The Problem of Original Sin and Concupiscence

[Latin]

There is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

I perfectly agree with you Vico, no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

God’s design/ plan of the event of the “fall” and predestination of it from all eternity is a predestination of a great benefit of the human race.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

By the events of the “fall” God created the dramas of evil and sin, for the reason to convert our sins into greater good.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:
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311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

Vico:

There is absolutely no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

I perfectly agree with you Vico, no predestination to sin as a means to eternal damnation.

God’s design/ plan of the event of the “fall” and predestination of it from all eternity is a predestination of a great benefit of the human race.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

By the events of the “fall” God created the dramas of evil and sin, for the reason to convert our sins into greater good.
.
308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
.
St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:
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311 For almighty God, . . . because he is supremely good, would never allow any evil whatsoever to exist in his works if he were not so all-powerful and good as to cause good to emerge from evil itself.177
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.
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God bless

The Catholic Church declares two beliefs at the same time: it affirms the freedom of the will and that sin is permitted, not predestined, by God.

St. Thomas Aquinas put it this way in S.T. I, Q19 A9 “God therefore neither wills evil to be done, nor wills it not to be done, but wills to permit evil to be done; and this is a good.”

 

[Latin]

…

As we see below, what God permits He also preordained/ predestined.

St. Thomas also teaches Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing.

The CCC also teaches, God is at work in us, both to will and to work.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains God ORDERS all events within the universe. – The event of the fall cannot be excluded.

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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

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St. Thomas teaches that God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3:

St. Thomas also teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because Gad alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
.
He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.
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Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

Best to provide more of the sentence from Catholic Encyclopedia (Divine Providence)

“He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities. In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin,”

 

[LateCatholic]

[The Problem of Original Sin and Concupiscence]

The entire post raises some well-thought out questions and problems.
My opinion is that the underlying theology of Original Sin is just wrong.
There are too many problems with it, as you mention, that cannot be resolved.
And, as complex as your questions are, you are really only scratching the surface.

When the story of Creation and Adam and Eve was all we had, Original Sin could be rationalized (at least somewhat). Scientific discovery has introduced so many indisputable contradictory concepts that I think we have no choice but to start over.

Here’s my humble first pass: “original sin” comes not from an ACT but from our entire evolutionary history. We may have evolved from ‘animals’ but we are no longer animals. We are humans, with ethics and morality. We are now past evolutionary pressures, and we must care for each other as a human race, not as simply “surviving” and passing on our genes. Being ‘saved’ is not so much being forgiven for an act by an ancestor, it is moving beyond the primitive pressures of evolution and becoming more than animals. That is our salvation (through Christ, if you are a Christian).

 

[Latin]

In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God

I know the above sentence very well, I try not to post sentences which contradicts the other teachings of Catholic Soteriology.

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FOR EXAMPLES
310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin. – This is God’s active will, so He had to CREATE the dramas of evil and sin.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: EVIL
“We cannot say without denying the Divine omnipotence, that another equally perfect universe could not be created in which evil would have no place.”

www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm
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As we see above, if sin would be contrary to the purpose and intention of God He would create this world in which evil would have no place.

God actively willed to create in this world the dramas of evil and sin for good reason, to convert our sins into greater good.

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CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

Evil He converts into good (Genesis 1:20; cf. Psalm 90:10); and suffering He uses as an instrument whereby to train men up as a father traineth up his children (Deuteronomy 8:1-6; Psalm 65:2-10;

Nor would God permit evil at all, unless He could draw good out of evil (St. Augustine, “Enchir.”, xi in “P.L.”, LX, 236; “Serm.”

Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”,

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm

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As we see above Vico, evil and sins are far from contrary to the purpose and intention of God, in-fact evil and sins are INDISPENSABLE tools of God to make His design/ plan a reality.
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In fact without God created in this world the dramas of evil and sin and caused the “fall,” His eternal design/ plan could never be a reality.

So, God actively willed and created in this world the dramas of evil and sin.
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God bless

 

[Vico]

…

God does not cause moral evil is the point of the post.

Catechism

311 … God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil. 176 …

176 Cf. St. Augustine, De libero arbitrio 1,1,2: PL 32,1221-1223; St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II,79,1.

 

[Latin]

God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

His wisdom He so orders all events [SO MORAL EVIL IS OUTSIDE OF ALL EVENTS (I DON’T BUY IT)] within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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He directs all, (directs ALL means directs ALL) even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
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God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities, (all its activities EXCLUDES NOTHING). – John 15:5; … without Me you can do NOTHING.
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Yet all things, (all things does NOT excludes anything) whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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God bless

 

[Vico]

Vico:

God is in no way, directly or indirectly, the cause of moral evil.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains.

