The Queenship of Mary

[Mannyfit75]

The church definitely didn’t give birth to Jesus. Conversely Jesus gave birth to the church.
The woman could not be Mary because verse12:17 says she had other offspring and you know Mary didn’t have other children, right?

The Church didn’t. Mary did however.

Like the woman in the Rev 12:1, the woman gave birth to a male child who was taken up to heaven and to his throne. This child is Jesus. Therefore the woman can be identified as Mary.

The offspring are Christians. Believers in Christ. We are her spiritual children because of our baptism we are made siblings of Jesus Christ.

I know Mary didn’t have other offsprings. Jesus did however gave Mary to us at the foot at the cross. John as our representative. If you understand the symbolic and literal sense in Scripture, the woman is indeed Mary. I going in circle around here.

May I ask you a question, Daisy,
**
Who is the male child who will rule all nations with an iron rod?**

 

[DaisyD]

The Church didn’t.
May I ask you a question, Daisy,
**
Who is the male child who will rule all nations with an iron rod?**

Jesus

 

[Mannyfit75]

Jesus

Who gave birth to Jesus literally speaking?

 

[DaisyD]

Who gave birth to Jesus literally speaking?

Literally Mary gave birth to Jesus.
But Jesus created Mary in the first place. Jn1:1
Rev12:1 is refering to Israel.
Verse 14 refers to Israel going into the wilderness for 3 1/2 yrs during the tribulation. See Zech 14:5.

 

[Church_Militant]

The church definitely didn’t give birth to Jesus. Conversely Jesus gave birth to the church.

The woman could not be Mary because verse12:17 says she had other offspring and you know Mary didn’t have other children, right?Can you show me a scripture that actually says that Jesus gave birth to church?

Better actually read that verse 17 again. “…the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.” and since this refers to the woman who gave birth to Jesus, that indicates that the Catholic position is easily more consistent with the Word of God than your own.

However Mary has nothing to do with the trinity.

Got any real Catholic documentation that says that we Catholics believe that? I don’t think so since it’s not. makes another nice “star man” for you to beat up on though doesn’t it?

There is no reason for me to worship her.

Please by all means show me where we are taught that we should adore the Blessed Virgin?

What? Can’t produce it? Didn’t think so, since that’s not a Catholic teaching either. Saint Worship?

I do called her blessed though.

Good for you! That fulfills prophecy!

 

[Mannyfit75]

Literally Mary gave birth to Jesus.

She did therefore the woman in Revelation 12:1 is Mary.

But Jesus created Mary in the first place. Jn1:1

Jesus did not became flesh yet. It is Mary’s flesh that Jesus became man.

Rev12:1 is refering to Israel.
Verse 14 refers to Israel going into the wilderness for 3 1/2 yrs during the tribulation. See Zech 14:5.

Nope, you just made an illogical conclusion. You say that the male child is Jesus. Yet you deny that the woman is not Mary. Where is your logic? It’s illogical.

 

[DaisyD]

Can you show me a scripture that actually says that Jesus gave birth to church?

Matt16:18

 

[Church_Militant]

Literally Mary gave birth to Jesus.

Yep

But Jesus created Mary in the first place. Jn1:1

So? Where has anything that we have stated said otherwise? You’re arguing something that we don’t even believe. You’re good with those straw men…

Rev12:1 is refering to Israel.

In your interpretation and not even all Christians believe this. You still have not acknowledged that any given verse and prophecy can have more than a single meaning, application, or fulfillment.

Verse 14 refers to Israel going into the wilderness for 3 1/2 yrs during the tribulation. See Zech 14:5.

A dispensationalist interpretation that draws conclusions that are not stated in the passage and therefore qualifies as a teaching of men.

 

[Church_Militant]

Church Militant;2622801:

Can you show me a scripture that actually says that Jesus gave birth to church?

Matt16:18

Great…Let’s look at that verse then. It happens to be one of my very favorites.

[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

See anything there that says that Our Lord birthed His church?

I sure don’t.

 

[DaisyD]

She did therefore the woman in Revelation 12:1 is Mary.

Jesus did not became flesh yet. It is Mary’s flesh that Jesus became man.

Nope, you just made an illogical conclusion. You say that the male child is Jesus. Yet you deny that the woman is not Mary. Where is your logic? It’s illogical.

All through the OT it states the Messiah will come from the nation of Israel.

 

[Mannyfit75]

All through the OT it states the Messiah will come from the nation of Israel.

But Israel did not gave birth to Jesus. Mary did.

Let me quote Issiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear* a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.*

Then let me quote Matthew 1:22-23

All this took place to fulfil what the Lord had spoken by the prophet: 23* “Behold, a virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel” (which means, God with us).

