The protestant obsession with "the first Christians"

[Contarini]

Given the absolute treacle which passes for “music ministry” in most Protestant churches today (can you say “praise band”—no, please don’t), you may need to walk that back, Edwin. Anyone who joins a Protestant denomination for the music (I’ll allow a Pentecostal exception where gospel choirs are the choice) is as ignorant of music as theology.

Well, you are ignorant of the particular Protestant traditions I am familiar with.

It’s a long fall from Mozart and (Lutheran) J.S. Bach, isn’t it?

I have heard both Mozart and Bach in Anglican churches. We are far more likely to get that kind of music in Anglicanism than in Catholicism.

The tradition in which I grew up did not have Mozart and Bach, but we had Wesley and 19th-century gospel songs (not black gospel, which is probably what you are thinking of–ours were more saccharine and sentimental, but still quite lovely sometimes). The hymn-writing tradition that I’m thinking of is primarily that of the 18th and early 19th centuries. I mention “Amazing Grace” because it is one of the few hymns from this tradition that Catholics sometimes sing (to the consternation of many of the folks on this forum).

I have no need to “walk” anything “back.” Perhaps you should not assume that you know more about where I am coming from than I do.

I don’t really know which I dislike worse–Protestant praise bands or Catholic “reformed folk” or whatever you call it. Both have their good moments, and both are generally awful, but in somewhat different ways (the Catholic ones do have more interesting words but are much less singable and more likely to be explicitly directed against traditional Christian attitudes and beliefs).

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Maybe Catholics in East Tennessee do a lot more “muttering” than they do on the West Coast. I don’t know any Catholics who have an opinion on “Amazing Grace”, theological or otherwise…

I have almost no experience of Catholics in East Tennessee–I started exploring Catholicism seriously after going to grad school at Duke. The “mutterings” I had in mind have come either from the conservatives within the Duke undergrad Catholic student fellowship or from the people on this and similar Internet forums. Given that I am, by and large, sympathetic with the conservative critique of contemporary Catholic liturgical music, I may give these mutterings more weight than they deserve (and certainly some converts, like Peter Kreeft, have spoken out in favor of a more generous adaptation of Protestant hymns).

The single thing about Catholic adaptation of Protestant hymns that annoys me most is the butchering of “Love Divine, All Loves Excelling” not for theological reasons but in order to eliminate any use of archaic language ('thee/thou/thy/thine").

Edwin

 

[rr1213]

Given the absolute treacle which passes for “music ministry” in most Protestant churches today (can you say “praise band”—no, please don’t), you may need to walk that back, Edwin. Anyone who joins a Protestant denomination for the music (I’ll allow a Pentecostal exception where gospel choirs are the choice) is as ignorant of music as theology.

It’s a long fall from Mozart and (Lutheran) J.S. Bach, isn’t it?

Coming from the Methodist and Episcopal Churches, both of which have a very strong tradition of good music, I’d differ strongly with you on this assertion.

Also, to be quite frank, none of the Catholic Churches I’ve attended (a small sample I’ll admit) had music programs even close to what I’m used to. Apart from the choice of music, there seems to be a reluctance on the part of Catholics to actually participate in the hymns. By way of example, the Episcopal parish of which I used to be a member (sang in the choir for 18 years there) would average, maybe, 120 persons in the pews. The most participatory Catholic parish I’ve seen from a music standpoint would have over 500 persons at Mass (not counting the other masses) and you would think from the singing that there were less people than at the Episcopal Church.

Is my experience typical? I don’t know, but I’ve also read plenty of posts in these forums about the generally poor music at Catholic Masses in the USA and the lack of participation in the hymns. Plenty of people have posted that “Catholics don’t sing” and it does seem to be foreign to your tradition.

 

[rr1213]

I have almost no experience of Catholics in East Tennessee–I started exploring Catholicism seriously after going to grad school at Duke.

I thought you went to school in East Tennessee…?

 

[Contarini]

I thought you went to school in East Tennessee…?

