The Rapture

[brb2]

If you call the word of God a lie
See even non Catholics disagree in the word.

We do not know when the catching away will be and let me point out that we don’t even know that the resurrection will not happen before the tribulation.
Read Revelation 20:5 (This scripture says “Blessed are those that take part in the first resurrection”
The first resurrection clearly happens before the great white throne judgement.

in Revelation 20:5 the scripture says Blessed are those who take part in the first resurrection.It also says the rest of the dead(Those in Hell) will not be resurrected until the great white throne judgement.

Exactly ! Why can’t cradle Catholics see the writings before their noses, in scripture. As Ryanoneil has said, the Early Church WROTE THEM, and Believed them. Paul and Justin Martyr clearly believed in a Rapture … BEFORE the ARMAGEDDON period !

Now, Origen and Augustine had great minds … but, sorry — they came 300 year later. I trust the judgment of the first Apostles on this call. And, as one has pointed out, even Augustine at one time saw the Rapture being taught. It seems the later ECF’s only came to believe in a Raptureless End Times … because the EARLY Christians believed it would happen in the lifetimes. And, after a # of generations had passed w/o the ‘catching away’, they started to explain it in a different light.

How can Catholics so easily admit the Early Church believe thusly, … but, TODAY we know they were wrong ? Thats not c/w the deposit of faith.

 

[brb2]

This is 100% going to happen,the catching away and the resurrection.So based on my findings which has not settled how these events are going to unfold because Jesus meant it this way or else the book of the apocalypse would not be future hidden events

I vote with you. Christ so clearly, repeatedly taught this. His Apostles ALL took this message to heart. The Early Church believed it. And, we can see Paul pointing out scripture to support Rapture of Enoch … before the Genesis Flood Tribulation, that PREFIGURES the Church New Covenant situation.

It was only after a few generations … that the LATER Christians started to SECOND GUESS the Apostolic Teaching.

We know Catholics have long held differences of opinion on the matter … as early as 160 AD [Justin Martyr’s day]. So, it shouldn’t be a matter that rises to the level of Heresy

I prefer to say "I hold the Original, Apostolic view’ … rather than guess at subsequent ‘opinions’.

Furthermore, clearly Moses was Raptured … or at least Resurrected after his death. There he appears with Elijah … BEFORE Christ goes to the Underworld to take a host of captives with him to heaven. Please CFJ’s [and others], the Jews just ASSUMED he died. No Jew buried him, no one prepared his body for the grave. Would God allow Moses to just walk up the mountain, die among the rocks, becoming food for the ravens and birds of prey ? God loved Moses ! He walked/talked with God, even saw the back of God. Who else has ever been granted this privilege ?

If God buried him … as the Jews claim happened … then clearly he was Resurrected, before the Day of the Cross. And, I don’t see that notion taught in scriptures.

Ask yourself this. Why did God have Moses go up the mountain ALONE, not letting the Jews follow him. Only One reason makes sense to me. The Lord took him up, in an Elijah or Enoch Rapture event.

 

[CentralFLJames]

Exactly ! Why can’t cradle Catholics see the writings before their noses, in scripture. As Ryanoneil has said, the Early Church WROTE THEM, and Believed them. Paul and Justin Martyr clearly believed in a Rapture … BEFORE the ARMAGEDDON period !

Now, Origen and Augustine had great minds … but, sorry — they came 300 year later. I trust the judgment of the first Apostles on this call. And, as one has pointed out, even Augustine at one time saw the Rapture being taught. It seems the later ECF’s only came to believe in a Raptureless End Times … because the EARLY Christians believed it would happen in the lifetimes. And, after a # of generations had passed w/o the ‘catching away’, they started to explain it in a different light.

How can Catholics so easily admit the Early Church believe thusly, … but, TODAY we know they were wrong ? Thats not c/w the deposit of faith.

Not so fast brb - just a few posts ago you had conjured out of thin air a new teaching against plain biblical evidence that Moses was raptured to heaven and did not die. Before we go further can you PLEASE admit here publicly that you are fallable and that you have been proven wrong abour Moses not dieing and admit that The Church NEVER taught that Moses did not die? You seem to have a selective standard about when to listen to the Church beliefs and when you want to spin all new ideas that run counter to 2,000 years of understanding and teaching. No disrespect - but you got it wrong before and you have wrong again. I must say for a person who is very very close to being Catholic in belief this is disappointing to hear from you. Normally you track dead-on with Catholic belief.

