The RCC facade

[Ani_Ibi]

But the merry go round will start up again illogically claiming " It is not Doctrinal disunity, it is the millions of Catholics who live by their own Doctrine" Although were these millions of Catholics are and how he came up with that number is anyones guess.

Oh gosh, Atemi provides us with a valuable service. He allows us to repeat over and over again the truth taught by the Catholic Church for any number of lurkers on these threads. His theories have so many holes in them that people are persuaded often just in reaction (horror and disbelief) against what he says.

We just have to sit here and post what we know. He, on the other hand, has to think up new and amazing ways to relanguage Catholic truth so that it can no longer be recognized as Catholic. That’s a hard job. Mind you, there are lots of websites out there who have already done the legwork.

 

[Nordar]

Oh gosh, Atemi provides us with a valuable service. He allows us to repeat over and over again the truth taught by the Catholic Church for any number of lurkers on these threads. His theories have so many holes in them that people are persuaded often just in reaction (horror and disbelief) against what he says.

We just have to sit here and post what we know. He, on the other hand, has to think up new and amazing ways to relanguage Catholic truth so that it can no longer be recognized as Catholic. That’s a hard job. Mind you, there are lots of websites out there who have already done the legwork.

Agree!
That is because I really do find myself smiling at some of the nonsense he just keeps repeating and repeating!

 

[SFLCatholic]

We are not talking about unified teaching (whatever that is).

This thread is about the supposed doctrinal and moral unity of actual Catholics…actual people…not what is written on a piece of paper.

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Not what is written on a piece of paper? So you are admitting then that doctrine is based in something other than the written word? Something other than the written Bible?

That’s not a great admission for an ex-Catholic turned Bible Christian.

What are “actual Catholics”? Please explain. I can’t wait for your answer.

 

[Pax]

We are not talking about unified teaching (whatever that is).

This thread is about the supposed doctrinal and moral unity of actual Catholics…actual people…not what is written on a piece of paper.

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You are wrong about this. We have over and over again made the distinction between unity of doctrine vs. dissenters and rebels. This is the distinction that the Church has always proclaimed in pointing out its superiority as the one true Church. The Church has never made a claim for unity based on the mix of wheat and tares within the body.

If you believe otherwise than you need to study what the Church has always taught and believed on this and related issues. If it were otherwise than all Catholics and their leaders throughout the ages would have to be idiots.

Simply look at history. There were heresies emerging from the get go. The Judaizers, the Donatists, the Gnostics, the Nestorians, and many others dogged the early Christians. The Nestorian heresy was huge and involved over half the bishops at its peak. Nevertheless, the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church prevailed. The unity of doctrine remained and still does today.

Start with Judas and then proceed with others named in the NT such as Diotrephes[3 Jn 1:9], Hymenaeus and Alexander[1 Tim 1:20], the Nicolaitans[Rev 2:5], and others. All of these were contemporary with the apostles and all represented those that refused to remain under the authority and guidance of the Church. Each had their own “views” about the truth. They separated themselves from the unity and doctrine of the one true Church.

Nothing has changed…it is the same today as it was then. The Church of Jesus is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and the Church is all that she claims to be. Your claims are about those that fall away and that is a different point altogether. You need to appreciate important distinctions. Scripture makes the distinctions and so can you.

 

[RobHom]

That’s what he’s trying to say? Because quite frrankly I do not have a clue what he is trying to say. He makes absoletely no sense, he just keeps going around and around in circles. I can understand what my grandchildren are trying to say betrter than this guy!

I was making the point, quite clearly, that the person(s) who are antagonistic towards us Catholics are simply “blowing smoke” and making allegations without a shred of proof…other than their opinions. Too deep the way I worded it before?

 

[Philthy]

We are not talking about unified teaching (whatever that is). This thread is about the supposed doctrinal and moral unity of actual Catholics…actual people…not what is written on a piece of paper.
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Thank goodness I didnt bother reading more than a few pages of this thread to see that you are still confused about the actual topic of the thread. Here is the OP:
timmyz:

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith.
Yet the more I become familiar with the RCC, the more I find it to be almost exactly as protestants with independant local churches all different from one another in doctrine and practice.
The centralised body of the RCC is either unwilling or unable to rain in catholics who flagrantly reject core RCC doctrine.