His wisdom He so orders all events [SO MORAL EVIL IS OUTSIDE OF ALL EVENTS (I DON’T BUY IT)] within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
.
He directs all, (directs ALL means directs ALL) even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities, (all its activities EXCLUDES NOTHING). – John 15:5; … without Me you can do NOTHING.
.
Yet all things, (all things does NOT excludes anything) whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12510a.htm
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God bless

Notwithstanding, God is not the cause of moral evil.

Note below that sin is due to "the wilful perversion of human liberty … contrary to the purpose and intention of God " and that “the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations”.

Catholic Encyclopedia ( Divine Providence)

The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order. God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities. In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Modern Catholic Dictionary may help you to understand:

Concursus. The divine activity in its relation to finite causes in the preservation and development of the world. Also called divine co-operation, it is immediate and universal because on it absolutely depends the continued activity of all creation. The inherent reason for the divine concursus lies in the active dependence of creatures on the Creator, not only for their being but for the power that flows from the being that they have.

(Etym. Latin con -, with + currere , to run: concursus , the coming together, coincidence.)

 

[SeekSalvation]

What implications does that have? God does not suffer from original sin or concupiscence, which is why Adam and Eve were created without them.

It is not I who does not understand God created man in his own image.

 

[o_mlly]

Yet all things, (all things does NOT excludes anything) whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.

Omniscience means all knowing. It does not mean all controlling. I know that my child will fall in learning to ride his new bicycle but I do not will it.

“Preordained” is a poor adjective to apply to God as He is timeless, that is, all things are present to Him. Preordained applies only to the action which occurs in time.

 

[DoughnutGuy]

Ignoring the question, I see.

 

[po18guy]

As to the seemingly rare and mysterious “catechism” - if you do not want the industrial strength 1995 Liberia Editrice version with the Imprimi Potest of Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, then there are several others, such as the USCCB Compendium, and a few really good ones by Fr. John Hardon, S.J. who was considered one of the best - if not the best - dogmatic theologians of the 20th century. Everything he wrote was SOLID.

 

[Latin]

Thank you for your post Vico, it is excellent and it is the core of Catholic Soteriology.

LET’S SEE THEM STEP BY STEP

The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end.

His wisdom created all things and all events and He so orders/ governs all things and all events within the universe.

God effects everything, the willing and the achievement. … (Thomas Aquinas, S. Th.II/II 4, 4 ad 3).

The concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.

308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because God alone is the cause of our willing and choosing. CG, 3.91.

God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities.

301 … God does not abandon his creatures to themselves … but also, and at every moment, upholds and sustains them in being, enables them to act and brings them to their final end. Recognizing this utter dependence with respect to the Creator is a source of wisdom and freedom, of joy and confidence.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

307 God thus enables men to be intelligent and free causes in order to complete the work of creation, to perfect its harmony for their own good and that of their neighbors.
Though often unconscious collaborators with God’s will, they can also enter deliberately into the divine plan by their actions.
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Evil, therefore, ministers to God’s design (St. Gregory the Great, op. cit., VI, xxxii in “P.L.”

In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin.

I’m sorry but I cannot give any explanation to this highly offensive statement and I don’t have any idea for what reason sin is contrary to the purpose and intention of God, when our sins are “ministers to God’s eternal design/ plan” and sin is an indispensable tool of God to complete His design/ plan of the universe.

But we did not create this dramas of evil and sin, God created it at His cause of the “fall,” of course for good reason and for our benefit.

So, for what reason sin is contrary to the purpose and intention of God in this side of eternity?

This is for you Vico to explain because I cannot.

Thank you Vico for your explanation.
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God bless

 

[Latin]

Omniscience means all knowing. It does not mean all controlling. I know that my child will fall in learning to ride his new bicycle but I do not will it.
Preordained applies only to the action which occurs in time.

I agree, Omniscience means all knowing.

I also agree, Preordained applies only to the action which occurs in time.

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This is the explanation of the CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence which I believe.

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.
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He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.
.
God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities. – John 15:5; … without Me you can do NOTHING.
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Yet all things, whether due to necessary causes or to the free choice of man, are foreseen by God and preordained in accordance with His all-embracing purpose.”

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OF COURSE WE SHOULD NEVER FORGET: God alone is the cause of our willing and choosing and we always freely choose.

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. …”
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
.
St. Thomas teaches that all movements of will and choice must be traced to the divine will: and not to any other cause, because God alone is the cause of our willing and choosing . CG, 3.91.
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God bless

 

[o_mlly]

“His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized. …

2022; “The divine initiative in the work of grace precedes, prepares, and elicits the free response of man. …”

“Order” in these citations does not mean command but refers to God’s Eternal Law known to us through direct revelation, through right reason in the natural law and through His Church’s teachings. The ordered life follows God’s laws.

Prevenient or actual grace is God working in us in every moral decision to do good, to elicit the good. Without God, man can do no good.

The Eternal Law embodies the government of God, who graciously guides and directs the intellect and the will of man lest these fall into error. The Eternal Law and actual grace are necessary but not sufficient to do good, man’s free response is also necessary. We can reject God’s offer of friendship. Which is the Original Sin.

