C
- Status
C
ccolley
Guest
L
Louemma
Guest
This is exactly right:thumbsup:Thank you
M
myfavoritmartin
Guest
See Epraim the syrian
L
Louemma
Guest
Or you could pick up the Bible and read in 1 Thess 4 Paul talks of the Catching Away/Rapture.This is not a new teaching.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
For the moment let me not address any symbolic meaning in the fig tree.
One should simply recall that Jesus CURSED the fig tree that did not produce fruit OUT OF SEASON for HIM. This was asking the tree to defy its own nature and to produce fruit for The Lord when HE wanted it - an interesting example of the severity of what the Lord can demand of us and an counter to the often held view of Christ as mild and soft and accepting. Nope - Christ is LORD and He demands to be served. In other words love of God (and Christianity) is a full time 24-7 state of being - not a seasonal thing (it’s certainly not all ho ho ho & Merry Christmas
).At first glance the cursing of the fig tree seems almost inconsequential or just an interesting NT event among many. BUT there is much much more here. Jesus’ cursing of the fig tree is VERY important. This cursing of the fig tree was one of a few secret hidden signs of Messiah that was known only to the Jewish rabbis through UNWRITTEN oral tradition. The oral traditions have Messiah prophesied to give signs that could, depending on the spiritual state Israel is in at the time of Messiah to take a form of a blessing OR a curse. And we know now what Jesus did - He CURSED the fig tree. But He left the root intact (symbolic for a new graft of Gentile Christians so new leaf could rebud & bear fruit). The re-budding of the cursed tree is in fact a sign that precedes Christ’s 2nd return – which some take as a remnant of Israel being reborn into the new Catholic Church to be a necessary sign of the 2nd comming. But in a sense we already have a progression of Jews being converting to Christianity for 2000 years; afterall the apostles were all Jews as was the initial NT Church.
This cursed fig tree as a “sign” of Messiah was not generally known to the apostles or common Jew at the time Jesus performed this sign. For this reason I personally think it is recorded in the NT for the benefit of us in the future who looking back in history could know with more certainty that Jesus truly was The Messiah since this hidden knowledge of the signs of Messiah would come out eventually in post apostolic times. I don’t have a handy reference for this though and am going on my own recollection of prior readings. But note the implications. The secret sign also HAD to be performed for the benefit of the Jewish religious leaders of the time. It was to get their attention and to make it clear that Jesus was not some fake “Messiah”. Only certain few religious knew of this sign.
Some aside thoughts:
*I posit that in Jesus’ time some few of the Jewish religious leaders who heard of Jesus performing this cursed fig-tree sign and of the other signs (curing the blind, raising the dead [e.g Lazarus] etc.) HAD TO KNOW by these signs that Jesus was in fact Messiah. But they must have been very fearful of their own status before man and God in the implications of the cursed fig-tree. Recall too that the Jewish religious leaders did after all give the silver pieces to Judas to betray Christ and set it all in motion – again just as prophesied. It almost looks roll-played.