A discussion of Catholic unity is, in fact, a discussion of the unity of beliefs AS TAUGHT BY THE CHURCH. There is always a reference point wherein what is TRULY CATHOLIC and what is not are easily distinguishable. You know it, the OP knows it and that is why he is able to so easily recognize how the surrounding parishes vary from the actual teaching of the Church. Its easy! That, in a nutshell, is the fundamental difference between the Catholic Church and any Protestant community you wish to compare it to. Most Protestant communities dont even have something written that clearly outlines the specifics of their faith and how those specifics apply to real life situations.
It is a sad reality that many who profess to be Catholic fail to live as Catholics. But that should not really come as much of a surprise - just read how the earliest believers twisted Scripture and the apostolic teachings to their own destruction. It is no different now. The weeds will grow with the wheat until harvest time by Gods Will. But that individual disunity is not to be confused with the UNITY OF FAITH as presented by the Church. You may attempt to argue - and in fact you are arguing - that “If the church has doctrinal unity but many of its followers ignore it then there really is no doctrinal unity” but you would be mistaken. You could say many negative things about such a situation - such as “its scandalous” or " a bad witness" or whatever, and that is true, but the doctrinal UNITY that the Church puts forth through its teaching and the witness of the Saints throughout the ages provides a powerful refutation to those dissenters who are so easily recognizable as counterfeits in the Faith.

 

[po18guy]

We are not talking about unified teaching (whatever that is).

This thread is about the supposed doctrinal and moral unity of actual Catholics…actual people…not what is written on a piece of paper.

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In many posts, what you appear to be objecting to is what we know as “fallen human nature”. We were given free will by God. Misuse of FREE WILL leads to disunity. OBEDIENCE leads toward it.

Your credibility will increase as soon as you can quote from the “Catechism of the Lutheran Chruch”

But, in any event, keep engaging us. We must always be ready with a defense of the hope that is within us.

Christ’s peace.

 

[po18guy]

Your experience is the same as mine.

All claims to unity I have found have been only that: just claims.

Unity on paper but not in the streets is no unity at all. Any Catechism can be unified with itself. Where is the impressiveness of that?

It is actual people that must be truly unified to declare any sense of unity, but that is not what we find in the RCC. I was a Catholic for most of my life, and it’s always been this way.

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I went back to your first post on this thread to see your original point. Let’s examine what appears to be the essence of what you are saying here: Catholic disunity BAD. Lutheran disunity GOOD.

I guess the source of your disappointment could be that there is no unifying Protestant document, and so by definition, Protestants are not expected to be unified. Catholics do have one, and are expected to abide by it. And don’t say “the bible”, because private bible interpretation is what caused 33,000 Protestant denominations in the first place.

It’s like the law. Everyone is expected to obey it, but some don’t. Do you criticize the law because of the actions of criminals?

 

[Teflon93]

The OP, after a lot of words, asks “With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?”

Well what defines a denomination? If people split off and form another group, then one is obliged to ask on what basis.

If that basis is doctrine, then the new group is a new denomination. If that basis is not doctrine, then the new group is simply a new Catholic community.

There are zero groups of people within the Catholic Church who can split off and form a group separate from the Church under new doctrine while still remaining Catholic. Any new groups organized under new doctrines are no longer Catholic.

What separates denominations is recognizing different earthly authorities in manners of doctrine concerning faith and morals.

All Catholics recognize the authority of the Pope.

Therefore, Catholics are one.

Now, if Atemi can get many denominations from one Catholic Church, I have some loaves and fishes I’d like him to work his miraculous multiplication on…

 

[Teflon93]

Your credibility will increase as soon as you can quote from the “Catechism of the Lutheran Chruch”

Christ’s peace.

It’s not fair to ask Atemi to do what Martin Luther couldn’t do!

Luther was well known for his constancy, changing his mind like the wind. One day the Jews were the hope of mankind, then they were to be driven out of Europe (the difference of course being they declined to become Lutherans, triggering Luther’s sclerotic rage).

It was left to Lutherans after Luther to try to bring some coherency to things, which they managed to do.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

What are “actual Catholics”? Please explain. I can’t wait for your answer.

Actual Catholics are the opposite of the invisible church.

 

[Nordar]

I was making the point, quite clearly, that the person(s) who are antagonistic towards us Catholics are simply “blowing smoke” and making allegations without a shred of proof…other than their opinions. Too deep the way I worded it before?

Perhaps going back and reading the original post that the response was for may clear up your issues.

There was not any need for your sarcastic reply I was in fact in agreement with you. I knew exactly what you were saying, My response was tounge in cheek! Perhaps it was too deep for you~

 

[Atemi]

Unity is not defined by rebels and dissenters.

Of course.

Disunity is defined by rebels and dissenters…that includes the very many at Mass with you every weekend.

That is the whole point.

They separate themselves from the truth and unity of what we speak.

They are Catholic and do not believe as you do…thus rampant disunity.

We know them because John tells us how to recognize them. He does this in 1 Jn 2:19 when he says:

“They went out from us, but they did not belong to us; for if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us: but by going out they made it plain that none of them belongs to us.”

No, they are all around you.

They are the little old lady saying the Rosary as you enter church or the deacon serving the Eucharist.

I have seen them all.

They have not left you. They are very much at home in the RCC and proud to call themselves Catholics.

Many are also your future priests and bishops.