I went to college there, not grad school. I lived in Tennessee for 13 years. There are almost no Catholics in the northeastern corner of Tennessee, although I did meet a Catholic kid at a 4-H public speaking context when I was 12 (and this was one of a few conversations with Catholics I had growing up that helped break down my prejudices a little).

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

Well, you are ignorant of the particular Protestant traditions I am familiar with.

Really? And you know this because…?

I have heard both Mozart and Bach in Anglican churches. We are far more likely to get that kind of music in Anglicanism than in Catholicism.

Show me the numbers. There’s more Bach and Mozart in my parish than we had in the Episcopal, Methodist, and Presbyterian services I’ve attended regularly; and forget the other Protestant denominations where they are never heard at all. Catholics have cantors and sing the Psalms each Mass as well.

The tradition in which I grew up did not have Mozart and Bach, but we had Wesley and 19th-century gospel songs (not black gospel, which is probably what you are thinking of–ours were more saccharine and sentimental, but still quite lovely sometimes). The hymn-writing tradition that I’m thinking of is primarily that of the 18th and early 19th centuries. I mention “Amazing Grace” because it is one of the few hymns from this tradition that Catholics sometimes sing (to the consternation of many of the folks on this forum).

Your mindreader is broken. I was thinking of gospel in the broader sense; I don’t find Wesley’s hymns saccharine myself, although less exalting than Bach or chant.

I have no need to “walk” anything “back.” Perhaps you should not assume that you know more about where I am coming from than I do.

Edwin, will you EVER remove the log from your own eye FIRST? Look at what you say above. You continually do that which you complain about.

I was an Episcopalian, you know. I’m familiar with those Protestant liturgies which refrain from musical treacle; unfortunately, they are a minority of Protestantism. Flat fact.

I don’t really know which I dislike worse–Protestant praise bands or Catholic “reformed folk” or whatever you call it. Both have their good moments, and both are generally awful, but in somewhat different ways (the Catholic ones do have more interesting words but are much less singable and more likely to be explicitly directed against traditional Christian attitudes and beliefs).

Edwin

Couldn’t tell you about “reformed folk” as I’ve never heard it in a Catholic Mass. Your last assertion could use some evidence, though.

Catholics are at a bit of a disadvantage in terms of lyrical works in that we are a global church and act like it. In my parish, for example, a significant portion of our liturgical music is turned over to our Montagnard choir, as we have a significant number of Montagnards in the pews. Of course, Catholic vocal works in Latin are simply amazing, which is why chant CDs remain popular.

 

[Teflon93]

Coming from the Methodist and Episcopal Churches, both of which have a very strong tradition of good music, I’d differ strongly with you on this assertion.

Also, to be quite frank, none of the Catholic Churches I’ve attended (a small sample I’ll admit) had music programs even close to what I’m used to. Apart from the choice of music, there seems to be a reluctance on the part of Catholics to actually participate in the hymns. By way of example, the Episcopal parish of which I used to be a member (sang in the choir for 18 years there) would average, maybe, 120 persons in the pews. The most participatory Catholic parish I’ve seen from a music standpoint would have over 500 persons at Mass (not counting the other masses) and you would think from the singing that there were less people than at the Episcopal Church.

Is my experience typical? I don’t know, but I’ve also read plenty of posts in these forums about the generally poor music at Catholic Masses in the USA and the lack of participation in the hymns. Plenty of people have posted that “Catholics don’t sing” and it does seem to be foreign to your tradition.

Oh, nonsense.

Typical response whenever someone criticizes an aspect of Protestantism—“You’re wrong—MY branch doesn’t do that!”

Unfortunately, the Episcopal Church is dying and the Methodist Church is limping along. The most vibrant parts of Protestantism do tend to feature that hideous “praise band” stuff—I used to go to Rick Warren’s megachurch in Lake Forest, CA and that’s a prominent feature (although at least they get folks who can play their instruments).

