The problem with Fatima

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JoshuaIsLord said:
Some fires were actually the burning fumes of decaying matter as that would be 99% of the composite of a land fill back during that era of time ( no paper, no plastic,etc etc etc.).
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No recyclables?
JoshuaIsLord said:
My Bible does not go past the “Revelations”.
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It doesn’t say, “The End,” but “Amen,” unless you have the Modern Dynamic Equivalence version. And it is not a big deal, but Revelation is not a plural, and before any one says something, it is also not the Revelation of John, but the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

Interesting, is it not, that this apocalyptic literature is about revealing stuff, as opposed to a secret, which is about hiding stuff.
 
Cone said:
There are two problems with the Fatima miracle that lead me to tend to doubt its authenticity.

The vision of Hell. The depiction of Hell as a literal lake of fire is a concept the Church has been getting away from. If the Blessed Mother was giving the children a metaphorical vision to scare them into good behavior, then the Blessed Mother is deceitful, which of course is not possible.

According to Lucia, the Blessed Mother told her that their friend, Amelia, would be in Purgatory until the end of time. if that’s the fate of a child, what hope is there for the rest of us?
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  1. Why would you not believe something that is explicitly stated in the Bible?
  • “the furnace of fire, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”
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  • “He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
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  • “And if your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the everlasting fire.”
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  • “As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them . . . are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”
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  • “And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever.”
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  • “These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.”
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  • “But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
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  • “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’"
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  1. If you want to avoid long times in purgatory: A) Don’t sin. B) Go to confession. That is our “hope for the rest of us”!
 
Whenever I see anything that fills a space way bigger than a football field with happy Catholics praying the Rosary, standing through a 3 hour Mass, doing Adoration and maybe even hiking a couple miles to do the Stations of the Cross, and then somebody comes along having a “problem” with it, I tend to think this “problem” is in the head of the beholder.
 
Note in your definition it says it is post-biblical, meaning, after the Bible. When Jesus was around it probably had some of that meaning, but it was also possibly fluid. We also need to remember Jesus was a Jew of his generation. Interesting that Jesus also used Hades, for the same place (?).

Some of this has been defined and some has not. I am like you on your end times stuff. I will find out about it in time.
 
You need not believe Fatima, or have a devotion to it. If it troubles you, look elsewhere for spiritual comfort. Still, the problem is not with Fatima, or with the Church’s ruling on it - it is with your human nature. The human will is inclined to resist all that is related to God. Do not let doubt creep in, as that is planted by the evil one. Rather, give yourself time and pray over it and you will receive your answer. Just be as patient with the Lord as He has been with you.
 
Fatima is legitimate and there’s no problem with anything contained within it. Hell is a real place of torment and fire. Just because people are squeamish about Hell doesn’t mean God wouldn’t allow people to see it, and that includes children. I believe the squabbling over the consecration is worthless drivel. Concerning the kid who would be in purgatory until the end of time, we don’t know the state of her soul at death, also time may be perceived differently in purgatory than here. At the end of the day you can either choose to heed Mary’s approved apparitions or not but regardless you cannot deny that they were investigated and found to be legitimate.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
Devotion to Our Lady of Fatima is one of the big issues I have with Marian devotion.

In my mind, no mother, especially the Mother of God, would use horrific, graphic images of Hell to scare children.
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No mother would show her children the very real possibility of Hell that could await them if they live sinful lives?

Hiding the truth isn’t love, but hatred.
 
Fatima is legitimate and there’s no problem with anything contained within it
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The Church teaches that Fatima is a private revelation. And yes, Fatima is a ‘legitimate’ private revelation. You can not deny this fact.

And being a private revelafion, no Catholic is bound to believe it. That is Church teaching… you can not deny that fact either.

If you believe in these private revelations, that is fine, but don’t force your beliefs on others. Or talk as though these things must be believed.
 
