The Problem of Hell

[mark_a]

Hey, I am writing a paper on the the problem of hell and wold like to hear your opinions/ answers on this “problem”, (anihilationism): We are finite beings and therefore can only sin a finite amount. So our temporal sins can only warrant a temporal punishment. Therefore, If God is all just, then hell cannot be eternal. This annihilationist view is held by Seventh day Adventists and Jehovah Witnesses. It must be admitted that this is, at least at first glance, a powerful argument. God could damn people for aeons and aeons and then annihilate them instead of damning them for eternity.

• Thanks in advance!

I once heard Fr Groeschel say that hell is the kindest place to send those who will not accept God’s love.

Pretty just, don’t ya think?

 

[mdecler2]

References made in the bible to a trash collection area outside the walls of Jerusalem have been skewed to fit a concept of enternal punishment.

Please see the above post. Also, realize that Jesus Christ uses very practical imagery. To my understanding, that trash collection area was once used by pagans to sacrifice their children to the gods, which is probably one of the reasons it was not used for anything but a trash heap (besides the strange fiery conditions).

The Greek scriptures occasionally used the term hades, but the “story” of Hell didn’t start to become so defined until the Church needed imagery to scare people who generally could not read. Keeping attendance up at church was a major factor in the development of the iconic picture of what Hell is typically known as.

I suppose then that you would deny all the saints that saw visions of hell or experienced it. There are many. Notably, St. John Bosco, Mother Marianna, St. Faustina Kowalska, and the blessed Fatima children.

Only recently, relatively speaking, has the church developed a more palatable explanation of what Hell is to keep God from seeming so unloving. Operation “Tone Down Hell” was not taken up by the church until our age.

The Church has no efforts to develop other explanations of hell that I am aware of. I think St. Alphonsus Ligouri has some great sermons on hell. If anyone is trying to come up with other explanations, I doubt they really care much about Tradition.

What makes this so confusing is that the term will stay the same, yet the meaning changes drastically over time. In this way only the Church stays consistent.

Of course the Church would be inconsistent if She redefines what her dogmas are. I suggest reading “The Spirit of Catholicism” by Karl Adam.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

Please, can someone answer this: Is it dogma of the Catholic church that there is fire in hell?

I’m pretty sure the answer is no.

 

[mdecler2]

So people are having anal sex instead of using condoms OUT OF RESPECT FOR CHURCH TEACHING? (You realize, I hope, how dumb that sounds?)

This whole discussion is silly. Condoms merely give people incentive to be sexually active. Unfortunately, condoms are not 100% effective. The more one is sexually active, the more likely there will be an occasion of condom failure. It seems like the first principle is that human beings cannot be celibate, and that is false. Fr. Corapi and Blessed Mother Theresa are excellent examples of celibacy.

Furthermore, we know that God will punish impurity. Which is greater: to suffer crosses by pursuing virtue and the sacraments in this life with the very hopeful possibility of being saved, or to allow mortal sin to perpetuate (which does not alleviate but exacerbate the suffering anyway) causing souls to be lost? I am sure that you will have some other way to frame this situation. There was one Pilate who said, Quid est veritas? while staring at Veritas in the flesh.

 

[roveau]

I think your question ignores the difference between time as we know it (linear) vs God’s time which is time outside of time. When we die we will exist in God’s time and there will be no linear progression of punishment in hell leading to anihilation. There will only be ‘now’.

I don’t think we can comprehend what God’s time will be like except perhaps that in terms of our time a minute can be a thousand years to God and a thousand years can be like a minute.

A continual ‘now’ doesn’t make any sense because there will still be sequences of events… for ever. Songs will be sung from start to finish, praise will be extolled from start to finish and then something else will happen and so on. There has been a past in Heaven (e.g., the war of the angels) and there will be a future crammed with events.

Our time is also based on sequences of events but within factors such as relate to the earth’s rotation, movement around the sun etc. Obviously Heaven doesn’t need to mark time according to the earth’s rotation etc., because there will be no night or day, no seasons etc., that we know of.