But few Jewish religious outside of the inner-circle of rabbis knew the significance of this fig-tree sign. So the full information behind the sign was able to be controlled/silenced and its true implications NOT revealed to the Jews et-all at that time. The way it all sequences from here implies to me that the Jewish leaders consciously betrayed not only their office but their own people. This may account for the sudden change of the populace’s sentiments of Jesus changing from a joyous crowd cheering Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem into a crazed-hysterical crowd demanding this popular “prophet of God” be crucified. It seems pretty clear to me somone with enough wherewithal organized the whole social shift in Jewish sentiments to set the crucifixation all in motion (perhaps paid agitators to turn the people into an angry mob). All plausable but in the absence of Jewish recorded statements from the Sanhderin legal proceedings (who struck the record?) it is unprovable conjecture of course…
So I have my own thoughts and insights here on why the legalistic Jews were so very eager to persecute and turn a fellow Jew (Jesus) over to the Romans without letting witnesses come forward at his trial and why they held the trials secretly at night when most of Jesus’ friends could NOT attend. I really think Caiaphas as high priest showed his true hand when he said John 11:49-50 "…You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” I say this “ends justifies the means” line of reasoning clearly demonstrates that some few of the Jewish Sanhedrin KNEW exactly who Jesus was. They knew what that cursed fig-tree meant to them and their nation and their souls. It meant they were rejected by God for having rejected His Son and for letting God’s people become an unrepentant whore/puppet to the Romans and be corrupted at every level. Their only option offered by Jesus was to repent and re-graft back to the same root that Christ was now to give to the Gentiles and to the Jewish converts to “The Way”. Note too that this whole Fig-Tree event happened right AFTER Jesus had the angry confrontation in the temple with the money changers etc. and cleansed the temple. The temple being destroyed in 70 AD (just as Jesus prophesied) was the clear sign that Christianity (and the perfect sacrifice of the mass) was the only thing that God would accept as His religion and His people.
*
Here is a very interesting read by Athanasius in 334 AD concerning the Cursed Fig Tree:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/fathers/view.cfm?recnum=3096
James
L
Louemma
Guest
Thank You James but I never said the Fig tree was Israel,however many,many people think this and it could be but the Bible is very symbolic and I don’t like coming straight out and claiming the fig tree represents Israel for a fact.Reason being prophecy is opened a little at a time and the fig tree is not clear in prophecy as of yet.That’s only my opinion as of right now.However Israel becoming a Nation in 1948 was a significant opening in the prophecies.brb2;6099586:
in the future who looking back in history could know with more certainty that Jesus truly was The Messiah since this hidden knowledge of the signs of Messiah would come out eventually in post apostolic times. I don’t have a handy reference for this though and am going on my own recollection of prior readings. But note the implications. The secret sign also HAD to be performed for the benefit of the Jewish religious leaders of the time. It was to get their attention and to make it clear that Jesus was not some fake “Messiah”. Only certain few religious knew of this siFor the moment let me not address any symbolic meaning in the fig tree.
One should simply recall that Jesus CURSED the fig tree that did not produce fruit OUT OF SEASON for HIM. This was asking the tree to defy its own nature and to produce fruit for The Lord when HE wanted it - an interesting example of the severity of what the Lord can demand of us and an counter to the often held view of Christ as mild and soft and accepting. Nope - Christ is LORD and He demands to be served. In other words love of God (and Christianity) is a full time 24-7 state of being - not a seasonal thing (it’s certainly not all ho ho ho & Merry Christmas
At first glance the cursing of the fig tree seems almost inconsequential or just an interesting NT event among many. BUT there is much much more here. Jesus’ cursing of the fig tree is VERY important. This cursing of the fig tree was one of a few secret hidden signs of Messiah that was known only to the Jewish rabbis through UNWRITTEN oral tradition. The oral traditions have Messiah prophesied to give signs that could, depending on the spiritual state Israel is in at the time of Messiah to take a form of a blessing OR a curse. And we know now what Jesus did - He CURSED the fig tree. But He left the root intact (symbolic for a new graft of Gentile Christians so new leaf could rebud & bear fruit). The re-budding of the cursed tree is in fact a sign that precedes Christ’s 2nd return – which some take as a remnant of Israel being reborn into the new Catholic Church to be a necessary sign of the 2nd comming. But in a sense we already have a progression of Jews being converting to Christianity for 2000 years; afterall the apostles were all Jews as was the initial NT Church.