About the “First” and “Second” Resurrection
The spirituall resurrection experienced by the saints in heaven is known as “the first resurrection” (Rev 20:5b), and it signifies that one will not be cast into hell to experience “the second death” (Rev 20:6).

The resurrection of the body (second resurrection) is an essential Christian doctrine, as the apostle Paul declares: "If the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished" (1 Cor. 15:13–18).

Because, as Paul tells us, the Christian faith cannot exist without this doctrine, it has been infallibly defined by the Church. It is included in the three infallible professions of faith—the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed—and has been solemnly, infallibly taught by ecumenical councils.

So if you doubt the early Church believed in but ONE bodily resurrection (the 2nd Resurrection) then look to the plain words of the OLD original Apostles Creed (OR to the Nicene Creed or to the Athanasian Creed):

*“I believe in . . . the forgiveness of sins, **the **resurrection of the flesh. Amen” (Old Roman Symbol [A.D. 125]). *

Do you doubt that this old Creed was not believed fully by the Early Church?

Notice the word THE - there is no “second” used here but a single bodily resurrection. We already hold from St. Paul’s dialog that our faith is vain if the first SPIRITUAL resurrection is false therefor the Creed would be a useless expression of faith to recite if we did not already believe in the first SPIRITUAL resurrection. But since we DO recite the Creed it is axiomatically obvious that ALL true Christians who recite it believe in the first spiritual resurrection IMMEDIATELY at physical death (personal judgement of one’s soul – the good to heaven the wicked to hell) AND believe in the bodily resurrection - the second resurrection - at the time of Christ’s 2nd coming.

The big error of millianiarism and pre-trib “secret” rapture is in imagining that Christ comes in the TEMPORAL sense of the conquering Jewish Messiah to battle and conquer death and Satan in HUMAN TIMES. Satan has already been substantially dis-empowered at Christ’s resurrection - we are just in the final throws of Christ’s victory as humanity is given its time to choose each soul’s master and then at the appointed time Christ puts a complete end to DEATH.

The idea of a TEMPORAL (i.e. in human time) MESSIANIC VICTORY IS FALSE. Final Victory comes at the completion of time BY DIVINE JUDGEMENT that is OUTSIDE OF TIME. God simply DECLARES BY HIS AWESOME DIVINE JUDGMENT - HIS FINAL SENTENCE (The second judgement). Jesus IS the LIVING FIRST AND LAST WORD - The Logos. Once THE LAST WORD is declared IT IS OVER – END OF STORY - NO APPEALS - NO BATTLE - CHRIST IS LORD - NO CONTEST. CHRIST IS ALL POWERFUL and all that created beings (both elect and damned) do is LISTEN in trembling silence. As soon as Christ proclaims His Judgement we are in a new era – the elect to ETERNAL REJOICING and the damned to ETERNAL WEEPING and SHAME.

It’s pretty simple stuff.

James

 

[brb2]

Not so fast brb - just a few posts ago you had conjured out of thin air a new teaching against plain biblical evidence that Moses was raptured to heaven and did not die. Before we go further can you PLEASE admit here publicly that you are fallable and that you have been proven wrong abour Moses not dieing and admit that The Church NEVER taught that Moses did not die?

About the “First” and “Second” Resurrection
The spirituall resurrection experienced by the saints in heaven is known as “the first resurrection” (Rev 20:5b), and it signifies that one will not be cast into hell to experience “the second death” (Rev 20:6).

So if you doubt the early Church believed in but ONE bodily resurrection (the 2nd Resurrection) then look to the plain words of the OLD original Apostles Creed (OR to the Nicene Creed or to the Athanasian Creed):

Do you doubt that this old Creed was not believed fully by the Early Church?

since we DO recite the Creed it is axiomatically obvious that ALL true Christians who recite it believe in the first spiritual resurrection IMMEDIATELY at physical death (personal judgement of one’s soul – the good to heaven the wicked to hell) AND believe in the bodily resurrection - the second resurrection - at the time of Christ’s 2nd coming.

