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Goth_Catholic
Guest
Actually, the Roman Catholic Church would refur only to the Latin Rite, as Eastern Catholics, although they are in full communion with Rome, they are not “Roman”.
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mgrfin
Guest
Congratulations!You speak very personally and openly about your spiritual journey: like yours, mine is linked to an intellectual one; after decades of agnosticism, I am back to my cradle and playground, the RCC, because I am persuaded She is true! How I ever thought otherwise I can now see arose from my foolish human pride, but also from my ignorance. Only by the Grace of God have I made it back, this time with my family, who will be admitted to the Church, Deo volente, this Friday.
.
May the RCC alway be your mistress, and this is only the beginning of your pilgrimage.
God bless you.
peace,
mgrfin
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mgrfin
Guest
All my professors of Theology must have missed that one about “deuterocanonicals cannot be used to prove doctrine”The canonical status of Maccabees is not certain (given the longstanding theological tradition holding that the deuterocanonicals cannot be used to prove doctrine), and anyway it’s not clear that any kind of post-mortem suffering is in question there (the purgation seems to be a matter of offering a sacrifice on behalf of the dead).
Council of Trent: “.
One hundred and fifty years before the Gospel was preaced to the world, belief in Purgatory finds unmistakable expression in the history of the victorious Machabee, Judas. This ancient hero, having lost a great number of warriors in battle, is not content with honoring them with a lavish burial: he orders a collection to be made, and sends the proceeds-----twelve hundred drachms of silver-----to Jerusalem, to have sacrifice offered for the deceased. “For,” he adds, “if he had not hoped that they who were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.” And because he considered those who had died in godliness, “had grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for ehe dead, that they may be loosed from sins.” [2 Mach. 12:44-46] Holy Scripture thus proclaims that Purgatory exists, and that our prayers and sacrifices are accepted in suffrage for the release of the departed.”
“(the purgation seems to be a matter of offering a sacrifice on behalf of the dead”
That is precisely the point. If there were no purgatory after death, why are we offering prayers and masses for the dead?
So much for Anglican theology.
peace,
mgrfin
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Contarini
Guest
There’s a whole thread on this called “The Real Presence: Augustine.” Augustine does use less “realist” language than other fourth-century Fathers such as Ambrose and Cyril of Jerusalem, on the whole. But obviously he did not think that the Real Presence was “just a symbol” in the modern sense.The main argument that I have heard Protestants use is that Augustine was a “symbolist” as opposed to a “realist” as it pertains to the Holy Eucharist. I simply want to know where Protestants get this silly idea?
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
Well, many posters on this board object to “Roman Catholic Church,” and you are the first who has objected to “Roman Communion.” I can’t keep track of who objects to what. “Roman Communion” is about as neutral a term as I can find, and I decline to abandon it simply on your say-so.Hypersensitive? I think not. I won’t accept terminology of “Roman Communion”. Call yourselves what you want, but treating us like any other sect is unacceptable. Please stay off the “Roman Communion” epithet.To re-quote you, “I have no patience with this claim of yours”.
That terminology is not neutral to us. Maybe you just didn’t think so. Or the circles in which you travel, find it ok. Not ok. That is carrying Ecumenism too far. Roman Catholic Church is not offensive, alledgedly or not. We are the Church, the Catholic Church, or the Roman Catholic Church - take your pick. “Roman Communion” is not on the list. It is equivalent to calling us “Papists”.
You cannot reasonably expect that non-Catholics will admit all the claims of your Church simply as a matter of courtesy. That really is pushing political correctness too far!
Edwin
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Contarini
Guest
Obviously this tradition was rejected by your Communion at the Council of Trent. However, one can find theologians from Jerome to Cajetan who maintained it.All my professors of Theology must have missed that one about “deuterocanonicals cannot be used to prove doctrine”
Ask the Orthodox. There are many ways of speaking of prayer for the dead that don’t involve purgatory. Perhaps prayer for the dead works retrospectively, affecting the person at the moment of death. Perhaps (as the Orthodox believe) it may actually affect a person’s eternal destiny in “borderline” cases (I am not fond of this idea, but it’s certainly a logical possibility). Perhaps (yes, this is a typically Anglican move) we really don’t know how prayer for the dead works. We don’t know how prayer for the living works, after all.That is precisely the point. If there were no purgatory after death, why are we offering prayers and masses for the dead?
The point is that prayer for the dead is the prior reality and purgatory is a theory to explain it. I think it’s a pretty good theory, but it’s still just a theory.
Edwin
B
Bishopite
Guest
What’s a “garden variety Anglican?”“Do you know of other Anglicans who hold to purgatory as a pursuasive theological truth? (as theological opinion of course).”
If you mean garden variety Anglcains, Edwin knows me.
GKC
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GKC
Guest
The intent was to convey that I’m not a C. S. Lewis.What’s a “garden variety Anglican?”
Probably overly cautious, at that. It likely was obvious already.
GKC
Anglicanus Catholicus
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mgrfin
Guest
I have never heard of “Roman Communion” before you used that term. I don’t know that you carry such weilght in theological circles that you can reasonably label us with your protestant term, simply because you don’t believe as much as we do.Well, many posters on this board object to “Roman Catholic Church,” and you are the first who has objected to “Roman Communion.” I can’t keep track of who objects to what. “Roman Communion” is about as neutral a term as I can find, and I decline to abandon it simply on your say-so.
You cannot reasonably expect that non-Catholics will admit all the claims of your Church simply as a matter of courtesy. That really is pushing political correctness too far!
Edwin
To reiterate, we go by “The Church”, The Catholic Church, or The Roman Catholic Church. We call ourselves Mother Church, or the Mystical Body of Christ. It was to us that the Holy Spirit entrusted the full deposit of faith, and 'the gates of hell will not prevail against us". We have been living this game of throwning off epithets for the past 2,000 years.