This cursed fig tree as a “sign” of Messiah was not generally known to the apostles or common Jew at the time Jesus performed this sign. For this reason I personally think it is recorded in the NT for the benefit of us
But few Jewish religious outside of the inner-circle of rabbis knew the significance of this fig-tree sign. So the full information behind the sign was able to be controlled/silenced and its true implications NOT revealed to the Jews et-all at that time. The way it all sequences from here implies to me that the Jewish leaders consciously betrayed not only their office but their own people. This may account for the sudden change of the populace’s sentiments of Jesus changing from a joyous crowd cheering Jesus’ entry into Jerusalem into a crazed-hysterical crowd demanding this popular “prophet of God” be crucified. It seems pretty clear to me somone with enough wherewithal organized the whole social shift in Jewish sentiments to set the crucifixation all in motion (perhaps paid agitators to turn the people into an angry mob). All plausable but in the absence of Jewish recorded statements from the Sanhderin legal proceedings (who struck the record?) it is unprovable conjecture of course…
So I have my own thoughts and insights here on why the legalistic Jews were so very eager to persecute and turn a fellow Jew (Jesus) over to the Romans without letting witnesses come forward at his trial and why they held the trials secretly at night when most of Jesus’ friends could attend. I really think Caiaphas as high priest showed his true hand when he said John 11:49-50 "…You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” I say this “ends justifies the means” line of reasoning clearly demonstrates that some few of the Jewish Sanhedrin KNEW exactly who Jesus was. They knew what that cursed fig-tree meant to them and their nation and their souls. It meant they were rejected by God for having rejected His Son and for letting God’s people become an unrepentant whore/puppet to the Romans and be corrupted at every level. Their only option offered by Jesus was to repent and re-graft back to the same root that Christ was now to give to the Gentiles and to the Jewish converts to “The Way”. Note too that this whole Fig-Tree event happened right AFTER Jesus had the angry confrontation in the temple with the money changers etc. and cleansed the temple. The temple being destroyed in 70 AD (just as Jesus prophesied) was the clear sign that Christianity (and the perfect sacrifice of the mass) was the only thing that God would accept as His religion and His people.
[/indent]
Here is a very interesting read by Athanasius in 334 AD concerning the Cursed Fig Tree:
catholicculture.org/culture/library/fathers/view.cfm?recnum=3096
James
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Personally I do not think that the new SECULAR country CALLED “Israel” becoming a nation in 1948 has ANYTHING whatsoever to do with prophecy and “The Rapture”. There are many ultra-orthodox Jews who live in Israel who insist that their own nation is illegitimate and that they are still living under divine wrath for breaking the covenants. These orthodox “Jews” see the modern country of "Israel"as a “bogus” construct made for nothing but world-power political expediency. And frankly, I really don’t think even the Jews know what it means to be called “a Jew” anymore.
So I tend to think that the modern nation of Israel is irrelevant to prophecy and what transpires now is all about The Catholic Church and her persecution and sufferings. I think “some” who call themselves Jews (world wide) will convert to Catholicism toward the last days – but so will other peoples. I hold that The New Jerusalem of Revelation is the perfected Catholic Church and that a remnant of Jews world-wide will convert in the end.
James
L
Louemma
Guest
God still has a covenant with Israel and I have found in the scriptures that Israel being gathered together is very significant.Perhaps all converting to Catholic is the opinion of some but some hold the view that the Jews in the last days will convert to Christianity,meaning accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior which they have not done thus far.
Let us not forget,the Gentiles have only been grafted in for a season and then God will turn back to Israel.So we know the Jews have been blinded but one for to think the Jews are irrelevant to prophecy is in error.
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
I didn’t say that the Jews as a people were irrelevant. What I said is that the re-establishment of the modern state of Israel is probably not relevant to end-times prophecy.God still has a covenant with Israel and I have found in the scriptures that Israel being gathered together is very significant.Perhaps all converting to Catholic is the opinion of some but some hold the view that the Jews in the last days will convert to Christianity,meaning accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior which they have not done thus far.
Let us not forget,the Gentiles have only been grafted in for a season and then God will turn back to Israel.So we know the Jews have been blinded but one for to think the Jews are irrelevant to prophecy is in error.
