The properties of God.

[Detales]

1holycatholic, in all respect, I’m not here to do your homework or be a reference library for you. Go and study the history of world religions from about 3000 BCE to present, with specific attention to ascending and descending forms of religion, the various ideas of the Nature of God, cultural and geographical influences on religious thought, esoteric and exoteric forms, integrations philosophy, comparative religion, the history of Catholicism, the history of religions in the time and place of Iesus, the problems inherent in language, translation, meaning, witnessing, collecting, selecting, the application of the structural differential to all of that, non-dualism as a third alternative to the binary God/no God, the nature of awareness as distinct from Consciousness, theories of religious psychology, mob mentality, the nature of organizations, the history and psychology of religious, political, and scientific and philosophical movements, introductory levels at least of such disciplines as teleology, epistemology, ontology, semantics, general semantics, symbolic logic, phenomenology, systems analysis, etc, etc, etc.

A very small beginning bibliography is included below:

Mark 4:33-34
Milwaukee Journal, Nov 16, 1963, p5
This Is The Faith Canon Francis Ripley
The Christian Agnostic L Weatherhead
Science and Sanity A Korzybski
Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism Chogyam Trungpa,
A History of the Warfare of Science With Theology in Christendom AD White
The Sociology of Religion T Hoult
Standing for Something GB Hinkley
Our Unseen Guest Darby and Joan
A History of Egypt H Breasted
A Sense of Unity: Sufi influence on Middle-Eastern Architecture University of Illinois press
Most books by Norman Vincent Peale & a few by Bishop FJ Sheen
The Pagan Christ & Water Into Wine Tom Harpur
*Those Incredible Christians *HJ Schonfield (& his intro to The Passover Plot)
The Story of the Bible EJ Goodspeed
Age of Reason T Paine
The Untold Story of the Dead Sea Scrolls Harpers,Magazine, Aug, 1966
The Lost Years of Jesus Revealed, The Story of Religion & Is That in the Bible? C Potter
Jesus Died in Kashmir & *Jesus. Moses, and the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel *A Faber-Kaiser
A Rationalist Encyclopedia
The World’s Living Religions R Hume
An Encyclopedia of Religion
anything by: Dr. KG Mills, Merrell-Wolff, Nisargadatta, Roberson, Ramana Maharshi, Krishnamurti, DR Hawkins, B Katie, or Ken Wilbur.
The Life and Sayings of Ramakrishna M Muller
Ethics of the Great Religions ER Pike
*The Crest Jewel of Discrimination *Adi Sankara
A New Look at the Bible Tradition LV Bischoff
An Autobiography: The Story of My Experiment With Truth M Gandhi
Asia Looks at Western Christianity T Ohm
Remembering FC Bartlett
God and the Bible & 3 others M Arnold
etc, etc, etc

---

 

[jkiernan56]

A orchestra consisting only of the oboe isn’t much of an orchestra. A meal consisting of just butter isn’t much of a meal.

It is very obvious to me that you have not yet smelled the flowers … but I’m sure you know everything there is about flowers … and have dissected them in all their parts … lol

 

[1holycatholic]

1holycatholic, in all respect, I’m not here to do your homework or be a reference library for you. Go and study the history of world religions from about 3000 BCE to present, with specific attention to ascending and descending forms of religion, the various ideas of the Nature of God, cultural and geographical influences on religious thought, esoteric and exoteric forms, integrations philosophy, comparative religion, the history of Catholicism, the history of religions in the time and place of Iesus, the problems inherent in language, translation, meaning, witnessing, collecting, selecting, the application of the structural differential to all of that, non-dualism as a third alternative to the binary God/no God, the nature of awareness as distinct from Consciousness, theories of religious psychology, mob mentality, the nature of organizations, the history and psychology of religious, political, and scientific and philosophical movements, introductory levels at least of such disciplines as teleology, epistemology, ontology, semantics, general semantics, symbolic logic, phenomenology, systems analysis, etc, etc, etc.

You’re avoiding the question. Specifically what “things done in the few hundred years after His ministry to historicize and politicize the life and Teaching attributed to the Master” are you referring?

