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Louemma
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When one believes in the Rapture is not to believe one is in a special group.So this is not a view held by a rapture watcher.To be spared any kind of tribulation,this would only be for those who are pretrib,
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Louemma
Guest
Thank you for the information
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Peter_Dawson
Guest
Whereas Scripture does not support THE Rapture, Scripture does support A Rapture – for Real Presence Consuming Catholics!!!
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RedBert
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What’s the Catholic Position?..
**With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word “rapture” to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term “rapture” is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—“we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]). **
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
**With respect to the rapture, Catholics certainly believe that the event of our gathering together to be with Christ will take place, though they do not generally use the word “rapture” to refer to this event (somewhat ironically, since the term “rapture” is derived from the text of the Latin Vulgate of 1 Thess. 4:17—“we will be caught up,” [Latin: rapiemur]). **
catholic.com/library/Rapture.asp
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Randy_Carson
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Post 18 above.
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Louemma
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I will say that this is the understanding that I gather from reading God’s word.However this belief poses a problem.Now the Rapture and the second coming occur together,then we would need to believe that the dead in Christ rise first and those who are alive and remain will be caught up with them to meet the Lord.How does this fit in with the 1000 year reign?
Of course we can’t place the 1000 year reign before the second coming but scripture tells us that we(God’s children) will rule and reign with Christ this 1000 years.If the dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive and remain are caught up in the air to meet the Lord,what we do a u turn and come back to earth?
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Louemma
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I thought most understood the word Rapture was another word for The Catching Away.So if it’s all in a word then perhaps we should refer hereafter on this subject as The Catching Away.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Thanks for your clarifications. Catholic agree with you that the whole word of God must be obeyed and taken to heart in order to be assured of proper teaching. But we differ in that you belive that the bible is the whole word of God. But there was not one single word written down on parchment or clay tablets for 40 years after Christ’s resurrection so The Word comes to us FIRST from Oral Tradition and then SOME of it is written down later (40-60 years later). Catholics chose the canon of the bible and most of what you call the bible by what WE practiced in the early church TRADITIONS. The Church and the Holy Spirit operating through the Church begot the Bible – the bible did NOT beget the Church. It is important that you understand that God’s Word comes to us in two forms - Sacred Tradition (the way we pray, teach and pass on information) AND Sacred Scripture. If you have one but not the other you are an incomplete Christian who is not benefiting from ALL of God’s Word who’s culmination is in the Living Word of God - Jesus Christ.
I don’t understand your statement "We can’t get around end times events in the bible?"
Catholics do not try to “get around end time events”. We just don’t occupy ourselves with them to the distraction of not trusting God. We trust in God to save us from damnation if we love Him and obey his commandments AND the authority, that is, the apostolic authority & leadership of His Church. Our principal focus is on keeping ourselves faithful and out of sin and in a ready state of grace since we know not the hour of Christ’s return or “that day” when the Lord comes like a theif in the night to take our lives and give an account of ourselves. So most Catholic focus on the things they have direct control over (with God’s grace) - their own lives and behaviors. For the sum of the entire human population since the beginning of time is hundreds of billions of souls “That Day” for 99% of the human race is simply the day that they die and encounter Christ as Just Judge. Only a small percentage of the human race will live to encounter The Tribulation in a global sense. So for most of us it is just smarter to focus on one’s own life rather than worry ourselves sick about tribulation persecution.
If you know anything at all about Revelation you know that the book is THE ONLY book in the NT that uses apocalyptic styles of writing that is full of complex imagery as well as literal words and expressions. It is not a book for rank amateurs to try to divan their own private interpretations with. We are always encouraged to read scripture but The Church is the sole authority on interpretation. This is not the place for some ambiguous and dubious 19th Century writer (Darby) or seer or publishing press to teach us - they have NO authority to do so. Jesus EXPLICITLY warned us not to worry about our salvation if we have faith in Him and do as He commanded us.
James
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ryanoneil
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Catholics (and the overwhelming majority of Christians throughout history) place the 1000 years before the second coming. We have been in the 1000 years since Christ ascended to heaven. Rev 1-19 describes the tribulation of the 1st century. Christ “coming” in the 1st century was only literal in the sense that his judgment came to Jerusalem and the Temple. Those who currently reign with Christ were martyred and their first resurrection is when they rose to heaven. Christ is reigning now. Our tribulation will come when the 1,000 years ends and Satan is released from prison. We only have the last half of chapter 20 and all of chapter 21 left to experience.