If you think the majority of Protestants are hearing Bach, Handel, Beethoven, Mozart, or other great masters of religious music, you haven’t gotten out enough.

Catholic musical liturgy certainly has its problems, but the “praise band” phenomenon (and the sorry state of Christian music in general) is largely a Protestant phenomenon.

But not in YOUR church, right?

Right.

 

[Contarini]

Really? And you know this because…?

I was being charitable. Apparently you know quite well that the traditions I come from do not fit your description, but you chose an inaccurate generalization for polemical purposes. Sorry for putting the best construction on your misrepresentation.

Show me the numbers. There’s more Bach and Mozart in my parish than we had in the Episcopal, Methodist

Clearly you go to a very fortunate parish.

Your mindreader is broken. I was thinking of gospel in the broader sense; I don’t find Wesley’s hymns saccharine myself, although less exalting than Bach or chant.

I wasn’t talking about Wesley–I said Wesley and 19th-century gospel hymns. I was thinking of things like Fanny Crosby’s hymns or “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus”

But completely irrelevant to my post, which was speaking about my personal experience and not generalizing about Protestantism.

Couldn’t tell you about “reformed folk” as I’ve never heard it in a Catholic Mass. Your last assertion could use some evidence, though.

I may be using “reformed folk” incorrectly. I was talking about Marty Haugen (who is ironically not a Catholic, and is sometimes used in Episcopal and Methodist churches, admittedly), David Haas, the St. Louis Jesuits, etc.

It sounds as if you are in a very unusual Catholic parish. I have never been canonically resident in such a parish (in NJ I think I could have found one by traveling a few miles–at least Al Kimel attended one not far from me that apparently had lovely music; and in North Carolina I could get a Byzantine parish by driving about 45 minutes; but I refuse to parish-hop on theological principles).

In my parish, for example, a significant portion of our liturgical music is turned over to our Montagnard choir, as we have a significant number of Montagnards in the pews.

That would be great! Had I gone through with RCIA instead of dropping out in 1999, I planned to start attending the bilingual Spanish/English Mass, partly because the music was so much better. I think Thomas Day had a point in blaming the Irish for much of the bad music in Catholic churches in the U.S.

Edwin

 

[rr1213]

Unfortunately, the Episcopal Church is dying and the Methodist Church is limping along.

Never denied that, in fact I would agree. That has nothing to do with the musical tradition of these Churches though.

The most vibrant parts of Protestantism do tend to feature that hideous “praise band” stuff—

Probably correct. For example, the LCMS Church I now attend has two services on Sunday, a traditional service in which the music is quite good although often unfamiliar to me because of the large number of translated hymns from German and the Nordic languages. The second service is a “praise music” service. For obvious reasons, I generally attend the first service but my kids like the praise music service.

If you think the majority of Protestants are hearing Bach, Handel, Beethoven, Mozart, or other great masters of religious music, you haven’t gotten out enough.

I never said that. Instead, I emphasized the fine musical traditions of the Methodist and Episcopal Churches and noted that, in my experience, participatory hymn singing was something that Catholics generally do not embrace.

Catholic musical liturgy certainly has its problems, but the “praise band” phenomenon (and the sorry state of Christian music in general) is largely a Protestant phenomenon.

Not in my experience. There are also a significant number of Catholic Parishes that do that insipid touchy feely stuff also. Not everything–by far–is Gregorian Chant.

But not in YOUR church, right?

Addressed above already….

 

[Teflon93]

I was being charitable. Apparently you know quite well that the traditions I come from do not fit your description, but you chose an inaccurate generalization for polemical purposes. Sorry for putting the best construction on your misrepresentation.

Oh, come now. Do you really think I have polemical fish to fry by noting the awfulness of praise bands?

I was simply pointing out that anyone who seriously considers joining a Protestant church for the music really does need to think a bit given the widespread horror that is the “praise band”, especially since those Protestant traditions with excellent musical liturgy are by and large fading away. (Noting the Pentecostal exception).