 

[1holycatholic]

It is very obvious to me that you have not yet smelled the flowers … but I’m sure you know everything there is about flowers … and have dissected them in all their parts … lol

I don’t have to know everything about flowers. Your analogy is a poor.

 

[Detales]

Actually, 1holy, you proved '56’s assertion by your answer to me. I earned my standpoint, and though I disagree with his conclusions, I know from previous conversations that '56 did as well. Passus also has my respect. But though '56 and I disagree on some interpretation, we concur that you are a wonderful dissector who may be wonderful at exteriors, while not so good at going inside things. Both are necessary, and we have both done both. I see that you have not, else you could not ask the questions you do.

So while I have offered you numerous pointers as to the scholarship on the matter, you have studiously chosen questions that avoid the real issues. At this point, unless you do some background work which you clearly lack, we will go on without you. I have written all those essays before, some of them on here. Some, I believe, were to you on another thread. Go use that curious little button that allows you to read all of someone’s posts, or, as I did, go through the recommended reading matter. I will send you more when you are done.

At this point I don’t have the respect for you that would merit further conversation. Earn it, and we can converse again. At least others who have had similar contentions with me had a scholarly premise to come back with. But usually they just quit, primarily because their propositions are solely scholarly and not soul-ly convincing. Or like you, I loose respect for them on account of their imbalanced assertions. Relationship with God is a matter of Soul, not scholarship, as you might discover at some point. Iesus had some strong words on that matter. In the mean time, please don’t use the wimpy “I’m right because he didn’t answer my question” lameness of an excuse. I have answered your questions to the point that you demonstrated that you are not up to the work.

Thank you for your participation thus far.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC

 

[tonyrey]

Saying God’s love is His greatest attribute is incoherent. God’s attributes are inseparable. God can’t have the attribute of maximally perfect love without also having the attribute of maximally perfect truth, and for that matter every other attribute in** its **perfection.

To say that God’s love is His greatest attribute is not equivalent to saying that God’s attributes are inseparable. How could they possibly be separable? I pointed out that they are interdependent.

Nor is saying God’s love is His greatest attribute incoherent. Coherence means that there is integrity and unity: all the different attributes are consistent with one another and blend together perfectly. The greatness of love does not affect its consistency with truth or freedom or power.

“maximally” is a quantitative term. It implies that there is more love than truth - which is obviously nonsense. Greatness has nothing to do with the relative amounts of love or truth! Truth, power, freedom and creativity can exist without love and that is why we regard love as supreme. Our God is not the God of deism but a personal God: three Persons united by love. From a strictly **logical **point of view all God’s attributes may be equally important but from a personal point of view truth or power or freedom or creativity is less important than love. In that sense love is the greatest attribute. That is why Jesus said: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’.

 

[1holycatholic]

Actually, 1holy, you proved '56’s assertion by your answer to me. I earned my standpoint, and though I disagree with his conclusions, I know from previous conversations that '56 did as well. Passus also has my respect. But though '56 and I disagree on some interpretation, we concur that you are a wonderful dissector who may be wonderful at exteriors, while not so good at going inside things. Both are necessary, and we have both done both. I see that you have not, else you could not ask the questions you do.

So while I have offered you numerous pointers as to the scholarship on the matter, you have studiously chosen questions that avoid the real issues. At this point, unless you do some background work which you clearly lack, we will go on without you. I have written all those essays before, some of them on here. Some, I believe, were to you on another thread. Go use that curious little button that allows you to read all of someone’s posts, or, as I did, go through the recommended reading matter. I will send you more when you are done.

At this point I don’t have the respect for you that would merit further conversation. Earn it, and we can converse again. At least others who have had similar contentions with me had a scholarly premise to come back with. But usually they just quit, primarily because their propositions are solely scholarly and not soul-ly convincing. Or like you, I loose respect for them on account of their imbalanced assertions. Relationship with God is a matter of Soul, not scholarship, as you might discover at some point. Iesus had some strong words on that matter. In the mean time, please don’t use the wimpy “I’m right because he didn’t answer my question” lameness of an excuse. I have answered your questions to the point that you demonstrated that you are not up to the work.

Thank you for your participation thus far.

Bindar Doondat, FZPC

I’m not surprised you won’t defend what is tantamount to a conspiracy theory. You can’t. You’ve attempted to dodge the issue and now you’re taking your ball and going home.

