The problem with the Abortion debate

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TheLittleLady said:
Apologies ahead of time, big walls of text are difficult for me to read.

I found these books to be helpful:
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A few posts on a thread are difficult (and apologies if you suffer a physical problem) but you want us to read two books?
 
blackforest said:
I would definitely agree there’s a difference, albeit not a bioethical one. Late-term abortions are less safe, more painful physically with longer recovery, and, yes, likely more emotionally traumatizing. But legally speaking, mainstream pro-choice groups don’t want them treated differently. They’re OK with a delivered fetus/baby dying outside the womb, sacrificing him/herself to protect abortion at any phase for any reason.
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So we have some common ground. That’s always a great thing to have in any discussion. We now agree that there is a difference between an abortion at a few days and an abortion near term.

That also takes out any argument that you suggested that ‘mainstream pro life’ groups have. They MUST be treated differently.

So how do we proceed from here, now we’re on the same page?
 
I think a lot of people here are making arguments based on their own beliefs, and what they have come to by their own understanding and conclusions.

I want to emphasize as Christians and more specifically as Catholics, we must look to God the Father and the Church’s understanding of this issue. Which is that life begins at conception, and abortion at any stage is immoral.
 
jrgmercado said:
However, if you injure a pregnant woman, in many states there is an added/more serious charge.
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It would be interesting to find out if there is a definition of pregnant here. If there was a way to determine that she was a week pregnant, would an additional charge of murder ensue? As opposed to a, quite reasonable in my opinion, charge if she was 8 months pregnant.

That fact that this question can even be asked is illustrative of the problems in determining ‘personhood’. Let’s face it, we all need to look this up.
 
LovingWife822 said:
I think a lot of people here are making arguments based on their own beliefs, and what they have come to by their own understanding and conclusions.

I want to emphasize as Christians and more specifically as Catholics, we must look to God the Father and the Church’s understanding of this issue. Which is that life begins at conception, and abortion at any stage is immoral.
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How would you know ‘God the Father’s understanding of this issue’? Do you have some sort of direct communication?
 
LovingWife822 said:
I think a lot of people here are making arguments based on their own beliefs, and what they have come to by their own understanding and conclusions.

I want to emphasize as Christians and more specifically as Catholics, we must look to God the Father and the Church’s understanding of this issue. Which is that life begins at conception, and abortion at any stage is immoral.
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No, no and no again! YOU have to decide if the church is right. You are allowed to question what the church teaches. It doesn’t want automatons. You are REQUIRED to decide yourself.

Unless I am wrong, you are a Catholic BECAUSE you have decided that what the church teaches is correct. Otherwise…what is the other option. You blindly accept what the church says? Of courrse you don’t.
 
What I said is that the Church has determined that life begins at conception, and the word of God obviously supports that. Of course abortion wasn’t mentioned explicitly. I would never accept a church dogma unless it was supported by the word of God, which is my moral compass.
 
LovingWife822 said:
What I said is that the Church has determined that life begins at conception, and the word of God obviously supports that. Of course abortion wasn’t mentioned explicitly. I would never accept a church dogma unless it was supported by the word of God, which is my moral compass.
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I understand what the Church’s position regarding abortion is. But how exactly does the NT support this position? In which specific verse/verses?
 
Remember, the Church came before the Bible. The Church gave us the Bible.
 
Luke 1:41-44
"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.”

Luke 1:15
“He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth.”
 
LovingWife822 said:
Luke 1:41-44
"And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy.”

Luke 1:15
“He will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even before his birth.”
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Does not seem related to abortion to me. But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
LovingWife822 said:
It relates to life beginning in the womb, at conception.
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Those verses are talking about Jesus. You could say that about him even before conception. But as I said interpreting it the way you wish is your prerogative.
 
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2271 Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:

You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish.

God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2271.htm
 
The second verse speaks about John the Baptist. They show that it is a life in the mothers’ womb.
 
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openmind77 said:
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LovingWife822:
What I said is that the Church has determined that life begins at conception, and the word of God obviously supports that. Of course abortion wasn’t mentioned explicitly. I would never accept a church dogma unless it was supported by the word of God, which is my moral compass.
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I understand what the Church’s position regarding abortion is. But how exactly does the NT support this position? In which specific verse/verses?
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Science has also already determined that human life begins at conception.
 
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