The modern state of Israel and its occupants retain little or no essential character of what it means to be a “Jew” except in some patriotic and ethnic sense. Culturally and religiously these people are highly divided and the state of Israel is a SECULAR state - not a religious state with any recognized religious authority that speaks for all.
Jews themselves laugh (and cry) at the Evangelical “christians” who insist on repatriating Jews from around the world with free airline tickets just to satisfy what they imagine are the necessary formula for Christ’s 2nd comming. The Jews know precisely what the fundamentalist believe - the Jews lament the Christian fundamentalists who can’t wait for Israel to be restored to its fullness so the streets of Israel will flow knee-high with the blood of Jews so Christ can come. The error of the fundamentalist bible interpretation of end times is effecting world history now and the Jews are not at all comfortable with the idea of being “helped” and sped toward their death by the fundamentalists just so they can be “raptured away”.
As we know, Jews have for the most part officially called Christ an impostor and a false messiah. They have even gone so far as to say that he is the false messiah prophesied to come and “stumble” and not complete his task while alive – to them proof that he is not messiah who they hold must do it all in his lifetime. Yet these are the same people who followed a number of post-Christian false messiahs to their own destruction in the years after Christ and have a history for being wrong in that regard alone.
Personally, as I get more educated on the histories, it is hard for me to consider Israel legitimate while they live in the shadow of the Muslim Dome of the Rock on Temple Mount (where the Jewish Temple is alleged to have stood and its most holy ground). How do Jews make a claim to having ownership of a land they can’t even govern or control what buildings get to stand in their most holy places in their own country? Of course the Jews might claim they let the Muslim mosque stand as a military deterrent to Muslim rocket attacks knowing it would be destroyed ostensibly by enemy fire at the instant a military rocket attack was launched.
Sadly, in a certain real sense the Jews living in the modern secular state of Israel just occupy land in a nation that has the old biblical names of cities.
James
O
onenow1
Guest
Some believe that Jesus was not meaning the generation that was right there with him,no some believe he meant the generation in which these things start taking place.
Like Israel becoming a nation,some think this was a fulfillment in prophecies,hence the beginning of signs.
I will admit this is a part of scripture that I am still searching through.
I shall add to your confusion,I believe it is a distinct possibilty Jesus was referring to the verses below also ;And these events indeed have happened .
That’s why in post #157 I said Jesus does not lie and He was referring to His crucifixion. If this is the case that generation has passed away. Either way the rapture trap make’s for great fictional story but nothing more. Tribulation will come for all of us and has right down through history. Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again !
Matt. 27: 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
47 And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “This man is calling Eli’jah.”
48 And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink.
49 But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Eli’jah will come to save him.”
50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split;
52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
And: Luke 21: 28,Now when these things begin to take place, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
Quote=onenow1, As Jesus was speaking our redemption was drawing near.
Peace and God Bless
onenow1
L
Louemma
Guest
onenow1:
It is really sad that there are those who call the Catching away …The Rapture Trap or fictional.Clearly those who make this statement don’t realize that this is spoken of in the scriptures.I shall add to your confusion,
That’s why in post #157 I said Jesus does not lie and He was referring to His crucifixion. If this is the case that generation has passed away. Either way the rapture trap make’s for great fictional story but nothing more. Tribulation will come for all of us and has right down through history. Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again !
Matt. 27: 45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour.
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, la’ma sabach-tha’ni?” that is, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
47 And some of the bystanders hearing it said, “This man is calling Eli’jah.”
48 And one of them at once ran and took a sponge, filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave it to him to drink.
49 But the others said, “Wait, let us see whether Eli’jah will come to save him.”
50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit.
51 And behold, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom; and the earth shook, and the rocks were split;
52 the tombs also were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,
53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
And: Luke 21: 28,Now when these things begin to take place, look up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
Quote=onenow1, As Jesus was speaking our redemption was drawing near.