 

[Detales]

And you. 1holy, are the proof of my pudding. And I would only seem to you to go back where I never left. It just took me a while to find that out. I hope you do as well. Bon chance,

Like I said, we can talk again after you have done some background check on yourself. I don’t think you are “wrong” or “bad” or any such thing, But I do sense you have an interesting experience before you.

A ball is but an object upon whose location we agree so that we may interact with each other. We give it our mutual attention so that there is a common reference. My “ball” is still in play; you just dropped it by ignoring the ratehr many invitaitons given you. Perhaps it woudl serve you to rereatd our posts with a fresh eye. When you experientially understand from whence you attention stems, we may chat again.

BD

 

[1holycatholic]

To say that God’s love is His greatest attribute is not equivalent to saying that God’s attributes are inseparable. How could they possibly be separable? I pointed out that they are interdependent.

Nor is saying God’s love is His greatest attribute incoherent. Coherence means that there is integrity and unity: all the different attributes are consistent with one another and blend together perfectly. The greatness of love does not affect its consistency with truth or freedom or power.

“maximally” is a quantitative term. It implies that there is more love than truth - which is obviously nonsense. Greatness has nothing to do with the relative amounts of love or truth! Truth, power, freedom and creativity can exist without love and that is why we regard love as supreme. Our God is not the God of deism but a personal God: three Persons united by love. From a strictly **logical **point of view all God’s attributes may be equally important but from a personal point of view truth or power or freedom or creativity is less important than love. In that sense love is the greatest attribute. That is why Jesus said: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’.

I’m not sure what prompted the deism comment, but it’s irrelevant.

In the dictionary maximally is defined as “greatest possible.”

Read the Catechism link:
GOD, “HE WHO IS”, IS TRUTH AND LOVE

Read Kreeft:
But both love and truth are absolutes. For they are eternal attributes of God. And in God they are not divided at all, but one thing. That’s why Jesus was both tough and gentle at once.

God’s commandments to man do not determine or define the attributes of God.

 

[grannymh]

Whew! what a relief. I though you were going to launch into a treaties on Church real estate. Perhaps in another thread?

The property surrounding my computer is now freckled with Pepsi. Thread? I need a towel.

 

[grannymh]

What properties or characteristics are required by an entity capable of creating the physical universe?

Prospective posters to this thread might kindly note that this is not a request for more reiterations of a catechism or quotes from the Bible. That is why it is posted in the philosophy section. It is an opportunity to consider the necessary and sufficient (i.e. minimum) properties of our Creator in the context of modern knowledge about how the universe works.

Hi Greylorn,

I promise to be good and give you a philosophical answer.

The first property of this entity is that he is immaterial/spiritual. Because of the complexity and magnitude of the physical universe, it follows that the immaterial/spiritual entity would have an uncomplicated intellect and will in order to provide the lowest common denominator or grid that underpins the universe.

Blessings,

All human beings are worthy of profound respect.

 

[tonyrey]

I’m not sure what prompted the deism comment, but it’s irrelevant.

 

[Detales]

Tonyrey~~"* I pointed out that Jesus Himself used the term “greatest” with reference to love - rather than truth or freedom. *

Which returns us to the unquantifiable interior accessible only through dialog. This is my contention with Scripture of any kind. It eliminates dialogue and relies on interpretation without response from the source. That makes the interpretation conjectural rather than teleological, as in a conversation.

This is the reason that the spoken traditions have a check on accuracy as they are handed down through a group. They can still change over time, but with a Scripture referencing alleged speech in Aramaic translated into another language which leaves copies of that as a primary documentary record, we have an enormous likelihood of misunderstanding of original intent. This is compounded by a contemporary ignorance of how myth and teaching was used in that day and age, especially in the area in question.

This is especially true as the core story we are dealing with has been around for at least 5000 years in some form or other. And given the acknowledgments of the Church Fathers as to the similarities of their expropriated story with existing myth, coupled with the burning of libraries and other proof of links to “pagan” belief, we have a conundrum on our hands. Even Origen had no rebuttal in a well documented debate with Celsus, a pagan philosopher, who said bluntly that "The Christian religion contains nothing but what Christians hold in common with the heathen; nothing new. Other Chuch fathers, and Augustine himself said that the Christian religion had nothing different in it than what had been held from the beginning of Man. That includes, we now know, Man in Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America at least.