I wasn’t talking about Wesley–I said Wesley and 19th-century gospel hymns. I was thinking of things like Fanny Crosby’s hymns or “Turn Your Eyes Upon Jesus”

Yes, and I wasn’t referring to the subset of gospel you referred to as “black gospel”, but rather the wider superset of gospel music. If I meant the latter, I’d make the distinction.

But completely irrelevant to my post, which was speaking about my personal experience and not generalizing about Protestantism.

Which was completely irrelevant to this thread. Log, eye.

I may be using “reformed folk” incorrectly. I was talking about Marty Haugen (who is ironically not a Catholic, and is sometimes used in Episcopal and Methodist churches, admittedly), David Haas, the St. Louis Jesuits, etc.

I don’t deny that reformed folk music exists, just that I have never heard it. The name alone leads me to believe it is probably quite awful, but having not heard it I can’t say.

It sounds as if you are in a very unusual Catholic parish. I have never been canonically resident in such a parish (in NJ I think I could have found one by traveling a few miles–at least Al Kimel attended one not far from me that apparently had lovely music; and in North Carolina I could get a Byzantine parish by driving about 45 minutes; but I refuse to parish-hop on theological principles).

That would be great! Had I gone through with RCIA instead of dropping out in 1999, I planned to start attending the bilingual Spanish/English Mass, partly because the music was so much better. I think Thomas Day had a point in blaming the Irish for much of the bad music in Catholic churches in the U.S.

Edwin

Yes, even here in the Bible Belt one can find considerable diversity among parishes. The Spanish language Masses are quite popular; I attended a Christmas vigil a couple of years ago in a Spanish Catholic parish and highly recommend it. A very joyful experience.

Well, I hope Thomas Day provided some evidence. I much prefer even bad Irish music to “praise band” music myself; hard to believe the Catholic Church got all the tone-deaf Irishmen given Dublin and southern Ireland’s musical culture.

 

[Teflon93]

I never said that. Instead, I emphasized the fine musical traditions of the Methodist and Episcopal Churches and noted that, in my experience, participatory hymn singing was something that Catholics generally do not embrace.

Having a fine musical tradition and having fine music at a service are not the same thing. You are comparing apples and oranges above by favorably remarking on the tradition of Episcopalian and Methodist while unfavorably upon the practices of Catholics. There is a difference.

And despite Wesley’s exhortation to sing lustily in the Methodist hymn book, I can assure you that in the Methodist (and Episcopalian) churches I’ve attended this has not been the case. There is a reason why the charismatic Protestants refer to Methodists and Episcopalians as “the frozen chosen”. If your church is different, you are blessed.

Not in my experience. There are also a significant number of Catholic Parishes that do that insipid touchy feely stuff also. Not everything–by far–is Gregorian Chant.

Certainly not. But since we were discussing hymns as written (tradition) rather than hyms as sung (practice), it seemed on point to mention that Catholics have a timeless musical tradition. I make no claims that we Catholics apply that tradition to Mass as often as we should, nor that when we really try hard we can somehow manage to be as treacly, insipid, and awful as the “praise band” services are.

Given how conscious we are of the presence of the Lord in Mass, however, shame prevents the worst musical abuses.

 

[Contarini]

Oh, come now. Do you really think I have polemical fish to fry by noting the awfulness of praise bands?

Why else would you have brought it up? Apparently you had an apologetic rather than a polemical purpose, given this statement:

I was simply pointing out that anyone who seriously considers joining a Protestant church for the music really does need to think a bit given the widespread horror that is the “praise band”,

Since I was not saying anything about “joining” a Protestant church, I fail to see how this was relevant. I think you were suffering from apologist’s trigger-finger here. You can’t change my own experience into something other than it is.