Peace and God Bless
onenow1
In regards to the scripture you posted above,you do realize before the cross,the spirit of man went down into the heart of the earth(Luke 16:19-31 See story of The Rich Man and Lazarus)
Jesus went down into the heart of the earth and he now holds the keys of Death and Hell(See Revelation 1:18)
When Jesus went down into the heart of the earth,he preached to those imprisoned there by death and hell(See 1 Peter 3:18-19)
And this friend is why those were seen coming out of their tombs and walking the streets of Jerusalem.(See Matt.27:53)
The spirit of a child of God no longer goes down into the heart of the Earth but goes up into the third Heavens(See 2 Cor 12:2 )
and this place is called Paradise (See Luke 23:43 )
So all the above scripture you posted,yes these events indeed did happen but not as to what your referring as the end time events but rather the scripture posted above is about when Jesus conquered death and he now holds the keys of Death and Hell which is what the above scripture you posted is really about and these verses have nothing to do with The Catching Away spoken of by Paul in 1 Thess 4.
The Catching Away is an event still to come
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
onenow1;6102577:
Leslie, the Rapture and popularly portrayed in books and movies like the “Left Behind” Series is a false teaching of Protestantism.It is really sad that there are those who call the Catching away …The Rapture Trap or fictional.Clearly those who make this statement don’t realize that this is spoken of in the scriptures.
In regards to the scripture you posted above,you do realize before the cross,the spirit of man went down into the heart of the earth(Luke 16:19-31 See story of The Rich Man and Lazarus)
Jesus went down into the heart of the earth and he now holds the keys of Death and Hell(See Revelation 1:18)
When Jesus went down into the heart of the earth,he preached to those imprisoned there by death and hell(See 1 Peter 3:18-19)
And this friend is why those were seen coming out of their tombs and walking the streets of Jerusalem.(See Matt.27:53)
The spirit of a child of God no longer goes down into the heart of the Earth but goes up into the third Heavens(See 2 Cor 12:2 )
and this place is called Paradise (See Luke 23:43 )
So all the above scripture you posted,yes these events indeed did happen but not as to what your referring as the end time events but rather the scripture posted above is about when Jesus conquered death and he now holds the keys of Death and Hell which is what the above scripture you posted is really about and these verses have nothing to do with The Catching Away spoken of by Paul in 1 Thess 4.
The Catching Away is an event still to come
Jesus will return ONE TIME (not two), and those who are alive at that time will be caught up to be with him. However, there will not be a period in which some have been raptured while everyone else is left behind to live out the period of tribulation before Christ’s final return. This is pure fiction.
O
onenow1
Guest
onenow1;6102577:
You are clearly entitled to your opinion! I did not refer them as an end of time event. I reffered to them as a time of redemption on the cross.It is really sad that there are those who call the Catching away …The Rapture Trap or fictional.Clearly those who make this statement don’t realize that this is spoken of in the scriptures.
In regards to the scripture you posted above,you do realize before the cross,the spirit of man went down into the heart of the earth(Luke 16:19-31 See story of The Rich Man and Lazarus)
Jesus went down into the heart of the earth and he now holds the keys of Death and Hell(See Revelation 1:18)
When Jesus went down into the heart of the earth,he preached to those imprisoned there by death and hell(See 1 Peter 3:18-19)
And this friend is why those were seen coming out of their tombs and walking the streets of Jerusalem.(See Matt.27:53)
The spirit of a child of God no longer goes down into the heart of the Earth but goes up into the third Heavens(See 2 Cor 12:2 )
and this place is called Paradise (See Luke 23:43 )
So all the above scripture you posted,yes these events indeed did happen but not as to what your referring as the end time events but rather the scripture posted above is about when Jesus conquered death and he now holds the keys of Death and Hell which is what the above scripture you posted is really about and these verses have nothing to do with The Catching Away spoken of by Paul in 1 Thess 4.
