The Problem of Hell

[Zatzat]

Knowing things does not cause things. I know water flows over Niagra Falls even though I’ve never seen it. Am I causing Niagra Falls?

You don’t know when the water will stop flowing…your God does.

 

[JohnDamian]

You don’t know when the water will stop flowing…your God does.

I don’t see how that is particularily relevant… Given enough environmental data we could work out scientifically when either a) the cliffs would erode sufficiently enough to no longer constitute a waterfall, or b) when rain would no longer be in the catchement of that river or through some other means the water would stop arriving (dam?). So we could know.

 

[Zatzat]

Let’s think about it in human terms.
If a person wants to be loved by someone what should he do? Should he chain that person to a chair and keep her locked up or should he give her a choice and then accept the love that is freely given. It’s really a simple concept.

About suffering in hell: We suffer when God takes away his attributes and gifts. In hell we don’t have all the gifts God gives us in this world. Hell is hot because God takes away his protection from heat. People in hell are stupid because God takes away intelligence. People in hell are mean and cruel because God takes away kindness and sympathy. Some can’t move because God took away the ability to move. Everything that makes us happy and comfortable in this life is a gift from God. If He takes away his gifts we will suffer. Imagine Lucifer; he was the most beautiful of God’s angels and the most intelligent. He became proud and rejected God’s plan; therefore, God took away his gift of beauty and made him ugly. Now his intelligence is used only for evil which is really stupid.

If someone won’t love you, you let them walk away and if you loved them, you wish them well.

You don’t take away the things that make them happy, you don’t throw them into a fire and you don’t assure they experience only agony for the rest of their life.

God does do all that, except he does it for eternity.

 

[Zatzat]

I don’t see how that is particularily relevant… Given enough environmental data we could work out scientifically when either a) the cliffs would erode sufficiently enough to no longer constitute a waterfall, or b) when rain would no longer be in the catchement of that river or through some other means the water would stop arriving (dam?). So we could know.

God has known, for more than a 1000 trilllion years the exact micros second that the water will stop.

You can use human knowledge of science to estimate and deduce when the water will stop.

God knows.

You seek to know.

God knows how your day will unfold tomorrow. All you can do is speculate and surmise.

 

[Desertsailor]

If someone won’t love you, you let them walk away and if you loved them, you wish them well.

You don’t take away the things that make them happy, you don’t throw them into a fire and you don’t assure they experience only agony for the rest of their life.

God does do all that, except he does it for eternity.

God doesn’t do that either. They do it to themselves. I don’t think you’re getting the message.

 

[Cristiano]

If someone won’t love you, you let them walk away and if you loved them, you wish them well.

You don’t take away the things that make them happy, you don’t throw them into a fire and you don’t assure they experience only agony for the rest of their life.

God does do all that, except he does it for eternity.

If my child were a junkie should I still provide him with money or dope just because it makes him happy? Should I do that even if he leaves my home forever?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

And eternity is not an endless stretch of years of TIME.

It is an endless ‘now’.

Plus the person freely chooses.

So you tell us.

Suppose that Mr. X rejects and hates God. He does so for ‘eternity’.

What SHOULD God do for Mr. X?

Please explain how God should be ‘fair’ in His treatment of Mr. X yet permit Mr. X the free will to hate and reject him (God) for eternity.

Remember, you cannot permit Mr. X to ‘change’. He rejects and hates God. He does not want to be with God. Where then does he go? What does he do?

Don’t tell me what God ‘should have done’. God DID create beings and they have free will. Tell me how they can continue to have free will in rejecting God.

 

[aperture]

And eternity is not an endless stretch of years of TIME.

It is an endless ‘now’.

Plus the person freely chooses.

So you tell us.

Suppose that Mr. X rejects and hates God. He does so for ‘eternity’.

What SHOULD God do for Mr. X?

Please explain how God should be ‘fair’ in His treatment of Mr. X yet permit Mr. X the free will to hate and reject him (God) for eternity.

Remember, you cannot permit Mr. X to ‘change’. He rejects and hates God. He does not want to be with God. Where then does he go? What does he do?

Don’t tell me what God ‘should have done’. God DID create beings and they have free will. Tell me how they can continue to have free will in rejecting God.

Aren’t there people in this life who reject God and are happy, or are at least not experiencing the total suffering of hell?

 

[Zatzat]

God doesn’t do that either. They do it to themselves. I don’t think you’re getting the message.

Did the post not say that God deliberately takes away everything good in a persons life?

Which leads me to say, what does God take away from an abused, starving, neglected and unloved child who because of their sin is condemned to hell upon their death?

 

[Zatzat]

And eternity is not an endless stretch of years of TIME.

It is an endless ‘now’.

Plus the person freely chooses.

So you tell us.

Suppose that Mr. X rejects and hates God. He does so for ‘eternity’.

What SHOULD God do for Mr. X?

Please explain how God should be ‘fair’ in His treatment of Mr. X yet permit Mr. X the free will to hate and reject him (God) for eternity.

Remember, you cannot permit Mr. X to ‘change’. He rejects and hates God. He does not want to be with God. Where then does he go? What does he do?

Don’t tell me what God ‘should have done’. God DID create beings and they have free will. Tell me how they can continue to have free will in rejecting God.

Serious?

A). Have God meet the guy for coffee a few times, I’m sure the guy will grow quite fond of God.

B). Have God use his omniscience to not create the man, as God will have already known the guy is going to reject him and end up in hell for all eternity.

