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ryanoneil
Guest
If somebody believes that they are on the fringe. We don’t receive a glorified body until the end of time.
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Louemma
Guest
There are some who believed that Nero was the beast and these same folks believe The Day of the Lord was 70 Ad and they also think everyone since then gets their glorified body as they enter Paradise.Of course we know that the point of the resurrection is to receive our glorified bodies and we know that the resurrection has not happened yet.
I just don’t see that part of Revelation as already being full filled.Do you know that according to the Roman history,Nero is not the one who sent John to Patmos because Nero died before the Temple was ever Destroyed.I believe Nero died in 66 or 68 AD and The book of Revelation has been placed as being wrote as late as 96AD.
If this is true then Nero is not your man.
Remember Nebacunezzars’s statue,remember the legs of Iron represents Rome but the toes represents a mixture of Iron and Clay?
So yes Rome fell but at the end(The Toes of Iron and Clay) will be the last kingdom.
What kingdom do you suppose Daniel’s Prophecy represents as far as the mixture of Iron and clay?
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onenow1
Guest
I kind’a remember Jesus making a new covenant in His Blood and the accomplishment of it from incarnation to the cross. The promised land was seen by Moses and entered by Joshua all has been accomplished. Jesus conqured death. This is our redemption, and salvation if we are obedient to the new covenant in His Blood, unlike the Israelites who broke the covenant numeious times.
Joshua 1:
2 "Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land which I am giving to them, to the people of Israel.
3 Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given to you, as I promised to Moses.
Christ will come again for all.
Peace,God Bless onenow1
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Louemma
Guest
You are right,however God is still in a covenant with Abraham’s seed and the Jews are still the Apple of God’s eye.I kind’a remember Jesus making a new covenant in His Blood and the accomplishment of it from incarnation to the cross. The promised land was seen by Moses and entered by Joshua all has been accomplished. Jesus conqured death. This is our redemption, and salvation if we are obedient to the new covenant in His Blood, unlike the Israelites who broke the covenant numeious times.
Joshua 1:
2 "Moses my servant is dead; now therefore arise, go over this Jordan, you and all this people, into the land which I am giving to them, to the people of Israel.
3 Every place that the sole of your foot will tread upon I have given to you, as I promised to Moses.
Christ will come again for all.
Peace,God Bless onenow1
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onenow1
Guest
Louemma;6108817Friend you border line blasphemy when you call the things of God said:Am I denying a second coming? I thik not. You are espousing a third coming.
God Bless
onenow1
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onenow1
Guest
And you and I and a whole lot of folks walking the earth may be a descendants.
Peacr, onenow1
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Louemma
Guest
You call the catching away,fortune telling.Am I denying a second coming? I thik not. You are espousing a third coming.
God Bless
onenow1
I am not espousing a third coming I’m espousing a second coming.btw The second coming is the catching away
Just because there could be a time lapse in between,such as the bride and groom going off to the secret chamber but as someone pointed out in another post our way of looking at time is not the same way with God.A thousand years here is but a day with the Lord.Where do you get the ideal that I’m speaking of a third coming anyhow?
Anyone that knows their Bible would know there is not anything in there about a third coming.However there will be a new earth
Did you know this?
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Louemma
Guest
Are you Jewish?Because we are speaking of the descendants through Jacob(Israel) because the blood line of the covenant runs through the descendants of Jacob.And you and I and a whole lot of folks walking the earth may be a descendants.
Peacr, onenow1
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onenow1
Guest
I do not call the second coming fortune telling it will happen just not the way you think. I call the erroneous, rendering of scripture and the so called left behind books fortune telling.You call the catching away,fortune telling.
I am not espousing a third coming I’m espousing a second coming.btw The second coming is the catching away
Pure conjecture on the secret chamber. The Lord is reigning right now. he has conqured death.
Veiled in the secret chamber.
In Revelation 20:1–3, 7–8, we read, “Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years were ended. After that he must be loosed for a little while. . . . And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be loosed from his prison and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth.” From: Catholic AnswersHowever there will be a new earth
A new creation Jesus was a very good scientist he explained a little how He created the universe in the OT,and in the NT explains how it will come to an end; and there will be a new heaven and a and a new earth. We are now in the 1000yrs look at the state of affaies in the world today. That’s my opinion anyway.:yup:
Peace,and God bless
onenow1
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onenow1
Guest
Some where along the line it’s possible.
The truth be known I don’t know who my paternal dad is.