So I again wish to state that it is duly rightful for the Church to confess its known origins and re-instate the power of myth used as a transformative mode of realization. As well it would be useful to de-historicize Jesus and free Him from a concretization instituted to gain power and numbers. Is not the burning of multiple libraries by the early christianists a pointer as well to the activity of disassociation with paganism that was then such a priority? Christianity was then so closely indistinguishable from paganism except for the name of the central figure that such disassociation was, in those minds, necessary to do.

This could be a phenomenally vital and powerful resurrection of the christianist faiths, if they would but see the lineage of their faith. Does that make it wrong? No, absolutely not. It just puts it on the right footing. Then we could stop all this bickering and get on with building or saving our world. What could be more loving than do doff the trappings of differences in acquired beliefs and revert to the Universal Principles that allowed the formation of our faith from the beginning?

 

[jkiernan56]

To say that God’s love is His greatest attribute is not equivalent to saying that God’s attributes are inseparable. How could they possibly be separable? I pointed out that they are interdependent.

Nor is saying God’s love is His greatest attribute incoherent. Coherence means that there is integrity and unity: all the different attributes are consistent with one another and blend together perfectly. The greatness of love does not affect its consistency with truth or freedom or power.

“maximally” is a quantitative term. It implies that there is more love than truth - which is obviously nonsense. Greatness has nothing to do with the relative amounts of love or truth! Truth, power, freedom and creativity can exist without love and that is why we regard love as supreme. Our God is not the God of deism but a personal God: three Persons united by love. From a strictly **logical **point of view all God’s attributes may be equally important but from a personal point of view truth or power or freedom or creativity is less important than love. In that sense love is the greatest attribute. That is why Jesus said: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: “You shall love your neighbour as yourself.” On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.’.

Toneyrey, your words moved me very deeply. The Kingdom of God is in your heart. I am very curious to hear how you have experienced God’s love … or how love in general has touched your life. All real love is from God. Love is the greatest power in the universe. Anyone who has not experienced this, no explanation is possible. It would be analogous to telling someone what sex is like for someone who has never experienced it.

So too, anyone who HAS experienced God’s love … or real love in general … .no explanation is necessary. They know the power of Love … and how there is nothing greater in all the universe.

1HolyCatholic - I do not mean any disrespect whatsoever. I will remember you in prayer that God’s love touches your life and turns it upside down. You will never be the same. You will smell the flowers in a different way. You will listen to music and hear it in a new way. You will love and be loved in a new way. You will want to live for love. Love will consume you. Love is the FIRE OF GOD’s HOLINESS.

 

[jkiernan56]

Hi Greylorn,

I promise to be good and give you a philosophical answer.

The first property of this entity is that he is immaterial/spiritual. Because of the complexity and magnitude of the physical universe, it follows that the immaterial/spiritual entity would have an uncomplicated intellect and will in order to provide the lowest common denominator or grid that underpins the universe.

Blessings,

All human beings are worthy of profound respect.

Hi MH … nice to see you

 

[jkiernan56]

The property surrounding my computer is now freckled with Pepsi. Thread? I need a towel.

I hope you don’t have a sticky keyboard … lol

Hey Granny, have you ever listened to Neil Diamond music? If you haven’t, I highly highly recommend you get ahold of a Neil Diamond DVD titled “Hot August Night”. It is sold only at Walmart … and if you listened to it … I know you would be deeply moved as I was … it will tear your heart out … you are a woman with a big heart … very blessed …

 

[Detales]

Grannymh, I am truly grateful you enjoyed that line. In the midst of all this back and forth it is good to have a sense of humor. Thanks for reminding me of that. I assure you I had no evil intentions aimed at your keyboard or desk! I’d pass you a towel through the screen, but I’m too often busy using it here for similar purposes. Good to “see” you again.