C). Leave man alone, allow him to exist in comfort for eternity…but of course, without God.

After all, if you love someone, but they don’t love you back, would you want them to be uncomfortable and saOf course not, you’d want the best for them and for them to be happy!

 

[Cristiano]

Did the post not say that God deliberately takes away everything good in a persons life?

Which leads me to say, what does God take away from an abused, starving, neglected and unloved child who because of their sin is condemned to hell upon their death?

It looks like you still have the idea that human beings do not really have free will. This is where the breakdown between your logic and the catholic theology happens.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Aren’t there people in this life who reject God and are happy, or are at least not experiencing the total suffering of hell?

Sure. Aren’t there people in this life who accept God and are unhappy, or not experiencing the total bliss of heaven?

Point is not whether we are temporarily experiencing the limited finite conditions that we call ‘happiness’ but whether we know what true happiness (or suffering) is. Plenty of people are experiecing subjective ‘suffering’ that isn’t suffering at all, or deliberately deny themselves happiness, or dupe themselves into thinking that material goods equal happiness, etc… Doesn’'t mean that they couldn’t or shouldn’t be happy or that they never will be happy if they are currently miserable.

 

[Zatzat]

Aren’t there people in this life who reject God and are happy, or are at least not experiencing the total suffering of hell?

Good point…if now lasted forever and that was hell…I’d be Ok with that. Of course there are a lot of people in the world who don’t live priviliged lives and their hell may very well be down right miserable.

 

[Desertsailor]

Did the post not say that God deliberately takes away everything good in a persons life?

Which leads me to say, what does God take away from an abused, starving, neglected and unloved child who because of their sin is condemned to hell upon their death?

I said God withdraws from them thus taking all of his gifts and attributes with Him.

Even suffering in this life is a gift from God. How do you know the child goes to hell?

I’d like to know why you are angry with God.

 

[Zatzat]

Sure. Aren’t there people in this life who accept God and are unhappy, or not experiencing the total bliss of heaven?

Point is not whether we are temporarily experiencing the limited finite conditions that we call ‘happiness’ but whether we know what true happiness (or suffering) is. Plenty of people are experiecing subjective ‘suffering’ that isn’t suffering at all, or deliberately deny themselves happiness, or dupe themselves into thinking that material goods equal happiness, etc… Doesn’'t mean that they couldn’t or shouldn’t be happy or that they never will be happy if they are currently miserable.

Yet if they never meet this God and never see this heaven, they’ll have no idea what they’re missing. So yes, they will be very happy.

Unless of course God shows everyone heaven as a kind told you so tease…but that would be cruel and juvenile and God can’t be either of those things

 

[Zatzat]

I said God withdraws from them thus taking all of his gifts and attributes with Him.

Even suffering in this life is a gift from God. How do you know the child goes to hell?

I’d like to know why you are angry with God.

The child is hypothertical child doomed to hell for eternity. If suffering is a gift, why do so many christians insist there is great suffering in hell? Why would God give gifts to eternally damned souls?

I’m not at all angry with your God. I do however see some very interesting problems in relation to the concept of hell.

 

[Desertsailor]

Bear in mind the people in hell don’t suffer as much as they deserve and this makes them angry.

 

[Desertsailor]

The child is hypothertical child doomed to hell for eternity. If suffering is a gift, why do so many christians insist there is great suffering in hell? Why would God give gifts to eternally damned souls?

I’m not at all angry with your God. I do however see some very interesting problems in relation to the concept of hell.

These problems only exist in your mind because you are thinking like a child.

 

[Scoobyshme]

We are indeed finite beings. But when we sin, we sin against an Infinite Being, thereby creating an infinite sin. That is the problem.

Only in Infinite Being can atone for an infinite sin, hence, Jesus Christ. However, there has to be some tie back to the finite, the human. That’s why Jesus is 100% Divine and 100% human.

 

[lemondiesel]

And eternity is not an endless stretch of years of TIME.

It is an endless ‘now’. .

We know, I have already posted this earlier in this thread. Thanks for the reminder

Suppose that Mr. X rejects and hates God. He does so for ‘eternity’.

What SHOULD God do for Mr. X?

Please explain how God should be ‘fair’ in His treatment of Mr. X yet permit Mr. X the free will to hate and reject him (God) for eternity.

Remember, you cannot permit Mr. X to ‘change’. He rejects and hates God. He does not want to be with God. Where then does he go? What does he do?

Don’t tell me what God ‘should have done’. God DID create beings and they have free will. Tell me how they can continue to have free will in rejecting God.

If we truly have free will, ALL of the stories in the Bible where God “speaks” to prophets should be taken as false. Why? Because God is tampering with free will. It is the same reason why God can’t reveal himself to any of us, because then he is effecting OUR choice to reject him or accept him.

It looks like you still have the idea that human beings do not really have free will. This is where the breakdown between your logic and the catholic theology happens.

The omniscience of your God already implies that we do not have free will. Free will is an illusion created by your God. If God was just really smart and didn’t know whether or not his creations would accept or reject him, then I have no problem. Your God, however, knows all. He doesn’t create anything without a purpose.

I said God withdraws from them thus taking all of his gifts and attributes with Him.

Even suffering in this life is a gift from God. How do you know the child goes to hell?

I’d like to know why you are angry with God.

First you say it is nuts that God created sin, yet suffering is a gift from God? Suffering is the result from sin, so if suffering is a gift from God, sins are also a gift from God.

And no one is angry with God, but your personal/traditional Abrahamic God has flaws in his definition.