The big error of millianiarism and pre-trib “secret” rapture is in imagining that Christ comes in the TEMPORAL sense of the conquering Jewish Messiah to battle and conquer death and Satan in HUMAN TIMES. Satan has already been substantially dis-empowered at Christ’s resurrection - we are just in the final throws of Christ’s victory

The idea of a TEMPORAL (i.e. in human time) MESSIANIC VICTORY IS FALSE. Final Victory comes at the completion of time BY DIVINE JUDGEMENT that is OUTSIDE OF TIME. God simply DECLARES BY HIS AWESOME DIVINE JUDGMENT - HIS FINAL SENTENCE (The second judgement). Jesus IS the LIVING FIRST AND LAST WORD - The Logos. Once THE LAST WORD is declared IT IS OVER – END OF STORY - NO APPEALS - NO BATTLE - CHRIST IS LORD - NO CONTEST. CHRIST IS ALL POWERFUL and all that created beings (both elect and damned) do is LISTEN in trembling silence. As soon as Christ proclaims His Judgement we are in a new era – the elect to ETERNAL REJOICING and the damned to ETERNAL WEEPING and SHAME.

It’s pretty simple stuff.

HA !!! Famous last words … “pretty simple stuff”. Not so fast yourself
Your proof was a rambling, off point apologetic … not supported by scripture. Certainly not the well researched, thought provoking, illumination you can normally bring to a topic.
But, I don’t doubt you ‘will eventually’ master this topic … and be able to express your points more concisely.

I’ve removed some of your ‘opinion’, to make it more readible and to allow me to hone in on several of your apologetic points.

1.) Matter of Moses’ final ending//// Yes, scriptures in final Chp. of Deut. and first Chp. of Joshua … speak of ‘death’ and burial of Moses. But, WHO was the author of this scenario ? Either Moses wrote of his ending, before he walked off to his final moment on Earth … or the Jews ASSUMED he must of died, and dealt in scripture with this as best they could imagine his ending. Do we have any FIRST HAND WITNESSES to his ending ? NO ! God alone knows.

---

POINTS IN FAVOR OF HIS RAPTURE … OR RESURRECTION:

A). We find him alive with Elijah, conversing with Christ on the HOLY MOUNT … before, the DAY of the CROSS. Has a BODY, viewed by the 3 closest to Christ … and they told not to speak of this event. Later, Christ allowed them to reveal to the Church.
B). God had already shown a consistent pattern of Rapturing the HOLY ONES. First Enoch, later Elijah. Only other holy ones were allowed to witness the event … Elisha being considered ‘worthy’ of seeing and receiving the Double Portion - from Elijah. Was Moses not equally worthy of being ‘caught up’ to God as these others ? YES ! The Jews considered him the Greatest of the Greats.
C). Deut. 32:48-50 And the Lord said to Moses that very day, “Ascend this mountain of the Abarim, Mt. Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, opposite Jericho; and view the land of Canann, which I give to the people of Israel for a possession; and die ON THE MOUNTAIN ’ WHICH YOU ASCEND’, and BE GATHERED TO YOUR PEOPLE, AS AARON YOUR BROTHER died in Mt. Hor AND WAS GATHERED TO HIS PEOPLE; …”

Now these are the words of God on the matter in question. Chp. 34 which comes later, appears to be ‘added’ by Jews … as speculation about his final ending. Even claims he was buried by God IN THE VALLEY (34:6) … yet, goes on to say no one knows his burial place. It is my belief that Deut 32 … with words of God … is the better source for his ending. He ASCENDS the Mt. … and is GATHERED to his people. Who are ‘his people’ … mentioned in the text ? Appears the Holy ones who have gone before him. No doubt — Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc … and even Aaron who is mentioned here.
Those who resided with God … might we say ? A heavenly abode … could we conclude ? Recall, scriptures say God didn’t allow satan access to Moses … so Moses had no Earthly abode, one could logically argue.

Now, you give us your points against his Rapture. A tough apologetic case for you my friend …

 

[onenow1]

1.) Matter of Moses’ final ending//// Yes, scriptures in final Chp. of Deut. and first Chp. of Joshua … speak of ‘death’ and burial of Moses. But, WHO was the author of this scenario ?

