The proof of the existence of Jesus

[Imagine23]

So why , according to this logic, are there still doubters in the world???

Mohammed simply added the story of Jesus to his false prophesy to make it sound more credible.

Can you prove that Mohammed’s prophesy was false?

 

[Contarini]

Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians are not fully aware of is that it is none other than the Qur’an which is the proof that he existed.

This is because if the story of Jesus did not really happen, then for what plausible reason could there be for an Arabic scripture to unreservedly proclaim a Jewess named Maryam (Mary) as one of the greatest women who ever lived and name a whole chapter in the Qur’an after her and yet by comparison, not even once mention the name of Amina (ra), the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) within it?

Simple logic therefore dictates that the story of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) and his mother Maryam (ra) must surely have been true for the Arabs to wholeheartedly accept and accord such a high and mighty reverence for them.

That’s completely illogical. All that you have proven is that Arabs 600 years after the fact believed that Jesus was real, no doubt because of their contacts with Christians. The Qur’an adds absolutely nothing to the evidence for Jesus. To outsiders, it appears obvious that the Qur’an is a garbled record of Jewish and Christian belief. I know that this is not how you see it, and indeed that you think what I have said is blasphemy. I am not trying to convince you of this, but that’s how it looks to non-Muslims.

Edwin

 

[hamba2han]

All that you have proven is that Arabs 600 years after the fact believed that Jesus was real, no doubt because of their contacts with Christians.<<<

The Muslim descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) 600 years after the fact had absolutely no doubts that Jesus (pbuh) was real.

The Muslim descendants of Ishmael (pbuh) today i.e. 2,000 years after the fact have absolutely no doubts that Jesus was real.

In fact, it is an article of faith for a Muslim to believe in Jesus (pbuh) and to deny his existence would render one to be no longer a Muslim – such is the gravity of not believing in any of the Prophets of Allah.

I believe that practicing Muslims would place a great deal more faith in Jesus than most Christians today for we are, after all, awaiting his second coming.

 

[colliric]

All that you have proven is that Arabs 600 years after the fact believed that Jesus was real, no doubt because of their contacts with Christians.<<<

I don’t need the Muslim opinion on the issue when the Jews have the documented evidence of his execution on the day of the Passover, which was Friday.

Muslims living well after the time and “their faith in jesus” are therefore of no effect, because we have the evidence from the Jewish sources of the time, which corroborate the gospel testimony of his existence and subsequent execution.

You need to do study on the Jewish Opinion on Jesus and why they are of the opinion “He existed but he was just a very good human being”. Because their writers and teachers in the 1st century knew him and WROTE about him and knew that their teachers had approached Pontius Pilate to have him killed.

 

[hamba2han]

This is not about convincing those who already believe in Jesus (pbuh) about the truth of his existence, it is about providing convincing proof to the many doubters who do not believe that he actually lived.

Like I mentioned in my original post, considering that there are many who doubt and question whether there really was such a historical figure named Jesus, it is obvious that Christians have not been able to do this by relying on Jewish and early Christians accounts.

This is where there is a big difference between the faith of Christians and Muslims for unlike Christians, Muslims do not at all rely on Jewish scriptures and writings in order to strengthen our own faith and convictions.

For those who doubt or dispute the existence of Jesus (pbuh), then I wish for them to provide a plausible answer to this question:

Considering all the disparaging and often downright insulting things that are written in Jewish scriptures about Ishmael (pbuh), then why are the descendants of Ishmael wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even the slightest possibility that they did not exist in history?

 

[kellie]

This is not about convincing those who already believe in Jesus (pbuh) about the truth of his existence, it is about providing convincing proof to the many doubters who do not believe that he actually lived.

Like I mentioned in my original post, considering that there are many who doubt and question whether there really was such a historical figure named Jesus, it is obvious that Christians have not been able to do this by relying on Jewish and early Christians accounts.

But there are still doubters in the world.
So Islam hasn’t solved that problem at all.

hamba2han:

This is where there is a big difference between the faith of Christians and Muslims for unlike Christians, Muslims do not at all rely on Jewish scriptures and writings in order to strengthen our own faith and convictions.

No, but Mohammed relied on Christian Scripture to strengthen his own convictions and the Koran’s.

 

[Angelos]

This question had been brought up by another muslim in another thread. Therefore, I shall do nothing more than give the link to my previous answers:

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=125623

The only thing I can say is that the Qoran fails to provide ample evidence for the “existence” of Jesus because *only *Muslims consider it a reliable *historic *source & take for granted everything written there because of their faith. Thus, the supposed evidence in the Islamic Scripture would by no means convince atheists or skeptical historians since such people regard every sort of “Holy Scripture” as a recollection of fables & myths. Besides, the same group of people do not believe that Abraham lived in Mecca and constructed Ka’aba with Ishmael although such a claim is present only in the Qoran!