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brb2
Guest
The “Catching Away” or “Rapture” is intellectually one of the most feeble and outlandish arguments that I have ever encountered in studying scripture and tradition…it is an invented idea that didn’t come into existence until very recently…and furthermore, it doesn’t matter…I really get tired of listening to people predict the end of the world or the rapture,
Louemma;6102711:
Christ’s message on the Rapture was not lost upon the first disciples. They expected his eminent return.
Christ taught it for a reason. Many find it comforting/reassuring. Many have been fearful of being caught ‘left behind’ … and become converts as consequence.
Just look at all the present day interest in END of WORLD prophesy by secular man. The Aztec Calendar prediction of chaos in 2012 [Hollywood Movie soon to come out], some Reformed Protestant groups claiming scriptures call for Rapture on May 21, 2011.
One day someone’s prediction will be right.
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ryanoneil
Guest
Inclusion in the New Covenant, which is the fulfillment of all previous covenants, is not dependant on blood lines. The descendant is Jesus, in whom God fulfilled His promise to Abraham - that in his descendants all peoples will be blessed.
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end." (Luke 1:32-33)
These verses don’t speak of blood line.
**For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Mt 12:50)
So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones and members of the household of God (Eph 2:19)
When you read this you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, which was not made known to human beings in other generations as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit, that the Gentiles are coheirs, members of the same body, and copartners in the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. (Eph 3:4-6)
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free person, there is not male and female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendant, heirs according to the promise. (Gal 3:27-28)**
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Clearly, I have been spending too much time debating someone else in another thread!I am Louemma
I thought we were in agreement previously. I did not say that the Second Coming of Christ is fictional. There will be a second coming, but not a third. Those who are alive at the time of His Second, and final, coming will be caught up.
What is fictional is the idea that some will be raptured (with planes crashing, cars suddenly “unmanned” blah, blah, blah), while others are “Left Behind”.If you’ve read the “Left Behind” series (I read them all as fiction and not as good spiritual reading), then you know what I’m talking about.
Hopefully, you can now see that I agree with you regarding one more return of Jesus - an event rightfully termed the Second Coming.
OTOH, if it is your opinion that there will be a “left behind” scenario, then I would say that this is not in agreement with Catholic (or biblical) teaching.
Happily, I think that you do not believe this. If you do, please correct me.
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WestonGrant
Guest
Dr. Sungenis has written some excellant books, but he’s got a problem with Jews. You won’t find his version on the conversion of the Jews in the Fathers, saints, or Popes. Some Jews are converting now but the Bible, Fathers, saints and popes saw them as having a special conversion too.
Here’s a long list of quotes about the conversion of the Jews
sungenisandthejews.com/Addenda_and_Bio.html
But I don’t really remember anything from the Fathers or popes on the Rapture. I don’t really think it makes sense but I don’t remember seeing much of anything on it. David Currie wrote a book about it and he’s great all around so you could read that. If there’s something from the Fathers he’ll have it.
amazon.com/Rapture-End-Times-Error-Leaves-Behind/dp/1928832725/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262190478&sr=8-1
I found this one at Amazon too but I’ve never read it.
amazon.com/Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response-Times/dp/0965922898/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262190520&sr=1-2
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ryanoneil
Guest
Think in terms of prefigurement. The initial fulfillment of the day of the Lord is not complete in the grand sense. It is complete in terms of the termination of the Old Covenant age as the New Covenant had already started. This prefigures or points to the termination of the entire universe as the New Covenant age gives way to the New Creation and eternity. Are you familiar with prefigurement?
Maybe I should have asked what you mean by a glorified body. When I think of glorified body I think of the resurrected body spoken of here.
**And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day." (John 6:39-40)
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. (John 6:44)
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. (John 6:54)
Martha said to him, “I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus told her, “I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” (John 11:24-26)
Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. (1 Thes 4:15-17)**
The only part in all these verses speaking about the first resurrection of Rev 20:4 is the large type in John 11. Our soul seperates from our body (the body decays) and goes to heaven, where we wait to be reunited with our glorified body. We recieve are glorified body on the “last day” when Christ returns. On the last day we enter eternity and we are all raised for final judgment at the white throne.
Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation. (John 5:28-29)
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WestonGrant
Guest
Dr. Sungenis has written some excellant books, but he’s got a problem with Jews. You won’t find his version on the conversion of the Jews in the Fathers, saints, or Popes. Some Jews are converting now but the Bible, Fathers, saints and popes saw them as having a special conversion too.
