The question of miracles - Are there convincing miracle cases?

[TheLittleLady]

For most Canonizations there are researched, documented, miracles.

 

[Pattylt]

If what you experienced had happened to me, I might also be a believer. But I’ve had nothing occur in my life that I could view as miraculous. I’ve had unusual experiences and some coincidences but they were rather ordinary and nothing that seemed to be leading me to God.

This has been one of the perplexing things that I try to understand. I’ve never demanded a demonstration of the divine but there were many times it would have led me back to faith…but, nothing.

 

[MPat]

Could someone explain to me the major point of miracles? Is it to strengthen the faith of those that already believe or is it to convince non believers or those of other faiths of the truth of God? Or, something else?

It depends. See “Catholic encyclopedia” (https://www.catholic.com/encyclopedia/Miracle): it mentions “the glory of God and the good of men”, “evidences attesting and confirming the truth of a Divine mission, or of a doctrine of faith or morals”, “Miracles are wrought to attest true sanctity”, “As benefits either spiritual or temporal”.

I’ve looked into many miracles and, for me, every single one has either a natural explanation, fraud, or just a statistical likelihood of happening anyway.

“For me”?

That is, for each instance of a possible miracle, you can say to yourself that there is a natural explanation?

Sure, that is not hard.

Not a one has convinced me.

You say that as if that indicated a problem with evidence and not a problem with you. Let’s see what this confident (though implicit) claim is based on:

Yes, I’m a skeptic but I like to think that a truly unexplainable event by experts would be accepted by me.

Yep. “I like to think that” - a textbook example of wishful thinking.

People working in science and legal system take various precautions to avoid rushing to dangerous conclusions they like (proclaiming false discoveries, punishing innocents). They are trained to avoid that. And still, such instances happen often enough.

And you imagine that it is sufficient that you merely want to think of yourself as someone who is competent and honest - and you will actually evaluate evidence competently and honestly? To the point that your conclusion “not enough evidence” would say something about evidence and not about you?

 

[Dan_Defender]

But I’ve had nothing occur in my life that I could view as miraculous. I’ve had unusual experiences and some coincidences but they were rather ordinary and nothing that seemed to be leading me to God.

I do not mean to sound disrespectful, but this is a typical situation. Based on my life experience, the gift of God is not for the faithless. I have had at least 3 times in my life when something miraculous happened but I never lacked faith, I lacked other things but never faith. I even consider a miracle that so far I have never undergone surgery in my life while so many people in my family have suffered much. Of course I do not claim to be special in any way, but just my personal observation that faith comes first.

 

[Pattylt]

but just my personal observation that faith comes first.

That would explain a lot!

 

[po18guy]

Interesting thoughts. Any evidence, or do you simply accept that on faith?

I note also that a syetematic behavior which attempts not to have beliefs is a belief system - by defnition. It’s just one that currently suits you.

 

[Annie]

Did you read about the Eucharistic miracles I posted above, which have absolutely been tested scientifically?

What is your natural explanation for them?

The way I see God operating is that He wants us to choose Him. You say you want to see evidence of miracles, scientifically studied, so you can have proof.

Now you are saying that you want a miracle to happen in your life so you can see it.

I do not see God working that way. He seems to provide enough evidence for us to be able to choose, and I think that is what He wants. He doesn’t want people whom He has to convince, just as a woman does not want a man she has to convince to marry her. In each case, the choice to love is what is wanted.

You say you want scientific evidence of miracles: what are you willing to provide? Why not try “scientifically” checking out the Faith yourself? Why not say, for 4 or 6 or 8 weeks, I will live as if I believed, I will say morning prayers, go to Confession (if you are Catholic), read the Bible, speak honestly to God about your life, and see what happens?

God has provided miracles, scientifically studied; what have you done?

 

[MPat]

Hello everyone, new to the forum. I am an Agnostic who’s searching to find the truth. Since I’m trying to find out if Christianity and Catholicism in specific is true, if it includes actual miracles, it would only speak for it. My issue is that most miracle claims are either too far into the past with not much evidence, or things that seem impressive at first sight, but turn out not so, like the Incorruptibles a lot of whom have been found to have been mummified (St Margaret of Cortona for example).

Are there any miracles that you consider really defensible?

That seems to be a wrong direction of investigation to me.