Peace & blessings,
Angelos N.

 

[colliric]

This question had been brought up by another muslim in another thread. Therefore, I shall do nothing more than give the link to my previous answers:

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=125623

The only thing I can say is that the Qoran fails to provide ample evidence for the “existence” of Jesus because *only *Muslims consider it a reliable *historic *source & take for granted everything written there because of their faith. Thus, the supposed evidence in the Islamic Scripture would by no means convince atheists or skeptical historians since such people regard every sort of “Holy Scripture” as a recollection of fables & myths. Besides, the same group of people do not believe that Abraham lived in Mecca and constructed Ka’aba with Ishmael although such a claim is present only in the Qoran!

Peace & blessings,
Angelos N.

That’s exactly why we have to look back into medieval times and find all the “censored” 1st century Jewish non-scriptural documents which confirm his existence and that the leaders of the Jewish faith had him killed for “practising magic”. So far we have 2 of them, and although one of them has been tainted it is still considered evidence because of the second reference’s rather Jewish wording. We can’t trust the Muslims which wrote centuries after Christ, we have to look to the first century Jews.

 

[hamba2han]

But there are still doubters in the world.
So Islam hasn’t solved that problem at all.

It seems to me that this ‘problem’ of people doubting the existence of Jesus (pbuh) is mainly prevalent in Western societies which of course are predominantly influenced by Christian teachings.

By comparison, in Muslim counties, non-Muslims are not doubting the existence of Jesus… Why is that?

No, but Mohammed relied on Christian Scripture to strengthen his own convictions and the Koran’s.

Like I mentioned, it really should not come as a big surprise if a younger brother ends up with similar notes as his older brothers when later on he goes to school and attends the same class and is taught by the same teacher.

This question had been brought up by another muslim in another thread. Therefore, I shall do nothing more than give the link to my previous answers:

forum.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=125623

The only thing I can say is that the Qoran fails to provide ample evidence for the “existence” of Jesus because *only *Muslims consider it a reliable *historic *source & take for granted everything written there because of their faith. Thus, the supposed evidence in the Islamic Scripture would by no means convince atheists or skeptical historians since such people regard every sort of “Holy Scripture” as a recollection of fables & myths. Besides, the same group of people do not believe that Abraham lived in Mecca and constructed Ka’aba with Ishmael although such a claim is present only in the Qoran!

Peace & blessings,
Angelos N.

You still have not answered the question I asked:

Considering all the disparaging and often downright insulting things that are written in Jewish scriptures about Ishmael (pbuh), then why are the descendants of Ishmael wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even the slightest possibility that they did not exist in history?

 

[ALotLessThumb]

It seems to me that this ‘problem’ of people doubting the existence of Jesus (pbuh) is mainly prevalent in Western societies which of course are predominantly influenced by Christian teachings.

By comparison, in Muslim counties, non-Muslims are not doubting the existence of Jesus… Why is that?

Hamba2han,

There are two fallacies in your argument.

The first one is:

People don’t doubt Christianity and Jesus because of Christian teachings- the doubt of Jesus is due to a lack of religion, those people who do not believe- do not believe period. They believe all religions and faiths are false- yours and mine. So it would be hard to prove the existence of Jesus because of the Quran- they would doubt any account.

The second is:

How many people in Muslim nations consider themselves atheists or agnostics? How many are given the freedom of religion and allowed to worship no gods to many gods? Currently, (at least from this outsiders persepective) those Muslim nations do not allow such freedoms- so it is hardly proof- particularly to a Western who is used to the freedom to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Like I mentioned, it really should not come as a big surprise if a younger brother ends up with similar notes as his older brothers when later on he goes to school and attends the same class and is taught by the same teacher.

This is a fairly reasonable metaphor; however it suggests the same teacher- and the same teacher made a covenant with the oldest brother which is supposed to last till the end of time, the middle brother says the teacher told him that the first covenant will last; but the teacher has fufilled and completed it for everyone, and not just one nation. Then the youngest brother comes along with similiar notes and suggests that the two older brothers who have very similiar notes and fairly good record keeping, have been incorrect for all this time and they messed up on their homework. But this stands in contrast of the first two brothers and the history laid out. It then is two against one on who has the “correct notes.”

Particularly when Islamic apologetics against Judaism and Christianity has changed drastically in one regard. In the first few centuries of Islam, the objection to Judaism/Christianity was that they misread and misinterpreted parts of the Sacred Scriptures.
Then, it changed into making the accusation that the Sacred Scriptures were altogether changed. The problem of course is that since this was a later accusation- one could look at Biblical manuscripts at the time of Muhammed to accurately judge whether between his time and ours the scriptures changed, and that they haven’t makes me curious as to why the accusation changed in the first place- other than the fact that there is a good amount of historical evidence for the practices and beliefs of both Judaism and Christianity as is throughout the centuries.

