The question of Hell (or a Hell of a question)

[Arrow8]

I’ve been listening to some recent debates of Christians vs. atheists. It seems that the Christian debater is usually very good at proving that the earth had a beginning and that there is objective moral truth—both are important concepts to bolster the Christian argument. The greatest stumbling block though appears to revolve around suffering.

While temporal suffering is difficult enough for the Christian to explain, the concept of eternal torment is far more difficult. I know the argument that those who are in Hell have chosen Hell. Here is where I struggle though. And keep in mind that when I ask this question, I am coming at it from a perspective of a faithful Catholic and father of six children.

If heaven is a place of joy and free of suffering, how could any parent be in heaven if any of his children are in Hell? Wouldn’t that parent have eternal suffering?

 

[vindicated]

There is a book by C.S. Lewis called “the problem of pain”
You might find it helpful.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Impossible. Heaven is only full of saints. Want to know how strong their love of God is ?

Matthew 10:37
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me;

We love God with our whole “heart, mind and strength”…and in doing so, we love our spouse, our children etc etc.

In the end it is ONLY between us and God.

Lastly, keep in mind. NO ONE in Hell is suprised they are there! They chose where they are. Do you know why hell exists??? Like all of God’s moves…it exists because of His mercy. To FORCE someone to live and be united to you for all eternity would be more of a hell than hell if you didn’t want to be with that person.

When we die, we will understand all this more and see much more clearly. Right now your comment (and I may say the same worry as you about my son…) comes from feelings. Feelings are not what will follow us into eternity…it’s the will that lasts. If our wills are united to God…which is what is necessary since Heaven is all about us being united with Him completely…than we will be happy with whatever end God permits.

He loves your children more than you do! Just remember that!

God bless

 

[tonyrey]

Your Hell of a question needs a Heaven of an answer.

1. Our most precious gift is our freedom without which we would be incapable of love.
2. No one would opt for Hell if it had no compensations: absolute independence.
3. There is plenty of evidence that our vices incur their own punishment.
4. Selfishness is ultimately self-destructive because it leads to isolation from others…

 

[wanabesaint]

We admit that God is beyound our comprehension, and hell is to see and come to “experience” God, and then to be seperated for ever from God,that is Hell…

if you do not believe in hell and the reality of, and live to that, you will when you get to hell.
our obligation to children, all children is far more tremendous than we want to admit. for our examples and actions are the teachers of children, and setting wrong examples are sins that canbe never forgiven, condemn us to hell…
to commit sins sets an example for children to follow, to not repent of them sets an example of that to children, and that then both comdenms them to hell and us for teaching sin to them.

that reasoning away sin, rather than recognizing the hoares of sin, that condemn not only US to hell, but also our children and those around us…

to be seperated from God for eternity is hell,

denial of Hell is what drives many from the church, is the theory.
denial of Gods Love is Hell…

 

[NeedImprovement]

. . .
If heaven is a place of joy and free of suffering, how could any parent be in heaven if any of his children are in Hell? Wouldn’t that parent have eternal suffering?

. . . . . . A question which could also spur one on to wonder how God could ever be happy in Heaven since each and every one of us is His child.

Our Blessed Lord’s words as recorded in the diary of St. Faustina , and used as a meditation for the First Day of the Novena to the Divine Mercy

"Today bring to Me all mankind, especially all sinners,and immerse them in the ocean of My mercy. In this way you will console Me in the bitter grief into which the loss of souls plunges Me."

Of course, the more we remove God from the picture , particularly regarding suffering , the more clouded our lens becomes - not such a great thing since we don’t even see clearly in the first instance:

1 Corinthians 13:9-12

For we know partially and we prophesy partially,

but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.

When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.

At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.

Any parent concerned about the spiritual well-being of their children - and particularly its personal eschatological ramifications, would be hard-pressed to discover better counsel than that exemplified by that dear, loving mother St. Monica . who put her love into action as she prayed and wept relentlessly for her son Augustine :

. . . She continually fasted, prayed, and wept on his behalf. She implored the local bishop for help in winning him over, and he counseled her to be patient, saying, “God’s time will come.” Monica persisted in importuning him, and the bishop uttered the words which have often been quoted: “Go now, I beg you; it is not possible that the son of so many tears should perish.”

ewtn.com/library/mary/monica.htm

. . . The greatest stumbling block though appears to revolve around suffering. . .
While temporal suffering is difficult enough for the Christian to explain, the concept of eternal torment is far more difficult.