The person/persons who wrote it, guided by the Holy Spirit.

brb2:

Either Moses wrote of his ending, before he walked off to his final moment on Earth … or the Jews ASSUMED he must of died, and dealt in scripture with this as best they could imagine his ending. Do we have any FIRST HAND WITNESSES to his ending ? NO ! God alone knows.

As God told us in Deuteronomy.

Peace and God Bless
onenow1

 

[cpayne]

If this thread is not to your likings then perhaps you should venture on

Thanks for the invitation. I accept. Bye!

 

[CentralFLJames]

HA !!! Famous last words … “pretty simple stuff”. Not so fast yourself
Your proof was a rambling, off point apologetic … not supported by scripture. Certainly not the well researched, thought provoking, illumination you can normally bring to a topic.
But, I don’t doubt you ‘will eventually’ master this topic … and be able to express your points more concisely.

I’ve removed some of your ‘opinion’, to make it more readible and to allow me to hone in on several of your apologetic points.

1.) Matter of Moses’ final ending//// Yes, scriptures in final Chp. of Deut. and first Chp. of Joshua … speak of ‘death’ and burial of Moses. But, WHO was the author of this scenario ? Either Moses wrote of his ending, before he walked off to his final moment on Earth … or the Jews ASSUMED he must of died, and dealt in scripture with this as best they could imagine his ending. Do we have any FIRST HAND WITNESSES to his ending ? NO ! God alone knows.

---

POINTS IN FAVOR OF HIS RAPTURE … OR RESURRECTION:

A). We find him alive with Elijah, conversing with Christ on the HOLY MOUNT … before, the DAY of the CROSS. Has a BODY, viewed by the 3 closest to Christ … and they told not to speak of this event. Later, Christ allowed them to reveal to the Church.
B). God had already shown a consistent pattern of Rapturing the HOLY ONES. First Enoch, later Elijah. Only other holy ones were allowed to witness the event … Elisha being considered ‘worthy’ of seeing and receiving the Double Portion - from Elijah. Was Moses not equally worthy of being ‘caught up’ to God as these others ? YES ! The Jews considered him the Greatest of the Greats.
C). Deut. 32:48-50 And the Lord said to Moses that very day, “Ascend this mountain of the Abarim, Mt. Nebo, which is in the land of Moab, opposite Jericho; and view the land of Canann, which I give to the people of Israel for a possession; and die ON THE MOUNTAIN ’ WHICH YOU ASCEND’, and BE GATHERED TO YOUR PEOPLE, AS AARON YOUR BROTHER died in Mt. Hor AND WAS GATHERED TO HIS PEOPLE; …”

Now these are the words of God on the matter in question. Chp. 34 which comes later, appears to be ‘added’ by Jews … as speculation about his final ending. Even claims he was buried by God IN THE VALLEY (34:6) … yet, goes on to say no one knows his burial place. It is my belief that Deut 32 … with words of God … is the better source for his ending. He ASCENDS the Mt. … and is GATHERED to his people. Who are ‘his people’ … mentioned in the text ? Appears the Holy ones who have gone before him. No doubt — Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc … and even Aaron who is mentioned here.
Those who resided with God … might we say ? A heavenly abode … could we conclude ? Recall, scriptures say God didn’t allow satan access to Moses … so Moses had no Earthly abode, one could logically argue.

Now, you give us your points against his Rapture. A tough apologetic case for you my friend …

The plain literal words of scripture are that Moses died just as God said he would. Let’s not forget that Moses murdered and that Moses disobeyed God in striking the rock with his staff – THAT is why he was disallowed to enter the promised land in the first place - DISOBEDIENCE. God brought Moses up to the mountain to “see” the promised land and to deny him entrance and to end his days just short of attaining it just as He had foretold.