So Hell will also last forever… with events… depending on whether you believe it is a place of eternal punishing (torture forever) or eternal punishment (you are extinguished forever).

There are several churches (for example, SDA?) who believe the latter, ie, that if you are condemned, you get consigned to the Gehenna fire and burned up once and for all (eternal punishment). Gehenna is based on the Valley of Hinnom at Jerusalem of old where rubbish was burned, including the bodies of criminals). They make the distinction though that Satan and his fallen angels will be tormnetned in the fires for ever…as the scriptures clearly state. Is this what the original poster of this topic referred to as ‘anihilationism’?

 

[fhansen]

Am I understanding you correctly that you think Purgatory might come before the particular judgment?

No, the particular judgment determines which way we go if we’ve lived a life pleasing to God, directly into His presence or to purgatory first. My point was that our wills must be in need of polishing if purgatory is in order.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

johnny
*
And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’*

Well, I guess you are determined not to see that Jesus describes hell, using the right metaphor, long before the Church got into the act.

 

[johnnyprc]

Charlemagne II:

I’m not sure how someone can take an illustration like this and create all the specifics Hell is now commonly known for, and say - “Jesus told us about it”. What did Jesus say??? First, it was an illustration. Second, he didn’t reference that people would be living in some sort of tormented state. Last I checked, I didn’t think a soul or spirit could burn from fire AS THEY ARE NOT PHYSICAL. So now you have to believe that somehow God is going to make it specifically in Hell a spirit creature can feel fire? Oh, and is it at the center of the earth too?? Maybe we should start a fund and try to dig our way to Hell…what a discovery that would be.

You have to see how ridiculous this all is. The amount of work to go into creating a place like this where it would need to be at a specific location to exist, and then somehow a balance act of the physical and spirit world would need to be specially designed to keep people in this tortured state…if God could and would create such a place, who would want to serve him simply based on love? Way too many people would just be worried about going to hell. Thats not why God wants us to love him. At the end of the day, Hell is counterproductive to the “Universal Issue” being played out.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

Charlemagne II:

I’m not sure how someone can take an illustration like this and create all the specifics Hell is now commonly known for, and say - “Jesus told us about it”. What did Jesus say??? First, it was an illustration. Second, he didn’t reference that people would be living in some sort of tormented state. Last I checked, I didn’t think a soul or spirit could burn from fire AS THEY ARE NOT PHYSICAL. So now you have to believe that somehow God is going to make it specifically in Hell a spirit creature can feel fire? Oh, and is it at the center of the earth too?? Maybe we should start a fund and try to dig our way to Hell…what a discovery that would be.

You have to see how ridiculous this all is. The amount of work to go into creating a place like this where it would need to be at a specific location to exist, and then somehow a balance act of the physical and spirit world would need to be specially designed to keep people in this tortured state…if God could and would create such a place, who would want to serve him simply based on love? Way too many people would just be worried about going to hell. Thats not why God wants us to love him. At the end of the day, Hell is counterproductive to the “Universal Issue” being played out.

 

[Moontown_Rabbit]

Charlemagne II:

I’m not sure how someone can take an illustration like this and create all the specifics Hell is now commonly known for, and say - “Jesus told us about it”. What did Jesus say??? First, it was an illustration. Second, he didn’t reference that people would be living in some sort of tormented state. Last I checked, I didn’t think a soul or spirit could burn from fire AS THEY ARE NOT PHYSICAL. So now you have to believe that somehow God is going to make it specifically in Hell a spirit creature can feel fire? Oh, and is it at the center of the earth too?? Maybe we should start a fund and try to dig our way to Hell…what a discovery that would be.

You have to see how ridiculous this all is. The amount of work to go into creating a place like this where it would need to be at a specific location to exist, and then somehow a balance act of the physical and spirit world would need to be specially designed to keep people in this tortured state…if God could and would create such a place, who would want to serve him simply based on love? Way too many people would just be worried about going to hell. Thats not why God wants us to love him. At the end of the day, Hell is counterproductive to the “Universal Issue” being played out.