Suffering isn’t a stumbling block although part of it remains a mystery. Still, to use that same term, a suffering God would present a “stumbling block” so far beyond the scope of the concept quoted directly above.

From: MODERN CATHOLIC DICTIONARY , Father John Hardon, S.J.

SUFFERING.
The disagreeable experience of soul that comes with the presence of evil or the privation of some good. Although commonly synonymous with pain, suffering is rather the reaction to pain, and in this sense suffering is a decisive factor in Christian spirituality. Absolutely speaking, suffering is possible because we are creatures, but in the present order of Providence suffering is the result of sin having entered the world. Its purpose, however, is not only to expiate wrongdoing, but to enable the believer to offer God a sacrifice of praise of his divine right over creatures, to unite oneself with Christ in his sufferings as an expression of love, and in the process to become more like Christ, who, having joy set before him, chose the Cross, and thus “to make up all that has still to be undergone by Christ for the sake of His body, the Church” (I Colossians 1:24). (Etym. Latin sufferre, to sustain, to bear up: sub-, up from under + ferre, to bear.)

Link to Modern Catholic Dictionary

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’ve been listening to some recent debates of Christians vs. atheists. It seems that the Christian debater is usually very good at proving that the earth had a beginning and that there is objective moral truth—both are important concepts to bolster the Christian argument. The greatest stumbling block though appears to revolve around suffering.

While temporal suffering is difficult enough for the Christian to explain, the concept of eternal torment is far more difficult. I know the argument that those who are in Hell have chosen Hell. Here is where I struggle though. And keep in mind that when I ask this question, I am coming at it from a perspective of a faithful Catholic and father of six children.

If heaven is a place of joy and free of suffering, how could any parent be in heaven if any of his children are in Hell? Wouldn’t that parent have eternal suffering?

Not having kids of my own, I’m probably not the best person to attempt an answer. Incidentally CS Lewis didn’t have kids either, although he did gain a couple of step-sons due to his marriage to Joy Davidson.

I do remember a story my old pastor told about a father who lost a wayward son. He was a distinguished looking man apparently, and the pastor just happened to be passing by as the father looked at his son lying in state.

The father stood there for a few minutes gazing at his son. Then the pastor heard him say something along the lines of, “Well, Son, the Lord knows I tried to warn you, but you either couldn’t, or wouldn’t, listen.”

I think we’ll see the justice of it. And I also think that the power of the beatific vision will be so overpowering that it will claim all our attention.

Not an easy question to answer. I really don’t think I know the answer. I’ve got good reason to believe my own father is in hell, but then we weren’t very close to put it mildly. I suppose if I saw him now, I might feel quite sorry for him, but I can also say that if he wasn’t prepared to change, the very last thing I’d want would be his negative, cruel, stupid, bad tempered, vindictive presence bugging me for eternity in heaven.

I put up with enough of it for about 20 years or more, and it left me with a lifetime of scars in some ways. I have no desire to endure something like that for eternity. If he wants to retain his damnable ways, then fine. But I don’t want to be around him for eternity if that’s his choice. He can spend it with others of like mind as far as I’m concerned.

 

[fred_conty]

Mike you said, “Lastly, keep in mind. NO ONE in Hell is suprised they are there!”
St. Faustina said, “Most of the souls there are those who disbelieved that there is a hell.”

I know that you meant that they wouldn’t be suprised since they made all their own choices.

But you know, I think they really are suprised, especially when they discounted believing in God on earth.

I can honestly say that if Jesus had not treated me with his kindness, I would really fear what I might be doing right now without his guidance. I would have been one of those that St. Faustina is talking about, who disbelieved.

Thank goodness that isn’t the case, and not to my credit.

Just some thoughts.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Hi fred

I work in a hospital in detroit and I see lots of servere drunks with histories, drug addicts, street women etc etc etc…not saying they’re all damned or anything like that… but I do think there’s something to say in how we live our lives and the degree we order our lives…we begin to live our Hell out here on earth!

Now what Faustina said was her opinion that she was able to give to the degree she was allowed to “see” … I’m sticking with mine. I…and this is my humble opinion now… I have a feeling…that it’s not too much of a transition when someone who chose hell is heading there. Because by their choice, they’ve already accepted hells precepts and mottos and had a taste of that lifestyle here on earth.

 

[fred_conty]

Mike, you have a good point.