The vision of Moses at the transfiguration is just that - a vision of Christ’s transfigured Glory and also of Moses and Elijah. Just as Angels have no corporeal bodies in heaven they often come as visions appearing in the form of humans (ref. the angels who visited Lot etc.). The vision of Christ’s transfiguration was just that - a VISION - a mere glimpse into the glory of Christ that was revealed to a chosen few and to make the prophecy true about ‘some of those standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God. Luke 9:27’

Do we have first hand witnesses - YES - the Holy Spirit who wrote Scripture. We have seen this same Divine witness many times in the NT. How do you think we got the account of Mary and the angel Gabriel during her great fiat? Was any scripture writer there? How do you think we got the early accounts of Jesus BEFORE he called any apostle and was baptised by John the Baptist? Was ANY apostle or gospel writer there? How does St. Paul get all of His information about Christ when he was converted and starts writing his epistles about Him when he was not present at all during Christ’s teachings nor one of the original twelve?

You are jumping through hoops sideways and backwards to do everything you can to ignore the plain and primary sense of scripture which is always literal. The vision of Moses was just that - a vision of heaven and a mere glimpse into Christ’s radiant Glory that is withheld until we see Him in heaven and are also made like Him at the second coming when given glorified bodies.

Open a new “Did Moses Die” discussion thread if you really want to continue arguing an indefensible position.

James

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes I know revelation 20:5 talks about the people beheaded.This throws a curve here for me
This always did seem to fit after the tribulation,since people get beheaded during that time for not taking the mark.
How does this work for you believing Nero was the beast and marked people(Spiritually?)Clearly the tribulation has not happened yet.

This gets back to the initial fulfillment of much of scripture which points to a more significant final fulfillment at the end of time. Nero demanded emperor worship and required sacrifice. Those who refused were marked for death but they were given God’s mark of eternal life. This happened on an individual basis. It also happened on a large scale. Because the Temple Jews gave in to offering sacrifice to Nero in order to appease and survive. When they eventually refused they were marked for death and the full force of Rome came against them. The tribulation is the years leading up to and the 3 1/2 years of the actual war which led to the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple.

With the Temple gone, the OT era officially came to an end. Although the Church age had already started (and there was covenantal transition for 40 years) it became official when the OT era ended. This is the start of the 1,000 reign. The first resurrection of those who were beheaded is there entry into heaven after their death. They reign with Him during the Church age in heaven. At the end of the 1,000 years the Church age will end and we will experience the final more significant fulfillment of the tribulation (Rev 20:7-9) on a global scale. I can’t say how this will play out exactly. It could mirror the past somehow (or not).

The rapture and resurrection of the body will take place in (Rev 20:9b -15). This is at the last hour of the last day. Then Rev 21 is permanent because everthing is a new creation. We have our glorified bodies and spend eternity with the Lord. There is no imperfect 1,000 year earthly reign of the Lord to look forward to. When the Lord returns He reigns for eternity in perfection.

questions?

 

[CWBetts]

Or you could pick up the Bible and read in 1 Thess 4 Paul talks of the Catching Away/Rapture.This is not a new teaching.

Your interpretation is probably hopelessly flawed.

 

[ryanoneil]

Yes I know revelation 20:5 talks about the people beheaded.This throws a curve here for me
This always did seem to fit after the tribulation,since people get beheaded during that time for not taking the mark.
How does this work for you believing Nero was the beast and marked people(Spiritually?)Clearly the tribulation has not happened yet.

The beast was caught and with it the false prophet who had performed in its sight the signs by which he led astray those who had accepted the mark of the beast and those who had worshiped its image. The two were thrown alive into the fiery pool burning with sulfur. The rest were killed by the sword that came out of the mouth of the one riding the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Rev 19:20-21)

The other things is we don’t see this as a literal physical coming of Christ. It is literary and it is only the execution of Christ’s judgment that came in the initial fulfillment. In reality Nero (beast) commited suicide and the Sanhedrin (false prophet/harlot) died from the Roman beast that turned on her. It was Christ’s judgment none the less. Just like the LORD did not physically appear on a cloud here.

**Oracle on Egypt: See, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud on his way to Egypt; The idols of Egypt tremble before him, the hearts of the Egyptians melt within them. (Isa 19:1)

But in reality His judgment was executed by the cloud of Assyrians

In the year the general sent by Sargon, king of Assyria, fought against Ashdod and captured it (Isa 20:1)**

Christ will literally physically return on a cloud at the last hour though.

 

[sauce]

Your interpretation is probably hopelessly flawed.

THANKS. I needed a laugh.