Futhermore, you undermine your own argument about the “brothers and pupil” by…

Considering all the disparaging and often downright insulting things that are written in Jewish scriptures about Ishmael (pbuh), then why are the descendants of Ishmael wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even the slightest possibility that they did not exist in history?

calling into the question Judaism and its scriptures. Because if they denigrated Ishmael before the time of Muhammed- how is it even possible to trust that Ishmael existed? The only source of his existence (to any give witness to the Qu’ran) is the account found in the Old Testament.

If I may ask you a few questions,

As you speak of the descendants of Ishmael and point out the Jewish identity of Mary…how important of a role is tribe/nation in Islam?

Because from my current understanding, The Qu’ran speaks both of a nationalistic covenant (like in Judaism) and a universal one (like in Christianity.) Aspects of Islam suggest that Muhammed was for the Arabs and they are the new people of the convenant and people must convert into the national system in order to being in God’s good graces. If this is the case, why are people “of the book” allowed to continue to practice their faiths? Isn’t this a contradiction?

On the other hand, Islam also speaks of a universal system where everyone is equal and allowed to express themselves as such. Furthermore, salvation is achieved by a weighing of good deeds against bad deeds- and that one doesn’t need to really convert in order to “be saved.” Yet there are several handicaps to being a non-Muslim in Islamic society, the biggest being death for those that don’t believe or are not “of the book?” Isn’t this the same contradiction as above just turned around?

How does this all reconcile?

Sorry for the long question, I felt it needed to be properly drawn out- I thank you in advance for your answer or responses to my answers.

 

[Sixtus]

The Empty Tomb

 

[Angelos]

It seems to me that this ‘problem’ of people doubting the existence of Jesus (pbuh) is mainly prevalent in Western societies which of course are predominantly influenced by Christian teachings

.

Wrong presumption! Western societies are by no means predominantly influenced by Christian teachings. The ones approaching even Jesus’ existence with much doubt are the zealous followers of agnostic/rationalist/positivist/materialistic/atheistic movements that began in the period of the so-called Enlightenment!

By comparison, in Muslim counties, non-Muslims are not doubting the existence of Jesus… Why is that?

You must know the exact answer to this question. More, the word “non-Muslim” defines believers of other faiths(mainly Jews & Christians), not atheists! I wonder if atheists in Muslim countries can publicly criticize anything related to Islam? I only know what happened to an originally Muslim atheist guy that wrote a novel about a historic incident mentioned in the Qoran!

Like I mentioned, it really should not come as a big surprise if a younger brother ends up with similar notes as his older brothers when later on he goes to school and attends the same class and is taught by the same teacher.

What if the younger brother is a naughty student that copies some notes from his elder brother’s notebook at home rather than attend the same class & listen to the same teacher? What if that naughty student also tampers with his elder brother’s notes so as to blame him of not listening to the teacher whilst he keeps lying that he goes to school in order to convince the people that he knows everything better?

You still have not answered the question I asked:

Considering all the disparaging and often downright insulting things that are written in Jewish scriptures about Ishmael (pbuh), then why are the descendants of Ishmael wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even the slightest possibility that they did not exist in history?

If you had read my posts carefully, you would not have repeated your question. Anyway, I cannot see “downright insults” written in Jewish scripture about Ishmael! Why do you think the Jews did not delete Ishmael’s name from their Scripture altogether?

More to the point, the Koran nowhere states that Jesus & Mary were Jewish!!! According to the Islamic Scripture, even Abraham was a Muslim! (new ethnic origin: Islam) LOL
Read your Scripture better next time please

Peace to you,
Angelos N. (ex-Muslim)

 

[hamba2han]

ALotLessThumb, I have sent you a PM.

Angelos, you can spin it any which way you desire but you have still not answered the question I asked.

 

[Contarini]

Considering all the disparaging and often downright insulting things that are written in Jewish scriptures about Ishmael (pbuh), then why are the descendants of Ishmael wholeheartedly revering a Jewess named Maryam (ra) and her son if there is even the slightest possibility that they did not exist in history?

Because the Qur’an told them to. The Qur’an, from our perspective, was written by Muhammad (pbuh), who was deeply influenced by Jewish and Christian ideas. He took these traditions and fashioned them into a form that was acceptible to Arabs and would convince them to embrace Abrahamic monotheism. I do not mean that Muhammad (pbuh) deliberately set out to manipulate or deceive. I am certain that he believed that he was acting under direct divine inspiration, and in a partial sense I can grant that he was so doing (it is certainly the work of God to bring people from idolatry to worship the One God, and to practice the many admirable–though from a Christian perspective imperfect and mixed–moral precepts found in Islam).