Sorry about the blank reply above. In 1987 I was severly attacked by what I was thought was a demon. I spent about 3 months in the hospital recovering. All my devout Catholic friends said it was nothing more than a nervous breakdown. When I finally described the experience to a priest who was a retired exorcist he said it was almost certainly a demonic attack. There are a few details concerning this experience that are pertinent to the above post:

1. The worst part of it was experiencing the intensity of the demon’s hatred for Christ. It was like being inside a blast furnace. Fire is a very accurate metaphor for spiritual suffering. This is not be surprising as that is the one Christ used.
2. If demons reign in hell, their combined rage alone will be more than enough to make it seem like an inferno.
3. The main desire of the demon was that I should renounce Christ and switch my allegiance to Lucifer. Had he somehow forced me into doing this I suppose I wouldn’t be writing this. The point is, there are definitely ways into this hell and it really is something we should be on guard against. I think vigilance, not worry, is the correct term.
4. Is anihilationism correct? I can only speculate, but I don’t think so. God was absent from that demon, and it follows that He is absent from their abode. If hell is a place from which God agrees to be banished, why would He go there to destroy a soul? Wouldn’t He ignore the place altogether?

 

[tonyrey]

1.Hell is not a problem but a logical consequence of the reality of evil and free will.

1. Hell is not a place but a state of self-imposed isolation from God.
2. Those who reject God enjoy their absolute freedom but are tormented by their insatiable lust for power.

 

[dcastlen50]

Charlemagne:

Where do you see the term Hell used there? Again, there are plenty of references made to Gehenna that tie back into the Hebrew scriptures (if you didn’t know, Jesus did that often), which ALWAYS was burning to dispose of the City’s garbage. The term Hell is nothing more than a church ploy to market a fiticious place for those who do not attend church, or who ignore the Pope.

If such a place really existed, don’t you think God would have told Israel about it in great detail? Heaven is one thing, but a place where people are tormented forever? I’d be more worried about not going to Hell than getting to go to Heaven.

Holy catfish! I do not have my catechism here to reference the paragraphs, but it clearly says there is a hell and it is eternal. Now if you are not a Catholic, I will (am) required another reliable source; but it appears by your comments that you (at least) believe in the infallibility of the bible, correct?

 

[dcastlen50]

Charlemagne II:

You have to see how ridiculous this all is. The amount of work to go into creating a place like this where it would need to be at a specific location to exist, and then somehow a balance act of the physical and spirit world would need to be specially designed to keep people in this tortured state…if God could and would create such a place, who would want to serve him simply based on love? Way too many people would just be worried about going to hell. Thats not why God wants us to love him. At the end of the day, Hell is counterproductive to the “Universal Issue” being played out.

But I loved my daddy and at the same time was concerned if I did wrong and would be punished - and when it happened it seemed like eternity.

 

[dcastlen50]

Sorry about the blank reply above. In 1987 I was severly attacked by what I was thought was a demon. I spent about 3 months in the hospital recovering. All my devout Catholic friends said it was nothing more than a nervous breakdown. When I finally described the experience to a priest who was a retired exorcist he said it was almost certainly a demonic attack. There are a few details concerning this experience that are pertinent to the above post:

1. The worst part of it was experiencing the intensity of the demon’s hatred for Christ. It was like being inside a blast furnace. Fire is a very accurate metaphor for spiritual suffering. This is not be surprising as that is the one Christ used.
2. If demons reign in hell, their combined rage alone will be more than enough to make it seem like an inferno.
3. The main desire of the demon was that I should renounce Christ and switch my allegiance to Lucifer. Had he somehow forced me into doing this I suppose I wouldn’t be writing this. The point is, there are definitely ways into this hell and it really is something we should be on guard against. I think vigilance, not worry, is the correct term.
4. Is anihilationism correct? I can only speculate, but I don’t think so. God was absent from that demon, and it follows that He is absent from their abode. If hell is a place from which God agrees to be banished, why would He go there to destroy a soul? Wouldn’t He ignore the place altogether?