 

[brb2]

The vision of Moses at the transfiguration is just that - a vision of Christ’s transfigured Glory and also of Moses and Elijah. Just as Angels have no corporeal bodies in heaven they often come as visions appearing in the form of humans (ref. the angels who visited Lot etc.). The vision of Christ’s transfiguration was just that - a VISION

You … do everything you can to ignore the plain and primary sense of scripture which is always literal.

Wow ! You are taking ‘liberal’ poetic license to make your case. A slippery slope, that opens up possibility that Mary’s visitation was only a vision. And, from one who claims I ignore the plain, literal sense of scripture Lets sleep on it for now … maybe one of us will have an epiphany ‘vision’.

U’r my mentor CFJ ! No one has taught me as much on Catholic understandings. :tiphat:

 

[brb2]

[The origins of Millenarianism are rooted in the hopes of the Jews for a** temporal Messiah

. Though millenarianism had found numerous adherents among early Christians and had been upheld by several ecclesiastical theologians, neither in the post-Apostolic period nor in the course of the second century, does it appear as a universal doctrine of the Church or as a part of the Apostolic tradition. Repeat millenarianism is rejected before the close of the 2nd century and only a few minor advocates pop-up randomly for a century more.

Sir. Isaac Newton believed in the 1000 year reign. Also predicted end of time in 2060 AD … after deliberate study of Daniel and Revelations. He sealed his writings on topic … which were rediscovered in 1930’s. His writings on prophesy were released by Jewish Nation, who own them, in 1980’s.

He also believed/wrote in his papers that Jewish Nation would be reformed in 1944. Didn’t miss that date by much did he ? And he also taught the Rapture … in his End Time writings. He taught that Science would prove existance of God … and recent www.bethlehemstar.net/ info supports him.

 

[CWBetts]

Sir. Isaac Newton believed in the 1000 year reign. Also predicted end of time in 2060 AD … after deliberate study of Daniel and Revelations. He sealed his writings on topic … which were rediscovered in 1930’s. His writings on prophesy were released by Jewish Nation, who own them, in 1980’s.

He also believed/wrote in his papers that Jewish Nation would be reformed in 1944. Didn’t miss that date by much did he ? And he also taught the Rapture … in his End Time writings. He taught that Science would prove existance of God … and recent www.bethlehemstar.net/ info supports him.

He was way off as far as the Jewish nation goes. It was reformed, complete with eternal king in AD 33. The current state of Israel is not synonymous with the 12 Tribes of the OT.

 

[brb2]

He was way off as far as the Jewish nation goes. It was reformed, complete with eternal king in AD 33. The current state of Israel is not synonymous with the 12 Tribes of the OT.

Yes, the 12 Apostles … representing the 12 tribes. Nonetheless, we are discussing John’s Revelation … in 80-90’s AD. Are you suggesting that the majority of his Vision was just an explanation of PRIOR events ? The Early Church didn’t view it this way … why should we ?

 

[CWBetts]

Yes, the 12 Apostles … representing the 12 tribes. Nonetheless, we are discussing John’s Revelation … in 80-90’s AD. Are you suggesting that the majority of his Vision was just an explanation of PRIOR events ? The Early Church didn’t view it this way … why should we ?

John’s revelation is about the end of the world, and about the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, and about Nero, and about the Mass. This is not an either/or situation. And all the current state of Israel has in common with the Israel of the OT is a name. The Kingdom has been restored for a long time. It was the reason for the baptism of Jesus. It was the reason for the 12. The restoration of Israel came with the establishment of the Church.

 

[brb2]

John’s revelation is about the end of the world, and about the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, and about Nero, and about the Mass. This is not an either/or situation. And all the current state of Israel has in common with the Israel of the OT is a name. The Kingdom has been restored for a long time. It was the reason for the baptism of Jesus. It was the reason for the 12. The restoration of Israel came with the establishment of the Church.

A BOTH/AND revelation you suggest. For the Church … and for the Jews. The Church being the New Israel ?

Then, why after 2000 years have the vast majority of Jews not understood the Catholic explanation ? Why do they still hope for a 3rd Temple, on the Mount, where the Moslem Dome on the Rock now stands ?