Furthermore, I was not talking about musical/liturgical quality so much as participatory hymn-singing as a form of piety. Currently I attend an Episcopal parish on Saturday evening, and the service has no music (apparently there was some attempt to make it a contemporary “praise” service before I moved to the area, and this has thankfully fizzled!), although one retired music professor in the parish wants to turn it into a Taize service, which I would enjoy (Taize chant is, in my opinion, unquestionably the best contemporary style of liturgical music). On Sunday I attend a Methodist church, where the music is by and large pretty bad (my Methodist-choir-director-and-music-teacher mother-in-law visited us and was appalled that we could go there). But we do get to sing the Methodist hymns, and since I serve as an alternate pianist (and was asked to preach last Sunday, and will be attending a committee on revitalizing worship this evening) I am in a position to help improve matters a bit (as is my wife, who unlike me can actually sing beautifully!). The point is not that we have sophisticated, beautiful music, but that people have a tradition of congregational hymn-singing that is an intrinsic part of their piety. This is also the piety in which I was nourished.

especially since those Protestant traditions with excellent musical liturgy are by and large fading away.

I expect that to be the case, and only hope that we can “fade” into Catholicism in such a way as to bring some of our traditions of piety and devotion with us.

Which was completely irrelevant to this thread. Log, eye.

First of all, what do logs and eyes have to do with it? (Yes, I know the Scriptural reference!) If my remark was irrelevant (which it essentially was), why not ignore it? It wasn’t an argument, simply a personal admission by way of qualifying my generalization about Protestants.

I don’t deny that reformed folk music exists, just that I have never heard it.

If you have never heard Haugen or Haas, then you have really had a weird experience as a Catholic convert. I’m very happy for you.

Furthermore, my point was not about relative musical quality but that I have never encountered in Catholicism a certain kind of hymn-singing piety. This piety has shaped who I am as a Christian. It is a positive thing that is not, as far as I can see, in any way incompatible with Catholicism. Yet I have not found it there. I have had Catholics stare at me with wide eyes when I talked about what hymns mean to me. I think most Catholics think that it’s what we Protestants have to make up for not having the Mass, and of course that may be true, just as Eucharistic Adoration and the Rosary may have been substitutes for frequent lay communion and the Liturgy of the Hours, respectively. But that doesn’t make those forms of piety obsolete. Same here.

Well, I hope Thomas Day provided some evidence. I much prefer even bad Irish music to “praise band” music myself; hard to believe the Catholic Church got all the tone-deaf Irishmen given Dublin and southern Ireland’s musical culture.

His point was that to most Irish people “music” was folk music, period. They didn’t have a tradition of sacred music, because of the centuries of persecution. I think he has it in for Irish folk music way too much. But the general point that American Catholicism takes a very low-key, unenthusiastic approach to worship, and that this predated Vatican II, is certainly true. And the “Irish hypothesis” seems at least somewhat plausible.

Edwin

 

[Teflon93]

Why else would you have brought it up? Apparently you had an apologetic rather than a polemical purpose, given this statement:

Wow, your radar needs some calibration!

You’re the one who raised the prospect that Catholic criticism of “Amazing Grace” on doctrinal grounds was a barrier to joining the Church. That is simply so laughable on its face that it really demanded a response. And I absolutely hate “praise band” music. So if I’m being polemical, I’m aiming at anybody who likes lousy music.

I think you were suffering from apologist’s trigger-finger here. You can’t change my own experience into something other than it is.

Oh, please. You raised the musical issue as a snarky aside. How you get an apologetics issue out of this is beyond me, although you are consistent in refusing to acknowledge the shortcomings of Protestantism even to the point of—the horror!—denying the inherent and obvious evil against music that is the “praise band”.

First of all, what do logs and eyes have to do with it? (Yes, I know the Scriptural reference!)

Edwin, as your Christian brother, I can tell you that you have a real blindspot when it comes to applying your own standards to yourself. I’m no believer in Scripture that interprets itself, but if your posts don’t qualify as self-refuting, I don’t know what does! If you’re going to complain about something someone says, don’t implicate yourself in the same practice a paragraph later.

To whit:

If you’re going to deem my response “irrelevant” and call foul for irrelevance, it really would help if this whole digression wasn’t the result of your irrelevant digression re: “Amazing Grace”.

