree that existence, even in this world, is still worth having.
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lemondiesel
Guest
Okay, so what does the Church say about God creating Satan, already knowing Satan would be caste out of Heaven, and given Hell to rule? What does the Church say about God creating good and evil?
So God knew from the beginning that He would be damning some souls and saving others?
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
God does save. . . and all of us may choose to be saved. But He does not damn any souls. We damn ourselves.
Satan was created as were all of us with the choice to do good or evil. God did not create “Lucifer”, an angel, with the thought, “OK now I am creating this angel but he is gonna go postal on me and wind up the Lord of the Darkness”. You completely misunderstand the concepts of free will and of creation and especially of God by attempting to hold Him to a limited and finite ‘time’ concept. And especially in 'judging Him as ‘wrong’ without knowing all the facts.
**Do YOU know the ultimate story of the universe? Do you know everything that will happen? How can you be sure that there isn’t an explanation out there that makes perfect sense, perfect justice and perfect mercy, but you just don’t know it yet? And if you close your mind, by the time you do know it, you’ll refuse to accept it. . . let’s hope not though. **
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gavanhe
Guest
Perhaps you’ve heard this before, but God did NOT create evil. Simply put evil is the absence of good like darkness is the absence of light, cold is the absence of heat etc.
God created beings with free will and if those beings choose to do evil such as rebelling against Him than they are free to do so.
To have created beings in any other way - ie. without the ability to choose good over evil - would totally negate His purpose as He may as well have created mechanical robots.
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lemondiesel
Guest
If God didn’t know Satan would wind up being the Lord of the Darkness, then God’s omniscience comes into question. You are implying that some form of creation did something without God knowing, so does that mean we can do things without God knowing?
Yes but like I just said, He already knows if you are going to turn against Him, because that is an attribute monotheistic religions give to God, omniscience.
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ddarko
Guest
I think you misunderstood my point. The idea is that Premise 1 is false. The reasons is that Hell is not just a punishment. It is also a RESULT. Results do not need to be bounded even if its caused by a finite event. If you do think that ‘‘Finite actions cause finite results’’ the proof by counter example would be murder. If you murder someone, the result extends in to the future and thus to eternity. So my argument is that every sin has RESULT (though the eternal aspect might not be purely a physical result like in murder).
So to take the ‘‘stealing a candy bar’’ example, though the RESULT of the sin might be physically finite (even that is arguable), the supernatural effect might be eternal. Thus hell is JUST. The only way for one to say that Hell is unjust would be to prove that results are finite for finite actions which to me seems intuitively false (like the example of murder).
God Bless
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Betterave
Guest
That sounds about right as far as what a JW/SDA is likely to say, though it is nothing but a trite formula that does nothing to explain what “God’s justice” (or just “justice”) is.
“God’s justice” = “the thing which requires that people be tortured prior to annihilation”? Really??
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Betterave
Guest
Justice, genius!
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Betterave
Guest
I refer you to post #42.
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Betterave
Guest
They’re not stupid questions, just childish ones of the kind that could be multiplied endlessly. “Why? Why? Why?..” We should probably just respond right off the get-go with a question of our own: Why are you asking this question? (Chances are good that it’s not a result of genuine intellectual curiosity.)
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Desertsailor
Guest
I regret using the word ‘stupid’ and for that I apologize.
You first have to understand God. God doesn’t NEED the angels or us to be happy. He was completely contented for eternity before He set his plan into action. God made the angels with free will to choose Him or reject Him which ever they wanted to do. He did this because he loved them. I’m sure you understand the concept of “If you love a bird you’ll let him go.” Hell is the absence of God which is what the fallen angels wanted and still want.
When God made Adam and Eve He also gave them free will to obey or disobey, but knowing they didn’t have complete knowledge or wisdom He gave them a second chance which He didn’t give the angels. Of course God could have kept Satan out of the garden or slapped Eve’s hand when she reached for the fruit, but Adam and Eve had to be tested.
Of course I’ve wondered about these things. I asked these same questions when I started catechism at 6 years of age.
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Desertsailor
Guest
Let’s think about it in human terms.
If a person wants to be loved by someone what should he do? Should he chain that person to a chair and keep her locked up or should he give her a choice and then accept the love that is freely given. It’s really a simple concept.
About suffering in hell: We suffer when God takes away his attributes and gifts. In hell we don’t have all the gifts God gives us in this world. Hell is hot because God takes away his protection from heat. People in hell are stupid because God takes away intelligence. People in hell are mean and cruel because God takes away kindness and sympathy. Some can’t move because God took away the ability to move. Everything that makes us happy and comfortable in this life is a gift from God. If He takes away his gifts we will suffer. Imagine Lucifer; he was the most beautiful of God’s angels and the most intelligent. He became proud and rejected God’s plan; therefore, God took away his gift of beauty and made him ugly. Now his intelligence is used only for evil which is really stupid.
If a person wants to be loved by someone what should he do? Should he chain that person to a chair and keep her locked up or should he give her a choice and then accept the love that is freely given. It’s really a simple concept.
About suffering in hell: We suffer when God takes away his attributes and gifts. In hell we don’t have all the gifts God gives us in this world. Hell is hot because God takes away his protection from heat. People in hell are stupid because God takes away intelligence. People in hell are mean and cruel because God takes away kindness and sympathy. Some can’t move because God took away the ability to move. Everything that makes us happy and comfortable in this life is a gift from God. If He takes away his gifts we will suffer. Imagine Lucifer; he was the most beautiful of God’s angels and the most intelligent. He became proud and rejected God’s plan; therefore, God took away his gift of beauty and made him ugly. Now his intelligence is used only for evil which is really stupid.
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lemondiesel
Guest
Yes, but you you **know **you are going to eat spaghetti, you just have not done it yet. You knew you were going to eat it once you ate it.Simple point: If I know (and even if I had known for all eternity) that I will eat spaghetti tomorrow if my wife makes spaghetti for dinner, *and *I know that she will, this does not imply that I have already eaten spaghetti tomorrow and that I am actually the one who will make it.
Once the spaghetti is made, you know the outcome of it. You know it will end up in your belly
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Desertsailor
Guest
Knowing things does not cause things. I know water flows over Niagra Falls even though I’ve never seen it. Am I causing Niagra Falls?
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