Here’s a long list of quotes about the conversion of the Jews
sungenisandthejews.com/Addenda_and_Bio.html
But I don’t really remember much of anything from the Fathers or popes on the Rapture. I don’t really think it makes sense but I don’t remember seeing much of anything on it. The LaHaye books on being Left Behind seem far-fetched. I mean, come on.
David Currie wrote a book about the raptrue and he’s great all around so that would be a good read. If there’s something from the Fathers he’ll definately have it.
amazon.com/Rapture-End-Times-Error-Leaves-Behind/dp/1928832725/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262190478&sr=8-1
I found this one at Amazon too but I’ve never read it.
amazon.com/Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response-Times/dp/0965922898/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262190520&sr=1-2
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ryanoneil
Guest
Here is an example of prefigurement.
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire, and the earth and everything done on it will be found out. Since everything is to be dissolved in this way, what sort of persons ought (you) to be, conducting yourselves in holiness and devotion, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved in flames and the elements melted by fire. But according to his promise we await new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. (2 Pet 3:10-13)
Clearly this speaks of the day of the Lord. He comes, the universe is destroyed, and it is made anew. This has not happened in the fullest sense, but the prefigurement has. Jesus said these world-shaking events would occur soon after his Ascension when he said
Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. (Mt 24:34)
Was Jesus mistaken? No He was not! In the context of ancient Judaism, Jesus’ entire discourse is an extension of his comments about the Temple.
Jesus left the temple area and was going away, when his disciples approached him to point out the temple buildings. He said to them in reply, “You see all these things, do you not? Amen, I say to you, there will not be left here a stone upon another stone that will not be thrown down.” As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples approached him privately and said, “Tell us, when will this happen, and what sign will there be of your coming, and of the end of the age?” (Mt 24:1-3)
He is talking about the Romans destroying Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 A.D., and the death of more than 1 million Jews. The prefigurement of this is what happened when God allowed the Temple to be destroyed in 586 B.C. as punishment for Israel’s sins.
On the seventh day of the fifth month (this was in the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon), Nebuzaradan, captain of the bodyguard, came to Jerusalem as the representative of the king of Babylon. He burned the house of the LORD, the palace of the king, and all the houses of Jerusalem; every large building was destroyed by fire. Then the Chaldean troops who were with the captain of the guard tore down the walls that surrounded Jerusalem. (2 Kings 25:8-10)
From this perspective Jesus words came to pass within the lifetime of his contemporaries. What about all the terminology though? The Israelites regarded the Temple as a miniature replica of the world- an architectural model of the universe fashioned by God. This Temple theology is found all over the OT. Here are a few examples.
**He built his shrine like the heavens, like the earth which he founded forever. (Ps 78:69)
In the year King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord seated on a high and lofty throne, with the train of his garment filling the temple. Seraphim were stationed above; each of them had six wings: with two they veiled their faces, with two they veiled their feet, and with two they hovered aloft. “Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts!” they cried one to the other. “All the earth is filled with his glory!” (Isa 6:1-3)**
Conversely, the universe and world itself is a macrotemple, where God dwells with his people.
**I have built heaven, my upper chamber, and established my vault over the earth; I summon the waters of the sea and pour them upon the surface of the earth, I, the LORD by name. (Amos 9:6)
Where were you when I founded the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. Who determined its size; do you know? Who stretched out the measuring line for it? Into what were its pedestals sunk, and who laid the cornerstone (Job 38:4-6)**
So, in the microtemple sense all has been fulfilled. Christ did not physically come but His Judgment did. This prefigures the destruction of the universe, God’s macrotemple, and the judgment of all nations by Christ. So Mt 24-25 is initiallly fulfilled in the first century as he said, but imbedded in His words are the spiritual truths that point forward to his Second Coming in glory and the end of the visible world. The same can be said about the book of Revelation.
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CentralFLJames
Guest
Thanks for the information. The church teaches that after the fullness of the Gentiles is reached the Jews would be converted. But the pragmatic difficulty I have here is in knowing “what” constitutes a Jew anymore? What is a Jew without a temple? How does humanity give witness to this prophecy or make sence of it pragmatically?