If you have never heard Haugen or Haas, then you have really had a weird experience as a Catholic convert. I’m very happy for you.

Here’s another thing you might want to improve: you make assertions as to probability without fact or qualification. I’m pretty well-versed in Catholicism and in music and I haven’t heard of either of these folks. Now, do you really believe that the majority of Catholic converts would recognize these names? Do you truly believe that NOT recognizing them would be so rare as to qualify as “weird”?

You have a marked pattern of making a bold, unqualified assertion unsupported by evidence. Fine I suppose in polemical writing, but you say you’re not engaging in polemics.

Furthermore, my point was not about relative musical quality but that I have never encountered in Catholicism a certain kind of hymn-singing piety. This piety has shaped who I am as a Christian. It is a positive thing that is not, as far as I can see, in any way incompatible with Catholicism. Yet I have not found it there. I have had Catholics stare at me with wide eyes when I talked about what hymns mean to me. But that doesn’t make those forms of piety obsolete. Same here.

Now, see, here’s a classic case of strawman spaghetti-slinging.

Your original assertion was that Catholic doctrinal warnings regarding hymns like “Amazing Grace” make you less inclined toward Catholicism.

Now, there’s a whole jumble of other things thrown out, including our supposed lack of piety during singing of hymns.

If I were to attend your church, do you assert that I will find everyone solemnly singing hymns full-throatedly?

If you’re going to criticize Catholic practices on this basis, you had better be able to demonstrate your practices to be superior.

As noted earlier, tradition = apples, practice = oranges, we must compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. To do otherwise is to engage in sleight of hand.

His point was that to most Irish people “music” was folk music, period. They didn’t have a tradition of sacred music, because of the centuries of persecution. I think he has it in for Irish folk music way too much. But the general point that American Catholicism takes a very low-key, unenthusiastic approach to worship, and that this predated Vatican II, is certainly true. And the “Irish hypothesis” seems at least somewhat plausible.

Or maybe we’re just tired from all the kneeling and praying we do in our low-key, unenthusiastic way as we prepare to receive the Lord.

Do you think maybe more things “seem at least somewhat plausible” because you WANT to believe them?

I’ve been to Ireland, spent my honeymoon there in fact, and I don’t think the person you quote knows his history or his culture as well as you graciously allow him to claim.

Might want to start with the monastics.

 

[po18guy]

That’s nothing to do with it really. Unapproved visions such as Medjugorje and approved visions such as Fatima are both private revelations and no Catholic is ever obliged to believe any of them. And if a private revelation contains anything which is contrary to public revelation it obviously must be false, by definition. It develops always from existing revelation, using human reason. Who told you it’s not in scripture. Way back in Genesis God imposed the death penalty on Onan for his non-abortive contraception.
Which verses speak of Christ founding many churches?

AMEN!

 

[Contarini]

You’re the one who raised the prospect that Catholic criticism of “Amazing Grace” on doctrinal grounds was a barrier to joining the Church. That is simply so laughable on its face that it really demanded a response. And I absolutely hate “praise band” music. So if I’m being polemical, I’m aiming at anybody who likes lousy music.

But since “Amazing Grace” is not praise band music, your response had nothing to do with my post.

My point about “Amazing Grace” was that there is a body of hymns that carry much Protestant piety. They are the principal means by which those of us from a traditional evangelical/pietist background express our faith. Most of these hymns do not contradict Catholic doctrine–many of them actually express it quite well. And yet Catholics are only willing to use a very few, and when they do they do not seem to take much root in Catholicism and the more conservative Catholics grumble about them and apply a hermeneutic of suspicion to find doctrinal errors in them. Embracing the fullness of the faith means more than just having correct dogmas. It means finding room for every historic expression of Christian piety that is not fundamentally and necessarily heretical. This is something Catholics need to work on, if you really wish for Christian unity. That is all I am saying.