:frighten::bighanky: My goodness, thanks for the testimonial:thumbsup:

 

[momor]

Sorry about the blank reply above. In 1987 I was severly attacked by what I was thought was a demon. I spent about 3 months in the hospital recovering. All my devout Catholic friends said it was nothing more than a nervous breakdown. When I finally described the experience to a priest who was a retired exorcist he said it was almost certainly a demonic attack. There are a few details concerning this experience that are pertinent to the above post:

1. The worst part of it was experiencing the intensity of the demon’s hatred for Christ. It was like being inside a blast furnace. Fire is a very accurate metaphor for spiritual suffering. This is not be surprising as that is the one Christ used.
2. If demons reign in hell, their combined rage alone will be more than enough to make it seem like an inferno.
3. The main desire of the demon was that I should renounce Christ and switch my allegiance to Lucifer. Had he somehow forced me into doing this I suppose I wouldn’t be writing this. The point is, there are definitely ways into this hell and it really is something we should be on guard against. I think vigilance, not worry, is the correct term.
4. Is anihilationism correct? I can only speculate, but I don’t think so. God was absent from that demon, and it follows that He is absent from their abode. If hell is a place from which God agrees to be banished, why would He go there to destroy a soul? Wouldn’t He ignore the place altogether?

Your post raises some interesting thoughts.

Do you think the rage and hatred you felt from the demon is an active force in itself or is it more like an absence of love or a vacuum/void - something so cold it is felt like fire? Kind of like the cold sucking void of space vs the radiating heat of the sun. It’s hard for me to imagine that God created hatred but I can imagine an absence of His love causing untold desolation.

The experience of God’s love is often decribed as a burning as well.

 

[Cristiano]

Charlemagne II:

I’m not sure how someone can take an illustration like this and create all the specifics Hell is now commonly known for, and say - “Jesus told us about it”. What did Jesus say??? First, it was an illustration. Second, he didn’t reference that people would be living in some sort of tormented state. Last I checked, I didn’t think a soul or spirit could burn from fire AS THEY ARE NOT PHYSICAL. So now you have to believe that somehow God is going to make it specifically in Hell a spirit creature can feel fire? Oh, and is it at the center of the earth too?? Maybe we should start a fund and try to dig our way to Hell…what a discovery that would be.

You have to see how ridiculous this all is. The amount of work to go into creating a place like this where it would need to be at a specific location to exist, and then somehow a balance act of the physical and spirit world would need to be specially designed to keep people in this tortured state…if God could and would create such a place, who would want to serve him simply based on love? Way too many people would just be worried about going to hell. Thats not why God wants us to love him. At the end of the day, Hell is counterproductive to the “Universal Issue” being played out.

I think that you are missing a critical point. Humans have a soul and body. They will always have a soul and body. The resurrection of the body will happen for everybody independently that your are heaven bound or hell bound. Hell will be spiritual and physical suffering. One of the problems that I see with poor catechesis in the Church is that originally the physical suffering was the main topic a,d not it is the spiritual suffering. It is not either or, it is both.

 

[dcastlen50]

1.Hell is not a problem but a logical consequence of the reality of evil and free will.

1. Hell is not a place but a state of self-imposed isolation from God.
2. Those who reject God enjoy their absolute freedom but are tormented by their insatiable lust for power.

This is good. Is it supported by Catholic dogma?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

And the king will say to them in reply, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you did for one of these least brothers of mine, you did for me.'Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’

If this is not a description of hell, what is it? If it was said by Christ, can it be false? Only if you believe the great Liar, who wants us to believe in neither heaven nor hell … only in this world … and then nothingness.

 

[johnnyprc]

Charlemagne:

If it was taught in the bible that our short physical life and existence was all there was, and there was no hell or heaven, I would consider God to be more loving than if there was both a heaven and Hell.

 

[fhansen]

Charlemagne:

If it was taught in the bible that our short physical life and existence was all there was, and there was no hell or heaven, I would consider God to be more loving than if there was both a heaven and Hell.

What if those who exist in hell, 1) continue to value and cling to their existence, and 2) want that existence to exclude God? IOW, perhaps, creating their own hell.