Is being “a Jew” a simple matter of a specific family ethnic blood line viz Abraham or King David in one single tribe? What about the bloodlines of the sects of Jews like the Samaritans?. What about the Jews that are all highly intermarried now? Is it a matter of 51% Jewish bloodline? Or is it common theological belief? But there are many Jewish factions. There are also many non-bloodline Gentile converts to Judaism – are these “Jews”? And there are of course many ethnic Jews who are secularized and completely divorced now from anything remotely “Jewish” in their practices – except for maybe breaking glasses or light bulbs wrapped in a towel at “Jewish” weddings then exclaiming “mazel tov” (or “good-luck” – not exactly a prayer) or using Kosher salt on their margarita glass rims. Or is a “Jew” somone who lives in the new secular state of Israel irrespective of their beliefs or values?
I am sure God knows who He means by “Jews” in scripture but for us humans I don’t think it really helps us with respect to forecasting the eschatology. The only benefit I see here is knowing that there is a “Universal” or “Catholic” faith that is inclusive of all God’s people that HE recognizes.
James
Is being “a Jew” a simple matter of a specific family ethnic blood line viz Abraham or King David in one single tribe? What about the bloodlines of the sects of Jews like the Samaritans?. What about the Jews that are all highly intermarried now? Is it a matter of 51% Jewish bloodline? Or is it common theological belief? But there are many Jewish factions. There are also many non-bloodline Gentile converts to Judaism – are these “Jews”? And there are of course many ethnic Jews who are secularized and completely divorced now from anything remotely “Jewish” in their practices – except for maybe breaking glasses or light bulbs wrapped in a towel at “Jewish” weddings then exclaiming “mazel tov” (or “good-luck” – not exactly a prayer) or using Kosher salt on their margarita glass rims
. Or is a “Jew” somone who lives in the new secular state of Israel irrespective of their beliefs or values?I am sure God knows who He means by “Jews” in scripture but for us humans I don’t think it really helps us with respect to forecasting the eschatology. The only benefit I see here is knowing that there is a “Universal” or “Catholic” faith that is inclusive of all God’s people that HE recognizes.
James
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ryanoneil
Guest
Here is another example.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Mt 5:17-18)
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place." (Mt 5:17-18)
C
CentralFLJames
Guest
Thanks for the information. The church teaches that after the fullness of the Gentiles is reached the Jews would be converted. But the pragmatic difficulty I have here is in knowing “what” constitutes a Jew anymore? What is a Jew without a temple? How does humanity give witness to this prophecy or make sence of it pragmatically?Dr. Sungenis has written some excellant books, but he’s got a problem with Jews. You won’t find his version on the conversion of the Jews in the Fathers, saints, or Popes. Some Jews are converting now but the Bible, Fathers, saints and popes saw them as having a special conversion too.
Here’s a long list of quotes about the conversion of the Jews
sungenisandthejews.com/Addenda_and_Bio.html
But I don’t really remember much of anything from the Fathers or popes on the Rapture. I don’t really think it makes sense but I don’t remember seeing much of anything on it. The LaHaye books on being Left Behind seem far-fetched. I mean, come on.
David Currie wrote a book about the raptrue and he’s great all around so that would be a good read. If there’s something from the Fathers he’ll definately have it.
amazon.com/Rapture-End-Times-Error-Leaves-Behind/dp/1928832725/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262190478&sr=8-1
I found this one at Amazon too but I’ve never read it.
amazon.com/Rapture-Trap-Catholic-Response-Times/dp/0965922898/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1262190520&sr=1-2
Is being “a Jew” a simple matter of a specific family ethnic blood line viz Abraham or King David in one single tribe? What about the bloodlines of the sects of Jews like the Samaritans?. What about the Jews that are all highly intermarried now? Is it a matter of 51% Jewish bloodline? Or is it common theological belief? But there are many Jewish factions. There are also many non-bloodline Gentile converts to Judaism – are these “Jews”? And there are of course many ethnic Jews who are secularized and completely divorced now from anything remotely “Jewish” in their practices – except for maybe breaking glasses or light bulbs wrapped in a towel at “Jewish” weddings then exclaiming “mazel tov” (or “good-luck” – not exactly a prayer) or using Kosher salt on their margarita glass rims . Or is a “Jew” somone who lives in the new secular state of Israel irrespective of their beliefs or values?
I am sure God knows who He means by “Jews” in scripture but for us humans I don’t think it really helps us with respect to forecasting the eschatology. The only benefit I see here is knowing that there is a “Universal” or “Catholic” faith that is inclusive of all God’s people that HE recognizes.
James
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