The Virgin is Mary. The woman in Revelation gave birth to male child destined to rule all nations with an iron rod. We both admit that this child is Jesus, and Mary did gave birth to Jesus, but Israel.

 

[DaisyD]

DaisyD;2622849:

Great…Let’s look at that verse then. It happens to be one of my very favorites.

[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church

, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

See anything there that says that Our Lord birthed His church?

I sure don’t.

Are you arguing semantics.
Jesus built the church upon the rock.
He made the church.
The church didn’t make Him.
I think it can go without saying the the church was not born in the traditional way a baby is born from it’s mother(through the birth canal).
I expect a higher level of debate from you. CM

 

[Church_Militant]

Are you arguing semantics.

Not at all. But when you say that a passage or verse says something then it certainly should say that, otherwise all we are getting is your all too fallible interpretation of it, which in this case is plainly wrong.

Jesus built the church upon the rock

.I can rest my case now…

He made the church.
The church didn’t make Him.

If this was some sort of Catholic teaching (the idea that the church made Christ? ) then it would be relevant, but since it’s not it is an irrelevant straw man argument.

I think it can go without saying the the church was not born in the traditional way a baby is born from it’s mother(through the birth canal).

I don’t see a basis for this from any passage that you have so far cited.

Christ built His church. I can think of no verse or passage that implies otherwise.

I expect a higher level of debate from you. CM

And I you…but this is drivel.

If you wish to discuss or debate Catholic beliefs, then I expect you to produce statements relevant to authentic Catholic beliefs and not some baseless propaganda from some anti-Catholic sources as you have so far.

Bring facts…and be refuted. I am in no way fearful of being proved wrong.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Not at all. But when you say that a passage or verse says something then it certainly should say that, otherwise all we are getting is your all too fallible interpretation of it, which in this case is plainly wrong.
I can rest my case now…If this was some sort of Catholic teaching (the idea that the church made Christ? ) then it would be relevant, but since it’s not it is an irrelevant straw man argument.I don’t see a basis for this from any passage that you have so far cited.

Christ built His church. I can think of no verse or passage that implies otherwise.And I you…but this is drivel.

If you wish to discuss or debate Catholic beliefs, then I expect you to produce statements relevant to authentic Catholic beliefs and not some baseless propaganda from some anti-Catholic sources as you have so far.

Bring facts…and be refuted. I am in no way fearful of being proved wrong.

Well said CM.

 

[Church_Militant]

Well said CM.

:blushing: I am an unworthy servant; I have only done my duty.
(Luke 17:10)

 

[DaisyD]

Not at all. But when you say that a passage or verse says something then it certainly should say that, otherwise all we are getting is your all too fallible interpretation of it, which in this case is plainly wrong.
I can rest my case now…If this was some sort of Catholic teaching (the idea that the church made Christ? ) then it would be relevant, but since it’s not it is an irrelevant straw man argument.I don’t see a basis for this from any passage that you have so far cited.

Christ built His church. I can think of no verse or passage that implies otherwise.And I you…but this is drivel.

If you wish to discuss or debate Catholic beliefs, then I expect you to produce statements relevant to authentic Catholic beliefs and not some baseless propaganda from some anti-Catholic sources as you have so far.

Bring facts…and be refuted. I am in no way fearful of being proved wrong.

Manny said rev12 could be refering to the church. My comment that the church was made by Jesus was refuting his statement. That’s all. Later Gotta go be back in a few hours.

 

[Goth_Catholic]

Mary is indeed the wife of God. Because she is the spouse of the Holy Spirt.

“Through the rosary and the scapular, I shall save the world.” Our Lady to St. Dominic

Salve Regina!

 

[Mannyfit75]

Manny said rev12 could be refering to the church. My comment that the church was made by Jesus was refuting his statement. That’s all. Later Gotta go be back in a few hours.

I did say could be in the Symbollic meaning, but I firmly believe that the woman is Mary. I always believe that.

 

[mozier]

My God, what have I done???

Daisy, you will never win on this board. If you believed as we believed regarding the Virgin Mary, then you wouldn’t be the Protestant that you are.

As I said in my original post, if Jesus is King of Kings, then Mary is the Queen Mother. She is not the same being as the pagan Queen of Heaven mentioned in Jeremiah.

Admit defeat, Daisy, and move on.

 

[Church_Militant]

Mary is indeed the wife of God. Because she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit.

“Through the rosary and the scapular, I shall save the world.” Our Lady to St. Dominic

Salve Regina!

Try to stay in the discussion G_C.

I’m sorry but a non-binding approved private revelation is not a relevant proof to an apologetic discussion like this, since Catholics are not bound to believe it which means neither is anyone else.

I may accept it or reject it, but it is irrelevant to apologetic discussion for the reasons that I have stated above.

Sorry, I realize that your heart’s in the right place.