You did not and do not have a clue what I was talking about, or you would never have mentioned praise band music as any kind of rfutation of what I was saying.

Oh, please. You raised the musical issue as a snarky aside.

It wasn’t snarky. It was a personal statement about something in Protestantism that deeply matters to m.

How you get an apologetics issue out of this is beyond me,

I didn’t. You did.

although you are consistent in refusing to acknowledge the shortcomings of Protestantism

That has to be the weirdest and most obviously ridiculous thing anyone has ever said about me on the Internet.

even to the point of—the horror!—denying the inherent and obvious evil against music that is the “praise band”.

Huh? When did I say anything of the sort? I said that I don’t like praise band music (OK, I said that it had its moments, which it does, but I was not by and large disagreeing with your critique.) How on earth do we get from “Amazing Grace” to praise bands? It makes no sense at all.

Edwin, as your Christian brother, I can tell you that you have a real blindspot when it comes to applying your own standards to yourself. I’m no believer in Scripture that interprets itself, but if your posts don’t qualify as self-refuting, I don’t know what does!

Well, you obviously don’t know what does, because your responses to me have been characterized by nothing but misunderstanding and unnecessary rudeness from beginning to end.

I
If you’re going to deem my response “irrelevant” and call foul for irrelevance, it really would help if this whole digression wasn’t the result of your irrelevant digression re: “Amazing Grace”.

I made one comment. I was not making an argument, but a statement about my own personal position in contrast to Protestants who had more dogmatic differences with Catholicism. You chose to take this as some sort of attack on Catholicism, and none of your responses have had anything to do with what I said. I agree that my remark was irrelevant, and it wasn’t intended to be a response to the thread. You chose to respond to it, and if you were going to do so you might as well have responded to what I actually said.

 

[Contarini]

Here’s another thing you might want to improve: you make assertions as to probability without fact or qualification.

Because this is a discussion forum, and we are entitled to express our opinions based on personal experience.

I’m pretty well-versed in Catholicism and in music and I haven’t heard of either of these folks. Now, do you really believe that the majority of Catholic converts would recognize these names?

Absolutely. Don’t believe me. Ask around on this forum.

Do you truly believe that NOT recognizing them would be so rare as to qualify as “weird”?

Certainly. Don’t take my word for it.

You have a marked pattern of making a bold, unqualified assertion unsupported by evidence.

Apparently I have a marked pattern of knowing things that you do not know. That is certainly the case here.

Your original assertion was that Catholic doctrinal warnings regarding hymns like “Amazing Grace” make you less inclined toward Catholicism.

No, my assertion was that converting to Catholicism would mean giving up most of my heritage in terms of hymnody, with the bits I was allowed to hang on to being sniped at by Catholics who pride themselves on their orthodoxy.

Now, there’s a whole jumble of other things thrown out, including our supposed lack of piety during singing of hymns.

It’s not a jumble. You just don’t have a clue what I am talking about, because you don’t share my Wesleyan heritage. That’s fine by me. I am not talking about a “lack of piety during singing of hymns.” I am talking about hymns as an expression of piety–as a carrier of Tradition. They have a central role in evangelical Protestantism that they do not have in Catholicism. Are you really denying this? You’re just trying to pick a fight over something that isn’t really controversial. And with each post you make my point more clearly by your complete failure even to understand why hymns are important for someone coming from a traditional evangelical (particularly Wesleyan) background. I should have known from your initial response that you would never get the point. My main beef with praise bands is that they have largely killed this kind of hymn-singing piety within much of evangelicalism. It’s like someone saying that they don’t want to be Protestant because they couldn’t have the Latin Mass and a Protestant saying “so you are defending that horrible English Mass?”

As noted earlier, tradition = apples, practice = oranges, we must compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. To do otherwise is to engage in sleight of hand.

No, it is to assert something that would have been obvious to the early Church and is obvious to the Orthodox today (and, to be fair, also to many Catholics–just not to you, apparently), that practices are the carriers of tradition and cannot be neatly separated from it. Your statement above could not be more wrong, and is responsible for many of the problems in contemporary Catholicism.