Bindar Doondat

 

[jkiernan56]

Tonyrey~~"*

This is the reason that the spoken traditions have a check on accuracy as they are handed down through a group. They can still change over time, but with a Scripture referencing alleged speech in Aramaic translated into another language which leaves copies of that* as a primary documentary record, we have an enormous likelihood of misunderstanding of original intent. This is compounded by a contemporary ignorance of how myth and teaching was used in that day and age, especially in the area in question.

There is one language that will never change. It is the language of love. It is as St. Augustine and St. John tell us … "always ancient and ever new "… God is love … and Love has now become Incarnate in Jesus. So regardless of how one may fear the interpretation of scripture over time though the many translations, it will never blemish what is at the very heart of the Scriptures - God’s love. If you keep your eye fixed on this truth, you will never get lost in the forest because of all the trees. Scripture is Gods love story. God is so in love with each of us that He became a human being. When you love someone, you want to be with the person that you love. God became man because He truly loves us and is in love with each one of us. Do not be afraid of not understanding the various interpretations of scripture - rather be afraid of loosing sight of what is most important and at the heart of Scripture … LOVE … loose sight of that and you really have become blind. I know this is true, because I have become lost many times - but by the grace of God … love keeps knocking on my door and waking me up … The very WORD of God became a human being in Christ - that is the heart of Scripture - God’s love for us … and more important … and above all other things … His personal love for YOU. God loves you and is in love with you. And God is a JEALOUS God. You know what a person can be like when they are jealous of someone … imagine what it must be like for God … who is very jealous for you to know His love … and for you to love Him. He is the Hound of Heaven … Love will always pursue you … all the days of your life … and once love has gotten ahold of you … “goodness and kindness will you follow you all the days of your life” as Psalm 23 tells us

 

[Detales]

'56, I agree with you about the Essential Love Nature of God. That is absolutely true to the best of my ability to see.

 

[jkiernan56]

'56, I agree with you about the Essential Love Nature of God. That is absolutely true to the best of my ability to see.

You are very blessed. The only reason I responded in this way was because someone earlier said something about how the “shadow” that has fallen over the Church. I don’t know about you, but when I watch the life of St. Teresa of Calcutta, or read the words of John Paul II … or the documents of Vatican II … I would say the Church is doing just fine … Love is still flowing and blowing through the Church … Love is the Holy Spirit … God’s Love is very evident in His Church … but then there is a real crisis in the Church at the same time … the crisis of Love … the crisis of people not knowing God’s love … the crisis of people not hungering and thirsting for love … which is the heart of holiness … love is holiness … the lack of religious vocations and the state of marriage in the Church is just symptomatic of what is really going on … the loss of real love and the loss of community … people hardly know each other on a personable basis in the Church … they say hi and bye to each other very quickly … people hardly know people in their own family … in my opinion there is a crisis of love … that is what is at the heart of vocations, that is what should be at the heart of marriage … and what Church is all about … or should be anyway … and one last thing … I strongly object to the idea that a vocation to the Priesthood is a “higher calling” or holier than say “a vocation to Marriage”. Being a Priest is not above being Married. They are both vocations to the same thing - Love. They are pathways to Love … but Christ is still the door … and only through Christ is anyone able to live out their vocation to Love … in my experience. Yes, I totally stand behind what I said earlier about what is God’s greatest characteristic or property. It is Love. God is Love … and I am trying to see all other properties of God through that lens or persective. Otherwise those other properties really loose their meaning in a way … at least for me. All of the prism of God’s properties must be seen through the “eye of the needle” … which is Love … God’s love

“And the greatest of these is love” St. Paul

“Nothing will ever be able to separate us from the Love of God in Christ” St. Paul

“God so loved the world that He sent His only Son, so that whoever believes in Him would have eternal life”

“God is love. Whoever lives in love … lives in God and God in them.”

“Whoever says they know God and love God, and yet hate the brother they can see - is a liar. For anyone who does not love the brother they can see, can not love God whom they have never seen”.

All of God’s commandments can be summed up in “Love God with all your heart” … and “Love you neighbor as yourself”. This is the greatest commandment.

I have not come to do away with the Law Christ says, but to fullfill it. Christ is the Law of God Incarnate. The Law of Love … a Person … The Law of God died on the cross - to fullfil the LAW. Christ is the Law … and God wants to write His Law on each of our hearts … His Law of Love … do good and turn away from sin … which is the failure to love