Yours truly,

Edwin

 

[Sixtus]

Actually, there are several external proofs, aside from the Gospels and the Qur’an, that point to a historical Jesus.

There were pagan Roman diarists who had no interest in Christianity except for the fact that one Gallilean was preaching and had disciples and a large crowd followed Him.

I cannot recall the source now, but that much we know, there are other aspects of His life that were recorded by non-Christians purely from an historical point of view.

The Gospel of Mark is enough for me

 

[Giovanni]

Because the Qur’an told them to. The Qur’an, from our perspective, was written by Muhammad (pbuh), who was deeply influenced by Jewish and Christian ideas. He took these traditions and fashioned them into a form that was acceptible to Arabs and would convince them to embrace Abrahamic monotheism. I do not mean that Muhammad (pbuh) deliberately set out to manipulate or deceive. I am certain that he believed that he was acting under direct divine inspiration, and in a partial sense I can grant that he was so doing (it is certainly the work of God to bring people from idolatry to worship the One God, and to practice the many admirable–though from a Christian perspective imperfect and mixed–moral precepts found in Islam).

Just want to be clear here that mohammad didn’t write anything, for he could not read or write. His so called messages were passed down for about 150 years till they were finally written down in a non-chronological order, and who knows what was fudged. I would not use the koran for any historical facts or interpratation of anything, because it doesn’t make sense.

 

[colliric]

There were pagan Roman diarists who had no interest in Christianity except for the fact that one Gallilean was preaching and had disciples and a large crowd followed Him.

I cannot recall the source now, but that much we know, there are other aspects of His life that were recorded by non-Christians purely from an historical point of view.

The Gospel of Mark is enough for me

Why is no one listening to me?

This was Jewish first century Historian Josephus in his Antiquities work. He said he witnessed the execution of “James, Brother of Jesus, who was called ‘the Christ’”.

Also the Jewish people have their records of Jewish teachings at the time. The records very clearly state a man called Yeshu was executed on the Passover the day before the sabbath for teaching “magic”, it says this man was a preacher and healer from a place called Notzri(no one really knows what this refers to, but it is very similar to Nazarene.), had 4 known disciples, one of which was called Matai.

This is why Jesus name in Hebrew is traditionally Yeshu.

 

[kellie]

It seems to me that this ‘problem’ of people doubting the existence of Jesus (pbuh) is mainly prevalent in Western societies which of course are predominantly influenced by Christian teachings.

By comparison, in Muslim counties, non-Muslims are not doubting the existence of Jesus… Why is that?

Non-Muslims in Muslim countries ?? As in Christians ???

 

[hamba2han]

Because the Qur’an told them to.

Why should they believe the Qur’an if there is an element of doubt about the existence of Jesus (pbuh)?

Why was a Jewess accorded the honour of having a whole chapter in the Qur’an named after her and yet not a single word was mentioned in it of the mother of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) who was indeed a descendant of Ishmael (pbuh) and whose existence was not disputed at all.

Does it make much sense to you that Amina (ra) was not mentioned in the Qur’an and yet a Jewess whose existence may have been in doubt was so highly honoured by having a whole chapter named after her?

If there was even the slightest doubt about the existence of the Jewess and her son, then surely it would have made a great deal more sense to include the name of Amina (ra) in the Qur’an instead of Maryam (ra), don’t you think?

It is not faith but plain logic which makes the Qur’an far more convincing at proving the existence of Jesus (pbuh) than any written source before it.

Just want to be clear here that mohammad didn’t write anything, for he could not read or write. His so called messages were passed down for about 150 years till they were finally written down in a non-chronological order, and who knows what was fudged. I would not use the koran for any historical facts or interpratation of anything, because it doesn’t make sense.

This is simply not true of how the Qur’an came into being.

Non-Muslims in Muslim countries ?? As in Christians ???

As in Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs and Taoists among others… and even atheists and agnostics for that matter.

 

[Montalban]

Christians have never been able to offer convincing proof to the many doubters in the world who just do not believe that Jesus ever lived.

Actually, the good news that most Christians are not fully aware of is that it is none other than the Qur’an which is the proof that he existed.

Imagine that! Those poor Christians going around for 600 years without proper proof that Jesus existed. Thank God that the Moslems came about, else Christianity might have vanished! And the Moslems, they were very happy to spread their Koran right across Egypt, northern Africa, down to Ethiopia, across the Iberian Peninsula, the Holy Land, Asia Minor, the Caucasus region, up into parts of Russia, and across into the Balkans, and even up to Crimea. All those Christians that they conquered were mightily relieved that they now had these proofs that were missing!

Hamba2han, thank you for reminding us of this great debt the Christian world owes to Islam.