Protestants call us ‘the whore of Babylon", Papists, or as Luther will say, ‘papist asses’. I throw your perjorative term "Roman Communion’ in here with the rest.
I don’t expect non-Catholics to do anything, or believe anything we believe. Who knows the totality and breath of what they believe. One heresy is as good as another. One thousand, 2,000 or 3,000 sects - it’s all the same to me. You do us no favors as a distant, invalid cousin to us to pick and to choose what you want from the buffet, as though you were in some NY deli.
It is the Church. Credo in unam, sanctam, catholicam Ecclesiam. Protestants continue to cry, “Non Serviam”.
peace,
mgrfin
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Contarini
Guest
How much weight does one have to carry in order to try to communicate clearly? Your assumptions are unreasonably elitist.I have never heard of “Roman Communion” before you used that term. I don’t know that you carry such weilght in theological circles that you can reasonably label us with your protestant term, simply because you don’t believe as much as we do.
Edwin
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mgrfin
Guest
That’s a good one. A high church Anglican calling me a snob.How much weight does one have to carry in order to try to communicate clearly? Your assumptions are unreasonably elitist.
Edwin
peace,
mgrfin
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GKC
Guest
I’m not sure Edwin would classify himself as particularly high church.That’s a good one. A high church Anglican calling me a snob.
peace,
mgrfin
But high church = snobs, in your experience?
GKC
C
Contarini
Guest
I have never heard of “Roman Communion” before you used that term. I don’t know that you carry such weilght in theological circles that you can reasonably label us with your protestant term, simply because you don’t believe as much as we do.
To reiterate, we go by “The Church”, The Catholic Church, or The Roman Catholic Church. We call ourselves Mother Church, or the Mystical Body of Christ. It was to us that the Holy Spirit entrusted the full deposit of faith, and 'the gates of hell will not prevail against us". We have been living this game of throwning off epithets for the past 2,000 years.
Protestants call us ‘the whore of Babylon", Papists, or as Luther will say, ‘papist asses’. I throw your perjorative term "Roman Communion’ in here with the rest.
I don’t expect non-Catholics to do anything, or believe anything we believe. Who knows the totality and breath of what they believe. One heresy is as good as another. One thousand, 2,000 or 3,000 sects - it’s all the same to me. You do us no favors as a distant, invalid cousin to us to pick and to choose what you want from the buffet, as though you were in some NY deli.
It is the Church. Credo in unam, sanctam, catholicam Ecclesiam. Protestants continue to cry, “Non Serviam”.
peace,
mgrfin
Now that is an example of the tu quoque fallacy (as well as guilt by association). Maybe we are both snobs.That’s a good one. A high church Anglican calling me a snob.
peace,
mgrfin
Again, my point is simply that one does not have to be a famous theologian to try to come up with clear ways of communicating theologically. I do have a Ph.D. in church history, for what that’s worth, but I’m certainly rather small fry.
Edwin
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mgrfin
Guest
I am relieved to hear that you are ‘rather small fry’ A fortiori, you have no right to give us a label that Catholics would despise.Again, my point is simply that one does not have to be a famous theologian to try to come up with clear ways of communicating theologically. I do have a Ph.D. in church history, for what that’s worth, but I’m certainly rather small fry.
Edwin
My humble roots are like those of the Apostles - my forebears were simple fishermen. We gave us potato farming in 1848, when the English tried to starve us out.
Everyone smiles when you call high church anglicans snobs, like we have all heard that before…
mgrfin
C
Contarini
Guest
I have a right to use clear language–every human being has that right. I am not sure where you are going with this.I am relieved to hear that you are ‘rather small fry’ A fortiori, you have no right to give us a label that Catholics would despise.
My humble roots are like those of the Apostles - my forebears were simple fishermen. We gave us potato farming in 1848, when the English tried to starve us out.
Everyone smiles when you call high church anglicans snobs, like we have all heard that before…
mgrfin
Edwin
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mgrfin
Guest
Where am I going with this? I am going to where we have been. That we are entitled to our name, to be known as we know ourselves, to resist perjorative, protestantizing epithets.I have a right to use clear language–every human being has that right. I am not sure where you are going with this.
Edwin
peace.
mgrfin
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mgrfin
Guest
Gilbert,I’m not sure Edwin would classify himself as particularly high church.
But high church = snobs, in your experience?
GKC
You are also an Anglican. You also have a dog in this fight.
peace,
mgrfin
F
FatBoy
Guest
Man! You need to relax. We understand that you don’t want to be called part of the “Roman Communion”. He obviously was not trying to be a jerk. He was trying to be friendly. Give him a break and try to show some Christ like charity.Where am I going with this? I am going to where we have been. That we are entitled to our name, to be known as we know ourselves, to resist perjorative, protestantizing epithets.
peace.
mgrfin
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mgrfin
Guest
I am relaxed. I don’t want Catholics to be called “Roman Communion”. I guess that is clear now after I protested, which I have every right to do.Man! You need to relax. We understand that you don’t want to be called part of the “Roman Communion”. He obviously was not trying to be a jerk. He was trying to be friendly. Give him a break and try to show some Christ like charity.
Edwin knows I have Christ-like charity.
peace.
mgrfin
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GKC
Guest
Yep. But I don’t have a snob in this fight. Nor does, IMO, Edwin.Gilbert,
You are also an Anglican. You also have a dog in this fight.
peace,
mgrfin
BW, Edwin revels in the term “protestant”. I don’t. Might I expect that to be honored, according to these principles of nomenclature?
(N. B. It doesn’t matter a lot to me, either way.)
Pax, frater
GKC
terminally irenic Anglican
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