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panevino
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I don’t know much about rapture theory… But reading the above and reading the verses before and following the verse about those taken, it does seem quite clear that non believers/evil servants are the one cut asunder as occured in the Noah story that preceeds the people In The field.
What am I missing , this is to simple an error in reading of the verses, is there some trick to the Greek that i’m not aware of is there othr verses that Protestants use to say that the believes are taken up here???
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Louemma
Guest
Yes there is scripture to indicate that believers are in fact the ones caught up.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
To print out the verse that speaks of Christians Caught Up
1 Thess.4:17 After that,we who are alive and remain will be “Caught Up” together with them to meet the Lord in the air.
Do a study on the word “Parousia”
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
To print out the verse that speaks of Christians Caught Up
1 Thess.4:17 After that,we who are alive and remain will be “Caught Up” together with them to meet the Lord in the air.
Do a study on the word “Parousia”
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Louemma
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Good Grief! I did not say Catholics try to get around studying end times.
I said we who study the Bible can not avoid the end time prophecy.
I understand that salvation is what our goal as Christian is.To spread the good news.However in scripture God says"For lack of knowledge destroys my people!"
So we need to know all God’s word.
I would still like scripture on where we must all be Catholic before the tribulation hits.
Trust me,I am not an amateur in God’s word.I know what Revelation says but the word also tells us to “Work out our own salvation with fear and trembling” so this scripture contradicts your statement about"Don’t worry about our salvation.
If you remember there will be some who think they have Salvation.This of course being the “Sheep and the Goats!” So yes we must have Faith but then the word tells us that “We all have a portion of Faith” and Faith is the most important,however we must search the scriptures and our own salvation.
Also let me go ahead and say,I’m speaking of Christians in general.
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Spencerian
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Hi, Louemma.
A common problem that Catholics sometimes have when discussing Scripture with non-Catholic Christians is how some of them take Scripture out of context to the book from where a small series of verses were taken. While, of course, the New Testament actually does this itself as Christ says or does something that fulfills Old Testament prophesies of His coming. For instance, while on the Cross, He says, “My God, My God, why have you abandoned me?” (Mark 15:34)–not as a moment where others misinterpret Him as supposedly “cut off” from his Father (He *is *God. He can’t not be always one with the Father), but to recall to those around Him the Psalm verse with the exact words and the larger meaning behind it (Psalm 22:2)
But in the example you gave, Hosea 4, the prophet is condemning the Jewish priests he had encountered that had led God’s people into apostasy for not teaching and obeying the Mosaic laws. Here are Hosea’s complete words of the verse here, (NAB translation) “My people perish for want of knowledge! Since you have rejected knowledge, I will reject you from my priesthood; Since you have ignored the law of your God, I will also ignore your sons.”
This verse wasn’t meant for us to be used as a catch-all warning to watch for signs and push our human intellect to know every move that God is going to make based on Scripture. That’s impossible. Christ said so (Matthew 25). It was meant to warn the members of God’s priesthood to follow the rules He set for them, or else.
As far as when you must be “Catholic” before the tribulation hits: You have two resources that answer this definitively: one in history, one in Scripture.
The New Testament itself was authored by the Holy Spirit but compiled and written through many Church fathers—church fathers*Catholic *.
To back that up, use the history of the early Christian church. There were no other “denominations” as we call them. People who practiced worship (who were also the eventual compilers of the Biblical canon) do so in a very Catholic fashion as described in Scripture and history because they *were *Catholic. Christianity did not show fractures until the Orthodox Church split for political reasons in 1054 or so, and then when Protestantism kicked in around 1450.
Before then, to be Christian was to also be Catholic and draw interpretation from many, many knowledgable and learned people, all inspired by the Holy Spirit.
And until 1830 or so when John Nelson Darby showed up, absolutely no one in the world believed in, or become overly obsessed with the Rapture.