Do you think maybe more things “seem at least somewhat plausible” because you WANT to believe them?

Of course. But that’s true for everyone, so to quote C. S. Lewis, “Let’s wash out all the wish business.” I am not the only person in the world to find Mr. Day’s thesis at least somewhat plausible.

Your truculent and patronizing tone makes this conversation a lot less pleasant than it could be. Please let’s have a civil conversation or no conversation at all.

In Christ,

Edwin

 

[mgrfin]

Edwin, will you EVER remove the log from your own eye FIRST? Look at what you say above. You continually do that which you complain about.

I was an Episcopalian, you know. I’m familiar with those Protestant liturgies which refrain from musical treacle; unfortunately, they are a minority of Protestantism. Flat fact.

Catholics are at a bit of a disadvantage in terms of lyrical works in that we are a global church and act like it. In my parish, for example, a significant portion of our liturgical music is turned over to our Montagnard choir, as we have a significant number of Montagnards in the pews. Of course, Catholic vocal works in Latin are simply amazing, which is why chant CDs remain popular.quote.

P.S. I messed up this post, sorry. Here is where I begin:
mgrfin

(Break in post, please)
There used to be a lot more Bach, and Beethoven, and Mozart in Catholic churches before the advent of Vatican 2.

Then we got an impulse to get ‘popular’ so we started a lot of ‘folk’ music interventions during the services. Guitars, etc., you know the routine.

I think Catholics are generally non-plussed about church music. They don’t want Lutheran music, like “A mighty fortess is our God”, or Gospel music you hear on radio or tv. We just don’t know what we really like that we feel is Protestant.

BTW, I’m learning a lot of ‘s’ words on this site. We had ‘snobbish’, then ‘sloppy’, and now ‘snarky’. A lot of ‘s’ words coming out of East Tennessee. We could have snooty, symbolic, then ‘snarcastic’, and ‘synical’. Anything else? “Treacle” - we never used that in Flatbush. That goes for ‘truculent’ and ‘patronizing’ too.

peace,
mgrfin

 

[Teflon93]

Your truculent and patronizing tone makes this conversation a lot less pleasant than it could be. Please let’s have a civil conversation or no conversation at all.

In Christ,

Edwin

Edwin, you simply are the least self-aware person I have ever interacted with—an amazing accomplishment!

Just reread your posts—you exhibit every behavior your criticize, only moreso.

It is truly a marvel, and I can only tip my hat to you for it, particularly the “call to civility”.

And just because I can’t resist, let me sum up the argument you have just made after many posts:

1. Catholics who won’t allow “Amazing Grace” to be played during Mass because it’s lyrics don’t match Catholic doctrine are wrong.
2. “Amazing Grace” and similar Wesleyan hymns have proven to be excellent vehicles for deepening your Protestant faith.

If you can’t see how the second proposition validates the first…

 

[Teflon93]

…and so, to answer the original question:

Protestants are obsessed with “the first Christians” because they lived in the golden age prior to praise bands.

 

[mgrfin]

Edwin, you simply are the least self-aware person I have ever interacted with—an amazing accomplishment!

Just reread your posts—you exhibit every behavior your criticize, only moreso.

It is truly a marvel, and I can only tip my hat to you for it, particularly the “call to civility”.

And just because I can’t resist, let me sum up the argument you have just made after many posts:

1. Catholics who won’t allow “Amazing Grace” to be played during Mass because it’s lyrics don’t match Catholic doctrine are wrong.
2. “Amazing Grace” and similar Wesleyan hymns have proven to be excellent vehicles for deepening your Protestant faith.

If you can’t see how the second proposition validates the first…

No disrespect to the eminent Doctor, but Edwin manages to take both sides of a position for fear of being wrong. I kind of wish he’d pick one, and run with it. It makes posting for the rest of us much easier.

peace,
mgrfin