Christ’s Gospel message was alway directed FIRST to the Jews, and then the Gentiles. But Christianity is still PREDOMINANTLY a gentile faith. If the Catholic Church, after 2000 years, hasn’t made much headway with the Jewish people … what will it take to illuminate them ?

Surely Revelations contains the prophetic End-Time answers. Wouldn’t they respond to a Pre-Trib. Rapture of the Church ? YES ! They also would respond to a return of Elijah. But, a post-trib rapture … would be too late to provide the illumination they need. God never utterly abandons his chosen people. He will yet provide them the illumination, to belatedly accept Christ as King. Christ appearing in the sky, calling his elect via Rapture … would provide your BOTH/AND ending.

 

[onenow1]

John’s revelation is about the end of the world, and about the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, and about Nero, and about the Mass. This is not an either/or situation. And all the current state of Israel has in common with the Israel of the OT is a name. The Kingdom has been restored for a long time. It was the reason for the baptism of Jesus. It was the reason for the 12. The restoration of Israel came with the establishment of the Church.

Yup ! For God there is all in all, past present and future, we just can’t wrap our heads around how.

Peace,onenow1opcorn:

 

[CentralFLJames]

Wow ! You are taking ‘liberal’ poetic license to make your case. A slippery slope, that opens up possibility that Mary’s visitation was only a vision. And, from one who claims I ignore the plain, literal sense of scripture Lets sleep on it for now … maybe one of us will have an epiphany ‘vision’.

U’r my mentor CFJ ! No one has taught me as much on Catholic understandings. :tiphat:

Jesus had not yet risen from the dead and was not yet received into His full glory. This was a supernatural vision – a preview of Christ’s resurrected heavenly glory. But this does not diminish the truth in any way since divine visions are truth and are an actuality in eternity - which is beyond time. Every moment we live and breath is to the heavenly host in the “eternal now” which simultaneously encompasses all of the past, present and future. Jesus gave only a small glimpse into His eternal glory. He also wanted to let us know that those just men who are departed are very much alive in heaven and are still very much a part of Divine Plan.

My statements do not open up the possibility that Mary’s visitation was “only a vision”. Mary was implanted with the Divine Seed of Faith and gave God a body through her human facilities which she gave to God in trust and faith in Him. The angel Gabriel would have appeared to Mary most probably in a splendid human form that would make it obvious that Gabriel was of heavenly origin but not so angelically splendid that it would frighten and overwhelm her too much. No human could take in the full beauty and glory of even the least soul in heaven without being overcome and perishing in joy, fear, awe and wonder. This is why I think God hides himself in spiritual form and why He limits himself to being seen in signs (the burning bush, the dove, tongue of fire) and why He chose to come in human form as Jesus - so we could relate to him in human ways and not be overcome by his Glory and Holiness. But I digress…

The divine words spoken to Mary and during the Transfiguration accounts are as real then as now and as they are in heaven irrespective of coming through vision or physical visitation etc.

As an interesting aside please note things said here by “God the Father” spoken at the transfiguration and compare them to some other things said by Mary, “Mother of God” said previously at the wedding of Cana:

Mark 9:7 Then a cloud formed, overshadowing them, and a voice came out of the cloud, “This is My beloved Son, listen to Him!”

John 2:5 His mother said to the servants, “Whatever He says to you, do it.”

James

 

[ryanoneil]

Sir. Isaac Newton believed in the 1000 year reign. Also predicted end of time in 2060 AD … after deliberate study of Daniel and Revelations. He sealed his writings on topic … which were rediscovered in 1930’s. His writings on prophesy were released by Jewish Nation, who own them, in 1980’s.

He also believed/wrote in his papers that Jewish Nation would be reformed in 1944. Didn’t miss that date by much did he ? And he also taught the Rapture … in his End Time writings. He taught that Science would prove existance of God … and recent www.bethlehemstar.net/ info supports him.

I watched that show and was kind of sad that Newton made such fundemental mistakes. Daniel was primarily concerned with the Advent of the Messiah, not a far distant return. Where does sacred scripture mention the crowning of Charlemagne in 800 A.D. as the start date Newton used. They didn’t explain that at all and they should have. My side hurt from laughing so hard. They also said Newton read and added dates in the book of Revelation chronologically which is a fundemental error. Plus more. Oh well, it was entertaining.