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po18guy said:
it is with your human nature. The human will is inclined to resist all that is related to God
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I disagree… humans are not inclined to resist all that is related to God. Quite the contrary, humans have a deep, natural longing for God.
 
pianistclare said:
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J_Peterson:
I wonder if the saved can see hell? If it’s a place that is completely separated from God, how can someone that is one with God see it? Not sure if that’s a nonsensical question.
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No, actually it’s a good question. One that I wish @frdavid96 wouls weigh in on. If there is an answer, he is the one who knows it.
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Wow. That’s a big one.

I don’t actually have a direct answer, but some thoughts:

Our resurrected bodies will be true bodies and fully working (ie no illness); HOWEVER that Resurrection has not yet happened, so those in heaven are pure souls. The fullness of the Beatific Vision will not occur until the Final Judgement (Summa, supplement, question 92 ff). Since heaven and hell are separated, “seeing” into hell would be an intellectual vision, not a bodily function of the eyes–in other words, seeing hell from heaven would not be like looking through some window in the floor. Instead, it would be purely a vision of the intellect.

Heaven is pure happiness. I cannot understand how seeing the eternal suffering of others would be a happy event. Unless, one adds the element that in heaven the saints understand Divine Justice (in a way that we on earth can only begin to imagine) and so they would see hell in the context of Divine Justice and understand that suffering within that context.

Even in heaven, the saints are still learning, and will continue to do so until the Final Judgement. So, at the present time, some saints understand more than others. Perhaps those who are ready (such as Our Blessed Mother) are able to see into hell because they possess the requisite understanding of Divine Justice to be capable of seeing that suffering while not partaking of the suffering (similar to the pain we feel when we see a human body badly mangled and it causes us pain even though we’re only looking at a TV news image).

So maybe that’s part of the answer. Maybe those who are ready can see hell, or even see into it. ??? I’m certainly not saying I know the answer, I’m just offering some thoughts.
 
Private revelations are like music:

True, you don’t need either one to get to Heaven;
True, some religious music, and some private revelations, are questionable;
True, both are of less importance than the Mass;
True, it is a problem if you rely on the hymns, or on private revelation, as the main source of your theology;
But:

Sometimes a particular hymn, at a certain time, touches the heart of some people, and encourages them to live out the truths in public revelation. Sometimes a certain private revelation touches the heart of some people, at this point in their lives, and does the same thing.
If you don’t like church music, ok. But don’t criticize others who do. Same with private revelations.
Stay away from unapproved private revelations, or unapproved interpretations of approved private revelations. Never use Fatima to evaluate the messages of the current pope and bishop; always use the messages of the current pope and bishop to evaluate the message of Fatima in 2017.
The original, approved part of “Fatima” is about personal conversion. Am I converted today? Am I a blessing to encourage the conversion of others today? That is the question we have to answer each day.
 
This is a forum and no one is forcing beliefs on anyone. I clearly said you can choose to heed the apparitions or not. If you don’t like what people have to say here please find another topic. I will continue to say what needs said.
 
FrDavid96 said:
I don’t actually have a direct answer,
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The voice of the Church. There is just so much that has not been revealed by the Holy Spirit about what happens after death and at the end of time. If we knew too much, would faith even be necessary?

Yes, we can speculate, and more, we can read the speculation of the great minds that came before us. Or we can clean the house, go to work and live our lives in service to God. Let Him worry about the big stuff.
 
Oneofthewomen said:
Devotion to Our Lady of Fatima is one of the big issues I have with Marian devotion.

In my mind, no mother, especially the Mother of God, would use horrific, graphic images of Hell to scare children.
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Did Our Lady of Fatima appear for the children’ sake? NO! She did not appear in the remote countryside in a small Portuguese area named after a Muslim princess for the sake of three small unimportant children. 100 years ago in the time of WWI and the Russian Revolution she appeared to give the World a message. The children were indeed tormented by this vision of hell. These children were stronger than any adults I have ever known, even ready to die in boiling oil rather than disclose the secret or recant their testimony. These children are now in the company of their heavenly Mother. How many others have been saved by Our Lady’s visit, message and miracle?
 
Hell is a torturous pit of fire and also the torture of the eternal absence of God. Literally all of Scripture, tradition, and writings of the saints confirm this.
 
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