 

[MichaelHowling]

Well thanks.

But I still woudn’t discredit that lots of people in the world don’t believe of the presence of hell…like you and sister faustina say. I really agree with that! That’s for sure…

But, i think when they do come to it…in a sense…they feel at home.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

If it’s satisfactory to God that we choose to go to hell (God is after all our best parent) I don’t see how we can be unhappy with God’s judgment. Remember, our stae in heaven will be purified against all unhappiness.

 

[CandideWest]

Hi Arrow,

I’ve been listening to some recent debates of Christians vs. atheists. It seems that the Christian debater is usually very good at proving that the earth had a beginning and that there is objective moral truth—both are important concepts to bolster the Christian argument. The greatest stumbling block though appears to revolve around suffering.

Interesting, I’m not sure why an atheist would disagree regarding the earth having a beginning. Seems an odd argument.

With regards to the objective moral truth bit, I’ve not seen this argued successfully yet, but I know it’s a big area in apologetics.

While temporal suffering is difficult enough for the Christian to explain, the concept of eternal torment is far more difficult. I know the argument that those who are in Hell have chosen Hell. Here is where I struggle though. And keep in mind that when I ask this question, I am coming at it from a perspective of a faithful Catholic and father of six children.

If heaven is a place of joy and free of suffering, how could any parent be in heaven if any of his children are in Hell? Wouldn’t that parent have eternal suffering?

I agree, this seems to be a major problem, the only solutions I can come up with are:

• on entry into heaven you are stripped of all empathy. So you would be there (metaphorically) sitting on a cloud strumming your harp happy as a clam, secure in the certain knowledge that your children and other loved ones are screaming in eternal torment.
• the knowledge of the fate of your loved ones is hidden from you, or perhaps you are given reason to believe that they are in heaven too, even though they are not.
• hell doesn’t exist
• hell is actually not a bad place to be (either simple non-existence or otherwise a fairly neutral experience).

That’s all I could come up with anyway.

 

[Paddy_Walker]

…
I agree, this seems to be a major problem, the only solutions I can come up with are:

• on entry into heaven you are stripped of all empathy. So you would be there (metaphorically) sitting on a cloud strumming your harp happy as a clam, secure in the certain knowledge that your children and other loved ones are screaming in eternal torment.

…

technically empathy only works on earth, where there is suffering. in heaven there is no suffering, so empathy passes away. the reason you do not worry about hell when you are in heaven is that you realize and know that everything is in the good hands of God, even hell.

 

[jonathan_hili]

A good question, Arrow, with some good answers by everyone and I only want to add a couple of points. Firstly, though, to use a rather mundane example, I guess the scenario might be like a father inside a house, warming himself by the fire, while outside his son or daughter is standing in the rain, shivering and refusing to come inside into the comfort, warmth and joy because he or she prefers it outside. Now, what must the father feel? It is difficult to imagine here in our earthly lives how, at best, he could feel anything but pity for his child and reluctantly accept his or her decision, even if he is sitting in front of the beautiful fire. Will this be what it’s like in Heaven, a kind of grudging acceptance of the other person’s fate, ignoring their suffering while singing the praises of God? I don’t think so for a few reasons.

(i) Those who are blessed to be in God’s presence in Heaven will not only be joyous but will see that justice is done. From the heavenly perspective, what is happening to a soul in Hell is not only just but good and right. This might sound barbaric but that is because we don’t really understand the magnitude of sin or the immense crime being committed by saying “No” to God, who is the source of all life. As an analogy, imagine you lived two thousand years ago in a culture where women were treated solely as property. A man could brutally rape or beat a woman and get off with a small fine, if anything at all. Today, however, we would find such a punishment inadequate and demand he is imprisoned for a long period of time. Well, this I think is the case with sinning against God. We don’t yet realise because of our fallen natures the gravity of what we are doing - I mean, just look at the cross! Once we do, I believe, we will praise God for consigning some souls to Hell.

(ii) Heaven and Hell are eternally present realities - the joy and suffering felt happen in the continued instant. Saddness over such a scenario only happens over time, when you imagine a potential change in feeling or action. Moreover, anyone who really wants God will be with God because the Lord will never turn them away. Therefore, those in Hell are constantly saying “No” to God in the present reality. Their condition in Hell, then, is a just consequence of their eternally present action. To take my example from above, your son and daughter are actually locked outside in the rain because they lost their keys, even though you told them time and time again not to lose them (they’ve done this a number of times before, you see). Well, will you get up and open the door? Perhaps in a while, but you’ll leave them out in the rain, in the cold, as a just punishment for what they’ve done, so that they might not learn to do it in the future. Now, Hell is something like that, only the person will never learn or change anything because of a hardened will, because the rejection of God is totally present, and thus your reaction of justice towards them is also totally present.