So, if one were to properly prepare for the Hour, the time to know the fullness of the truth would be right now. We Catholics are preparing, but we’re not obsessed about since we all try to be prepared every day through worship and the Sacraments.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
You are missing an EXTERNAL PRIVATE TEACHING LENS and BIAS. To us Catholics this is EXTREMELY CLEAR but to the non-Catholic who has bought into this new non-apostolic teaching its also appears vividly clear to them as well in the OPPOSITE sense. It is ALL due to lack of scholarship in scripture AND apostolic context that frames ALL of scripture.
Ever seen that optical illusion of the spinning duck and/or bunny on facebook? Depending on one’s psychological makeup and bias it can appear only as a bunny or a duck (or as both to the ambidextrous minded individual who is objective) and rotating clockwise or counter clockwise. I can’t find an example gif image. But here is a static gif of the same concept.
http://www.opendb.net/media/content/16535.gif
Duck or Rabbit
It walks like a duck and talks like a duck but people swear its a rabbit.
In these sorts of cases, lacking a proper context one sees what one wants to see and it may or may not be based on any sort of reality. This class of problem underscores the absolute need for an apostolic teaching handed down to us to set the context.
James
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Louemma
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I don’t know,I’ll have to ponder over your post for awhile.The reason being I know what the scripture in Hosea was talking about,that’s why I picked that scripture.The Christians as a whole converting to the Catholic belief in order for the tribulation to occur is only if one believes that the Catholic belief is the one true church.Now if the Catholic belief is the one true church then perhaps there is some truth in this belief,however you know as well as I that the Christians all converting to catholic will take a supernatural intervention from the Lord
You know what I say is true,however all things are possible with God and this would be a true miracle,would it not?I also agree some are obsessed with end times but do not forget my friend,some have been called to be watchmen.So what may appear to some as an obsession may only be a calling for others.I myself am interested in prophecy but I feel that to lead one to the Lord,meaning showing someone the way to obtain salvation would be a calling only reserved for a higher calling.
The Rapture however is not a false or new teaching as some would come to believe.I have read on this thread where some claim this teaching is only 200 years old,or that a woman who was a seer foretold of this event.
However Paul speaks of the Catching away in 1 Thess.4
Strange how people react to the use of a word.Now I know Catholics have the knowledge that Demons will and can possess a person.The word demon is not in the Bible.Also the Catholics believe in the Trinity(so do I) except the word Trinity is not in the Bible,the word Bible is not in the Bible but when one says"Do you have a Bible,we all know this means the word of God.So when I say Rapture this is not a new teaching and yes,you will not find the word Rapture in the Bible but what you find is “The Catching Away” and Rapture is only another word we use when referring to the Catching Away.
I will have to get back with you on the Catholics being the One true Church because as of now my belief is the church will not get us to heaven,no matter what church we choose to be in.The condition of the heart is what the Lord searches.So I will say until further research is "We won’t go to Heaven on the Coat Tail of the Church,any church.
The one true Church will be made up of the ones that are the overcomers,that would be in Revelation,the letters to the Churches.Each address to a church is left with saying “The Overcomer”
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CentralFLJames
Guest
My comments about the Minor Chastisement having to occur prior to The Tribulation (or Major Chastisement) are not official Church teaching but rather a come from many dozens of permitted private revelations (canonized saints, blessed) that are consistent with scripture and world events over many centuries. The conversion of all to Catholicism is also part of these private revelations and has no disagreement with scriptures that speak of a single shepherd and a single flock. There is NO concept of religious pluralism in Christendom and we see that Jesus DISPROVED of it since he prayed for unity among the disciples. Yet we know that Judas fell away and many popular secular movements of that time (e.g. Gnostic’s and various heretics) were already in motion in apostolic times to oppose the apostles as they spread the true faith. It is clear then that if a minor chastisement is to occur it is to correct divisions and punish those who are obstinate in disobeying the apostle’s warnings against a legion of gospel interpretations. There is only ONE gospel that is handed down to us (The Church) not many. You also must consider that God NEVER forces man to operate against his own free will. Therefor you must come to see that not all those who hold to opposing faiths to the one true apostolic faith (Catholicism) will willingly convert - that would be more than a miracle that would a change of nature of humanity in mass which is not how God operates - there is no concept of universal salvation by divine fiat. What you can assume in your miracle is that many of the obstinate (as many as 3/4’s of the world population) will “be taken”. Taken where? To where the vultures gather. Those left behind are exactly as mentioned in the beatitudes - the MEEK inherit THE EARTH - they are NOT taken rather the evil and haughty are REMOVED from their presence. Those that are “taken” are those that are condemned just as God removed Pharaoh and his men from the earth when he rescued the Jews.