The Catching Away is an event still to come
Did you read below post 157 and its meaning ,that Christ will come again key phraise,so in this sense there will be a rapture in the sense at end of time of God’s final judgement.
That’s why in post #157 I said Jesus does not lie and He was referring to His crucifixion. If this is the case that generation has passed away. Either way the rapture trap make’s for great fictional story but nothing more. Tribulation will come for all of us and has right down through history.Christ has died,Christ is risen, Christ will come again
God Bless,onenow1
S
sauce
Guest
What does it mean to meet Jesus in the air?
We Catholics can meet and receive Jesus daily in the Eucharist. This is a mystery.
In a sense, he made sure he never left.
I sometimes think that non-Catholics kind of gloss over this. Also, how many dimensions are we incorporating and drawing from? There are more than 4.
If we have no “awareness” or are severely hampered spiritually, then imaging the rapture would naturally run into some problems. If it is that easy to describe just using scripture, then all the arguing or discussion would be easier to swallow. But it remains elusive.
I think Central Florida James has a pretty strong handle on it. Most all his posts are level headed and insightful. And they still leave room for even more discovery.
We Catholics can meet and receive Jesus daily in the Eucharist. This is a mystery.
In a sense, he made sure he never left.
I sometimes think that non-Catholics kind of gloss over this. Also, how many dimensions are we incorporating and drawing from? There are more than 4.
If we have no “awareness” or are severely hampered spiritually, then imaging the rapture would naturally run into some problems. If it is that easy to describe just using scripture, then all the arguing or discussion would be easier to swallow. But it remains elusive.
I think Central Florida James has a pretty strong handle on it. Most all his posts are level headed and insightful. And they still leave room for even more discovery.
L
Lev23
Guest
God in Ezekiel 36 prophesizes that the whole house of Israel will be brought back into the land of Israel in unbelief so he can cleanse them. They are to understand that none of them should think they deserve this, but God will do it for the sake of His holy name, which the people profaned among the nations. Before this the land of Israel was prophesized to, so that the land will respond to the people of Israel coming back to live. Today, we can see that the land is flourishing with the Jew living on it. We also know that the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy (Revelation 19:10) , so the peoples ingathering and cleansing is in no way fulfilled at the moment. We also see Jerusalem the main obstacle for the nations desire for peace in the middle east.
Some find it hard to look at the modern nation of Israel and link it to end-times prophecy. But the current regathering of people to the land of Israel in unbelief, later to be fully cleansed(by Jesus Christ), can easily be recognized to prophecy.
The land is a important part of the prophecy that should not be overlooked.
**Jeremiah 16:14-15
“However, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.
Jeremiah 23:7-8
“So then, the days are coming,” declares the LORD, “when people will no longer say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,’ but they will say, ‘As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the descendants of Israel up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.’ Then they will live in their own land.”**
Both the land and hardened Israel will be fully restored through Jesus Christ.
The remnant of Jews, who you speak of in your last sentence, are in the Church now.
L
Lev23
Guest
Again, forget who is running the place, but realize there is currently a great ingathering of Jews into the land of Israel today. It doesn’t matter how religious or secular the Jew is, they are all being regathered in hardness to the gospel of Jesus Christ. But the restoration of the land and people of Israel will be through Jesus Christ.I didn’t say that the Jews as a people were irrelevant. What I said is that the re-establishment of the modern state of Israel is probably not relevant to end-times prophecy.
The modern state of Israel and its occupants retain little or no essential character of what it means to be a “Jew” except in some patriotic and ethnic sense. Culturally and religiously these people are highly divided and the state of Israel is a SECULAR state - not a religious state with any recognized religious authority that speaks for all.