(iii) Finally, and this is a bit of speculation on my part, the soul in Hell will probably have lost much of that which made it loveable, which made it a human person. After all, does not the Lord say that Hell was made for the devil and his angels, and consequently not for mankind? Now, we love our children for many reasons: we have grown attached to them over time, seen them grow up, and perhaps something of their character is beloved to us. But we do not love them just because they are our children. If I had a son, abandoned him when he was a baby, and met him again thirty years later, I certainly wouldn’t love him in any real sense because I don’t know him. Perhaps that is how we will feel towards those in Hell. Jesus said - again in that same chapter from Matthew 25 - “I do not know you” to those rejected from the Kingdom. In a sense, I think, we will no longer know what we loved about those in Hell, and therefore might not feel sad in the same way.

Thanks for putting up with the rambling

And let’s hope, pray and live well so that none of us, nor our children, will ever reject God.

God bless!

Jonathan

 

[HelenRose]

I’ve been listening to some recent debates of Christians vs. atheists. It seems that the Christian debater is usually very good at proving that the earth had a beginning and that there is objective moral truth—both are important concepts to bolster the Christian argument. The greatest stumbling block though appears to revolve around suffering.

While temporal suffering is difficult enough for the Christian to explain, the concept of eternal torment is far more difficult. I know the argument that those who are in Hell have chosen Hell. Here is where I struggle though. And keep in mind that when I ask this question, I am coming at it from a perspective of a faithful Catholic and father of six children.

If heaven is a place of joy and free of suffering, how could any parent be in heaven if any of his children are in Hell? Wouldn’t that parent have eternal suffering?

I can not come up with an answer to this because it weighs on my mind to. My recourse has been to simply trust God and trust my children. (I pray a lot as well)

 

[CandideWest]

technically empathy only works on earth, where there is suffering. in heaven there is no suffering, so empathy passes away. the reason you do not worry about hell when you are in heaven is that you realize and know that everything is in the good hands of God, even hell.

So you seem to be agreeing with the first bullet point then - that we are stripped of our empathy on entry to heaven? So we can be perfectly happy knowing that former loved ones will burn in agony for billions of years without surcease.

I can’t imagine what it would be like to not care like that.

 

[Fomalhaut]

Not an easy question to answer. I really don’t think I know the answer. I’ve got good reason to believe my own father is in hell, but then we weren’t very close to put it mildly. I suppose if I saw him now, I might feel quite sorry for him, but I can also say that if he wasn’t prepared to change, the very last thing I’d want would be his negative, cruel, stupid, bad tempered, vindictive presence bugging me for eternity in heaven.

I put up with enough of it for about 20 years or more, and it left me with a lifetime of scars in some ways. I have no desire to endure something like that for eternity. If he wants to retain his damnable ways, then fine. But I don’t want to be around him for eternity if that’s his choice. He can spend it with others of like mind as far as I’m concerned.

That is just horrible. You do believe Hell is a place of absolute pain for eternity, and you are actually OK with your father being there ?

 

[OxygenMan]

So you seem to be agreeing with the first bullet point then - that we are stripped of our empathy on entry to heaven? So we can be perfectly happy knowing that former loved ones will burn in agony for billions of years without surcease.

I can’t imagine what it would be like to not care like that.

I would say there is a difference between actual suffering and regret. Regret that a loved one chose to turn away from God is not really the same thing as “suffering” if one resigns them self to the fact that the loved one chose it.

 

[CandideWest]

I would say there is a difference between actual suffering and regret. Regret that a loved one chose to turn away from God is not really the same thing as “suffering” if one resigns them self to the fact that the loved one chose it.

Fair enough, I personally am quite confident that if I knew that someone I cared about was in permanent agony then it would cause me to suffer as well. This is empathy - sharing the feelings of someone else.

In order for me to be in heaven and happy while knowing someone I loved was in hell suffering I could not have that empathy. Otherwise I would be suffering too, perhaps not as badly as my loved one would be suffering, at least not initially, but suffering nonetheless.