 

[Vico]

…

Although you quote St. Gregory and St. Thomas Aquinas, you not posting the dogmas of faith from the Catholic Church, which would be clear statements. We know from those, posted earlier, that what is stated in Catholic Encyclopedia is correct (and it it helpful that C.E. has imprimature and nihil obstat).

• In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin.

I posted the definition of concursus so you would understand concurrence. When a person acts, the action is made possible by God through divine cooperation. It is the will of God that a person freely choose good or evil themselves. God does not force a person to do evil. God is not the cause of their sin. God desires that all in general be saved, even knowing that some persons will not be saved.

Catechism

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; 620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end.

620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529)S 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.

 

[Latin]

Preordained applies only to the action which occurs in time.

I believe O_Mlly your above statement is correct.

Every action/ event which occurs in time (good and “bad/ sin” which God converts into good = at the end, good and good), eternally designed/ planned by God and preordained from all eternity.

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310 But why did God not create a world so perfect that no evil could exist in it?
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world in a state of journeying towards its ultimate perfection, 314 through the dramas of evil and sin.

As we see above God had to create the dramas of evil and sin, but in reality when God designed/ planned and preordained the dramas of evil and sin, through the dramas of evil and sin, God designed/ planned and preordained the good, which good He converts from our acts of sins.
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In the way described above, by God converting the dramas of evil and sins into good, the dramas of evil and sins are not only nullified but converted into good.
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324 Faith gives us the certainty that God would not permit an evil if he did not cause a good to come from that very evil, by ways that we shall fully know only in eternal life.

.
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA Divine Providence explains;

“His wisdom He so orders/ causes all events/ actions within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized.

He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.” Amplification added.
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As we see above, when God directing all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created,” in reality He is directing all good.

Original Sin.

The action of “original sin” is designed/ planned and predestined by God from all eternity for good/ benefit of the entire human race as we see above.

Instead of “Original sin,” would be far more appropriate to say Original Good/ O happy “fault”.

In reality it was no one’s fault, God designed/ planned the dramas of evil and sins and He CAUSED the “fall” out of infinite wisdom and goodness for the benefit of the entire human race.

412 … Exsultet sings, ‘O happy fault,. . . which gained for us so great a Redeemer!’"308
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God bless

 

[Latin]

It is the will of God that a person freely choose good or evil themselves.

THE MYSTERY OF PREDESTINATION by John Salza

“Sufficient grace remains an interior impulse, whereas an efficacious grace produces an exterior act.

With efficacious grace, man is able to resist the grace but does not, because the grace causes him to freely choose the good.

This means that when God wills a person to perform a salutary act (e.g., prayer, good works), He grants him the means (an efficacious grace ) that infallibly produces the end ( the act willed by God ).

If God wills to permit a person to resist His grace, He grants him a sufficient, and not an efficacious, grace.

The distinctions between these graces reveal that God is responsible for man’s salvation."

FOR EXAMPLE
Page 113: “However, the Church teaches that God infused Adam with sufficient grace to resist temptation and to perform his duties with charity.
God, however, willed to permit Adam to reject His grace and to sin.”

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The same principle apply to us as well, when God wills that we commit and act of sin, He infuses us with a sufficient grace and we infallibly reject the grace and we commit an act of sin.

When God wills that we reject a temptation of sin or to do an act of good He infuses us with an efficacious grace and we FREELY and INFALLIBLY cooperate with efficacious grace.

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THE TECHNICALITY THE WAY THESE TWO KINDS OF GRACES WORKS

To know the technicality first we have to know the TECHNICALITY of the “fall.”

At the “fall,” God removed the heart of flesh and put a heart of stone instead.
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God made the “fallen” man/ old creation carnally minded, God also made him unable to subject to His law, (Rom.8:6-7). – Fallen man cannot redeem himself. (De fide.)
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God hardwired/ infused the “fallen” man/ old creation with the law of sin/ God enslaved man to sin, to all manner of evil desire, the inclinations for all kinds of sins, (Rom.7:8-23). etc.
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The events described above, at the “fall” God created the dramas of evil and sin, for the reason to convert our sins into greater good.

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THE WAY THE EFFICACIOUS AND THE SUFFICIENT GRACES WORKS

Efficacious graces overrides our inclinations to sin and we always freely cooperate, while our inclinations to sin overrides sufficient graces and we always freely reject to cooperate with sufficient graces.

As the results, with the provisions of efficacious an sufficient graces God is in total control, we always freely choose what God wills us to choose.
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308 The truth that God is at work in all the actions of his creatures is inseparable from faith in God the Creator.
God is the first cause who operates in and through secondary causes: "For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."171
.
God bless

 

[thistle]

First, it would not be appropriate to include our Blessed Lord in the “four people who were created without original sin” for two reasons. 1) He was not created and 2) being God, He could not have sinned.

John the Baptist was born free from original sin. He is the fourth person.