You think that Catholic miracles you have heard of are not very impressive? I’d say that now you should investigate miracles of other religions. But before that, formulate a hypothesis. Ask yourself: what would you expect to find if no religion was true? Shouldn’t you find that miracle claims in all religions would be similar? Found in similar quantities, supported by similar evidence (about equally strong), making about as much sense? Check if that is truly the case. Look for claimed miracles by Muhammad, Buddha, Joseph Smith…

Oh, and, by the way, you didn’t seem to check if miracles make sense, if, for example, they are truly compatible with the doctrines they are supposed to support. Check that.

Then, come back to investigating Catholic miracles.

 

[po18guy]

Why do you think miracles were so plentiful back in the more superstitious past and so seldom declared today?

Not so fast! Today’s culture is by far, indisputably, undoubtedly, clearly, concisely, demonstrably, unarguably the most superstitious age of all. Why? Because of superstitious evolution. Today’s superstitions have only built upon the layers of superstition practiced by preceding generations. And, the decreasing levels of belief in anything outside of the self have only fueled the superstitious fires.

It is the only aspect of the human which has advanced. All others, from the cognitive to the spiritual, even physical, i.e. DNA, have fallen prey to categorical entropy and are in serious, measurable and perhaps irreversible decline.

DEVO had it right.

 

[John10]

Hello, yes there are plenty of cases, many of them documented and scientifically unexplained and inexplicable.

One book that does a very good job to prove this is

Title: “The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural”
Author: Lee Strobel

Miracles not only happened a long time ago in the past (the Bible is full of references to them in both Old and New Testament), but have throughout human history continued to occur.

Granted that they tend to be uncommon, however there is no doubt they continue to occur.

 

[Pattylt]

Why not try “scientifically” checking out the Faith yourself? Why not say, for 4 or 6 or 8 weeks,

I tried for over four years. I never wanted to lose my faith…it just happened and I desperately tried everything. I finally accepted that I no longer believed. I’m still fascinated by why I lost my faith and how others retain theirs. Somehow, I’m just different or unable to believe.

On Eucharistic miracles, have you read the opposing views? The problems with chain of custody? No witness reports? Unknown or unnamed monks? Why don’t Protestants accept it? They believe in God and miracles. Why only Catholics? Do any red flags ever rise in your mind about these claims? Or, is it easier to believe that which confirms what you already believe?

To me, they are pious frauds. Why hasn’t the Church declared it a miracle? It seems they are a bit more cautious than the general Catholic masses. If they DNA test it, is there no Y chromosome or is it completely ordinary DNA? It seems one scientist that no one can verify his findings as he never published it for peer review for the Lanciano miracle is the lone voice of this miracle. Nope, I don’t buy it. There are way too many problems with the “studies”. I’m not asking for the absurd. I’m asking for reasonable evidence from non biased specialists so that I can have well reasoned reasons for believing. This does not qualify. Sorry. Thank you for interacting with me, however. I do appreciate it.

 

[Michael16]

OP: I believe you’re asking the wrong question. Miracles are one aspect of religion. You have to look at the totality and ask yourself: Does this make sense and does it account for all of Creation? Once that question is answered; the issue of miracles resolves itself.

I was once an atheist. I became agnostic and began my spiritual quest because one day, in a high school cafeteria bull session with my friends; I realized that science couldn’t answer one important question: How did life begin?

As I thought of how to answer your question; I thought of three things that point to God.

Three rather improbable things happened that cannot be answered adequately by pure materialistic science.

The Universe began as an ultra dense singularity that simply flashed forth light and began to expand and somehow evolved into a stable universe whose laws of physics that allowed for the rise of life that eventually led to us: Beings with a consciousness that materialistic science cannot explain how it came to be.

Everything is too orderly and balanced to arise out of pure chance and accident.

It’s mathematically absurd the statistical improbability that the Universe with conscious human beings came to be.

Something or someone had to start, guide and shape the Universe and it’s living inhabitants.

Polytheism isn’t a likely explanation. Too many “ deities “ had to arise separately or from a First Family. Where did that First Family come from? Plus; too many competing polytheistic systems all across the world. To explain all of it, without going into Jungian monomyth variations; together would be too complicated and inconsistent.

That argues for monotheism.

Looking at philosophical religions like Neoplatonism? No, the supreme being would be too abstract and impersonal.

 

[Michael16]

I say that abstract and impersonal supreme beings are unlikely because that wouldn’t explain personal spiritual experiences like those of the Early Israelites.

So, there has to be a personal Deity that cares for and interacts with His Creation.

Where do we find that?

The ancient Hebrews. When we begin to investigate the history of this people and their interactions with God, we see a personal Deity that takes an active interest in human beings and their welfare; even giving them a set of laws and a covenant.