Jews themselves laugh (and cry) at the Evangelical “christians” who insist on repatriating Jews from around the world with free airline tickets just to satisfy what they imagine are the necessary formula for Christ’s 2nd comming. The Jews know precisely what the fundamentalist believe - the Jews lament the Christian fundamentalists who can’t wait for Israel to be restored to its fullness so the streets of Israel will flow knee-high with the blood of Jews so Christ can come. The error of the fundamentalist bible interpretation of end times is effecting world history now and the Jews are not at all comfortable with the idea of being “helped” and sped toward their death by the fundamentalists just so they can be “raptured away”.
As we know, Jews have for the most part officially called Christ an impostor and a false messiah. They have even gone so far as to say that he is the false messiah prophesied to come and “stumble” and not complete his task while alive – to them proof that he is not messiah who they hold must do it all in his lifetime. Yet these are the same people who followed a number of post-Christian false messiahs to their own destruction in the years after Christ and have a history for being wrong in that regard alone.
Personally, as I get more educated on the histories, it is hard for me to consider Israel legitimate while they live in the shadow of the Muslim Dome of the Rock on Temple Mount (where the Jewish Temple is alleged to have stood and its most holy ground). How do Jews make a claim to having ownership of a land they can’t even govern or control what buildings get to stand in their most holy places in their own country? Of course the Jews might claim they let the Muslim mosque stand as a military deterrent to Muslim rocket attacks knowing it would be destroyed ostensibly by enemy fire at the instant a military rocket attack was launched.
Sadly, in a certain real sense the Jews living in the modern secular state of Israel just occupy land in a nation that has the old biblical names of cities.
James
Meanwhile, there have been many, many, many Jews who have gractiously accepted paid airline tickets(yes, some by Christians) to come to the land of Israel because of persecution in the nations they were dispersed in. It is just too bad some see this kind act of charity as rushing prophecy or rushing dispersed Jews to their deaths, which by the way, is the one of the most absurd accusations I have ever heard.
B
brb2
Guest
Very insightful ECF … Simple, yet profound in its need of application.
You are a resource, few can match. Perfect balance of faith & reason. And, very good with your prose too. A superbly educated, insightful, resourceful Catholic … that Athanasius would be proud to ‘sponsor’ for our modern 21st century. Do you pray to Athanasius … to hone your scriptural insights & determined principles ?
R
ryanoneil
Guest
That is the basic idea!I understand that to be absent from the body is present with the Lord.I will agree upon death our body returns to dust and our spirit returns to God who gave it.So I can see how you think that upon death,when the spirits return to God that this could be the first Resurrection.
However
So the word resurrected means restored,so in a since the death of a child of God and the spirit no longer going down but up could be a resurrection of the spirit.The problem I have is the soul of man has never died even before the cross.So the spirit of man being resurrected up into Heaven is what you believe to be the first resurrection.I see how this might be.
R
ryanoneil
Guest
It is the same image of the throne room from earlier after everyone gets their marks. The beast is Nero Ceasar. He claimed to be God and he demanded emperor worship. Those who worshiped him got the mark (which is spiritual by the way, not physical). They worshiped a false God in order to not be persecuted but they gave up eternal life. Those who would not worship the beast recieved God’s mark (not physical) which marked them for death. Even though died physically they gained eternal life for remaining faithful to the true God.Thank You I see my mistake
So what I was saying would sound as if I’m adding scripture,so let me fix the problem
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones,and they sat upon them,and judgement was given unto them;and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the word of God,and which had not worshipped the beast,neither his image,nether had received his mark upon their foreheads or in their hands,and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.This is the first resurrection.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection,on such the second death hath no power,but they shall be priests of God and of Christ,and shall reign with him a thousand years.
So is this the 24 elders in heaven?Because if you say yes, Revelation 20:4 then who was the beast and when did the mark take place and when were people beheaded that did not take the mark of the beast on their forehead or in their hands?
The larger time frame of Revelation is from the acension of Jesus until the Old Covenant age ended with the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. This is the one generation of covenantal transition mentioned in (Mt 24:34). The shorter time frame is the years leading up to and including the Jewish-Roman war.
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