I would rather not get into deeper essays on the minor chastisement since it does get into private (but approved) revelations and is not likely a thing you will accept until and if you witness it for yourself in your own lifetime. The safer course is to hold to the official teachings of the Church which are absolutely safe to believe. That teaching is that Christians alive during the period of the tribulation will suffer severely and in ways never before seen on the planet. These are not “snatched away” but are at peace that their salvation is at hand without regard to the temporal consequences which have no lasting effect on the soul except in the greater glory they bring those who endure to the end and suffer whatever they are called to suffer for Christ as a testament of faith.
You make some generalized statements that are not true (e.g. demon not being in the bible and we all know what bible means [except the protestants are missing 7 books from OT that their founders did not like and removed]). But I want to get past some of these as tangntial to the topic at hand. You claim that the “snatching away” is not a new teaching but you CAN’T point to a single historical record that proves anything of what you say is true. The Church never taught this – and “The Church” here means Catholic Church since there was NO other “church” (small c) in existence until Orthodox went into schism (but are still part of us as apostolic Christians) and until the so called reformers excommunicated themselves and invented new ecclesial communities with what is now a legion (37,000+) denominational names. Can you point to a single historical document older than 200 years ago that shows anyone of any substance and standing teaching what you believe? No - I don’t think you can. That means its a NEW man made teaching.
It is a shame that you see no value to the Church because The Church is the new Arc for God’s people and if you are not in the Church at the time of your death you will perish in your misconceptions and lack of communion with the body of Christ. It is impossible to love Christ and not love His Church/Bride too – which is rejecting Christ:
"Luke 10:16 Whoever listens to you (The Church ecclesial leadership) listens to me ".
Here is a good reference book: Trial, Tribulation & Triumph Before, During and After Antichrist – Desmond A. Birch
James
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Louemma
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Well thing is I didn’t ask if the Catholics believe in a Rapture so I could argue the view.I simply wondered if you did and all this other(Rabbit Trails) made their way in.I’m not here to argue my veiws because I know what I believe and I’m certainly not here to push those beliefs.Just wanted to know where Catholics stood on The Catching Away.
We could keep the thread going but to what purpose?Now to clarify my purpose,I’m very interested in the Catholic Faith.So to ask your beliefs and then argue them is not my purpose here.Also want to say,even if we disagree we are still brothers in sisters in Christ and so God Bless,have a good day,Merry Christmas and I’ll be moving on with my next question.
btw… I do Love God’s Church and fellowship with other Christians and being part of the Body of Christ.However I also know that the Church is not what gets me to Heaven and if you would have read my post with the understanding that what I was saying is each man is responible for having obtained salvation through Jesus Christ.If one does not have salvation the Church by no means will get this person to heaven.no matter how dedicated one is to the church.God searches the heart and not their church membership.
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JustaServant
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Please post any evidence of the teaching of the ‘rapture’ prior to the 20th century.
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Louemma
Guest
This will be my last post on this subject because it’s apparent that this is not a Catholic teaching and so not to cause confusion I think this subject on The Catching away would be handled better if one would talk it over with their priest.
Read 1 Thess chapter 4:13-18 The word rapture is only a word used when one is speaking of being Caught Up,(The Catching Away),which Paul spoke of well before the 20th century.
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Spencerian
Guest
Pondering is good!
It’s good that you are here; sure, we’re all helping to give you the fullness of the Christian faith as we have been taught over millennia, but converting you isn’t our objective. The Holy Spirit will see to that when (or if–It may have other plans for you) the time comes.
To me, the hardest part about worshipping God–in any faith or capacity–is not to “steer” the Word into what you might think it is, but to let the Word and Spirit guide you to the truth, surrendering to the whole passages and not soundbites.
I particularly pay attention to things when I’m told something I don’t like–the truth has a tendency to offset our mindset, but, regardless, it may still be the truth. It takes a little time to digest, that’s true.
Yep, we Catholics believe in a rapture…just not as Hollywood-epic as some make it out to be.
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