The history of this covenant is replete with miracles and signs of God’s power: Like Moses and the wonders God did through him. These miracles are basically acts of God in relationship with His people for their benefit; individually and corporately.

This people couldn’t live up to God’s covenant. So, because He loves the world and the human beings He created; He sent His only Son to save them from eternal death in hell.

This God man ministers and works miracles to prove He is the Son of God, then dies on the Cross because religious authorities of His day thought Him blasphemous. He rises from the dead, as He said He would; manifested Himself to His followers and gave them a final Commission and started a Church to continue His ministry on Earth. Which is the saving of souls. He arises to His Father in heaven; sitting at His right hand until it’s time to return and judge the living and the dead.

After He arose, the Holy Spirit fills the Church with power to do the work given to it by the God man.

2,000 years later, after consistently and faithfully teaching the message of the God man for the saving of souls, this Church still survives intact and whole; because this God man promised that evil wouldn’t prevail against it. Where most human institutions would have folded and crumbled away quite a long time ago.

All the while, this God continues to manifest His power and reveals Himself to His Church in various signs and wonders.

When you look at the totality; everything in this logic chain and history of the Universe outline is one, big, long chain of miracles.

 

[Annie]

I tried for over four years. I never wanted to lose my faith…it just happened and I desperately tried everything. I finally accepted that I no longer believed. I’m still fascinated by why I lost my faith and how others retain theirs. Somehow, I’m just different or unable to believe.

I apologize. There are so many people who just want to scoff.

I don’t know what to say about your situation.

To me, when doubtful thoughts come, I treat them as temptations, just as I would when as a married woman I would treat thoughts against my husband or attractions for other men as temptations. Ideally, I think of God as smarter than I am (not perfect in this area ) and knowing more than I do.

I hope that you will regain your faith, but I don’t think that will happen by examining miracles and doing things like that. That seems inadequate, like adding up the prices of gifts a spouse gives to see how much love is there?

May God grant you peace and love for Him.

 

[Pattylt]

Thank you. Just so you know, I have great respect for those that examine their beliefs or go through dark nights and emerge from them stronger in their faiths. I admire many that believe in God and completely respect their views. I never thought I’d loose my faith and was lost and confused with what I went through. The Why question will most likely never be answered by anyone, least of all, me! I don’t wish it on anyone but I have accepted it and found that life still has great meaning, I’m still a moral and mostly kind person. I made peace with all of it a long time ago.

I’m not the only atheist/agnostic to have gone through it. I never had an anger phase that many atheists seem to go through and I know only a very few atheists that hate religion or God. Most just move on with their lives.

Thanks for your prayers…another thing I don’t object to!. Peace to you, as well!

 

[Annie]

It seems that we do have the DNA of Christ.

 

[Irishmom2]

Some people: “Lord, send me a miracle!”
And when he does: “Lord, prove to me it is a miracle!”

 

[graciew]

I don’t think it is the Church ,as memebers of the hierarchy that spreads them ( or the public endorsement you mention)as much as us the people at least at the beginning.
I went to visit a Church where what we mention and refer to as an Eucharistic miracle had taken place. That is how I name the event for it to be understood here.Not saying it was or it wasn’t a miracle.
There , the treatment and explanations weren’t but objectively descriptive , discreet , and even short of further comments. Nor further questions asked , it sort of rested in our hearts to give the event a place to say it somehow.
Very respectfully, the stress was on Adoration which followed then,and the Real Presence, as usual, to explain it somehow.
All what was written and spread in the media, they would not comment and carefully stressed that what they were saying was what they were responsible for in accordance with the Bishop. In other words, they wouldn’t publicize this event either.And we were asked please to keep this reserve when referring to this.
This to explain briefly the distance between the sobriety of the treatment of some event in situ and what it may become as a result of it spreading.

 

[DeSales111]

John 29:29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen and have believed.

 

[Annie]

Please quote from the article where it says we have Jesus’ DNA.

Again, without revealing the origin of the test samples, the experts compared the Buenos Aires lab reports with those from Lanciano. They concluded that the reports must be from the same samples. Both samples revealed an “AB”-positive blood type, which occurs in 5% of the population. The DNA is identical, and there are features to indicate that the man came from the Middle East. (It is also noteworthy that these lab results match up with those from the Shroud of Turin and the Cloth of Oviedo.)

Surely if scientists possessed the DNA of Jesus it would be worldwide news.

No… much bigger news if there is something wrong!

Anyway, I would not swear they have the DNA, but I have read about it in various places. I will try to find something more definitive one way or the other.