There is but one Magesterium and there is but one Pope that lead the Church of Christ. The unity of teaching and doctrine is easily found when one simply looks to the official teachings of the Church. Those that reject the official teachings “have gone out from us” and are no longer with us.

Too bad the “1 billion” are still hanging out.

You can spin rebellion, sin, and cafeteria attitudes anyway you want, but you cannot overcome the facts. We have unity of doctrine and it goes all the way back to Jesus.

Constantly pointing at your Catechism as if that has any bearing on the true and tangible unity among Catholics is a serious mistake, IMO.

It is this kind of error that the OP makes plain.

No one else can make that claim.

Actually, plenty of “Catholic” churches make that claim.

You should know this.

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[Atemi]

No one is hiding this. We Catholics know there are so-called caferia Catholics who do not practice their faith. The only difference is that none of these Catholics who disagree with the teaching authority of the Catholic do not have Magisterial authority.

Who cares what authority they have?

They are the evidence of disunity.

The Church does and the Church defined doctrines and make them very clear.

And in order to have unity you can boast about, real people must believe them.

That is far from the case with one billion Catholics.

The Catholic Church’s Magisterial Teachings have one concrete Doctrine.

Doctrine cannot be unified. Only PEOPLE can be unified.

Ink on paper doesn’t mean much when the people do not all unify with what it teaches.

When Protestants elders set a meeting to define doctrine in their Church, they have to come to an agreement. Suppose the elders vote to put infant baptism in their church, and the other doesn’t, the one who disagree will leave and form his own Church (a common practice that Martin Luther practice).

There is no authority in Protestantism.

Bishops and elders just like you do.

Sorry if that is disappointing.

BTW, look at all the schisms within Catholicism before talking like there are none.

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[PinoyCatholic]

So in other words, the United States is not a unified country. Because not everyone agrees with the laws of that land. Never mind that there is one uniform law and/or constitution that all are required to adhere to. As long as there are people who dissent, the US cannot be classified as a country because some people disobey their laws and constitution.

 

[Atemi]

This is my case:

*]There is no doctrinal disunity under Catholicism.

Sorry, but doctrines cannot be united. Only PEOPLE can be united.

That is the whole purpose of unity.

Saying your Catechism is united with itself is silly.

*]Therefore I am hiding nothing.

Sweeping the majority of Catholics under the carpet is hiding them. These are the same people, including priests, that the OP mentions.

Pretending that they do not exist will not help Catholics repair these errors.

*]To claim that there is doctrinal disunity under Catholicism serves as a smokescreen to cover the doctrinal disunity of Protestantism.

No.

We have Catechisms and statements of faith too.

Those are all unifed with themselves.

*]To hide the doctrinal disunity of Protestant from people is to rob them of a fair degree of their freedom of choice.

And to hide the doctrinal disunity of sooooooo many Catholics does the same.

*]I don’t need to make a stronger case than the one I have made

That is unfortunate.

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[Atemi]

Disunity among Catholics comes about from disobedience when one rejects the divine authority of the Magisterium.

Agreed…but it is still disunity and it is rampant in the Roman Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is clear about what she teaches. I can guarantee, all the Catholics participating on this thread agree with each other about the issues of women priests, artificial contraception, the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the divinity of Jesus, the efficacy of the Sacraments, etc. None of us have met each other (as far as I know.)

You do understand that the type of Catholic that posts at a place like this is a rare breed, don’t you?

How is it that we all came to agree on and believe the same things?

And I agree with many, many non-Catholics on doctrine all the time…and I never met them before either.

This is all irrelevant.

On the other hand, disunity among Protestants comes about from obedience when one accepts the Protestant belief that there is no divine, infallible authority (outside the Bible) present in the world today.

Yes. We believe the very Words of God have more authority than any words of men.

That is crazy talk to some, I know.

The difference? Catholics>obedience>unity.
Protestants>obedience>disunity

You do know that “Protestantism” is not a church, right?

Why did you not include all the Orthodox, and all the Old Catholics, and all the Traditionalists, and all the sedavacantists, and all the Old Calendarists, etc., etc…?

They also claim to be the Catholic Church.

Picking only one church (the modernist Roman Catholic) and comparing it to many churches (all non-Catholics) is only stacking the deck to produce whatever answer you predetermined to have.

For example:

Methodists>obedience>unity
All non-methodists>obedience>disunity

This is the fair comparison no RC apologists dare apply. That is unfortunate because doing so will bring more to the truth.

Removing all the Catholics you deem not worthy from your math only produces extremely fuzzy results.

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[Ignatius]

One of the main selling points of the RCC is the claim to be one unified universal church of all the same doctrine and faith.

Wheat and Tares, my friend, wheat and tares. Also, no matter how people may discuss things, you need to know that there is only one Authentic Teaching Authority of the Catholic Church.

(BTW, it’s the Catholic Church. the Catholic Church is a communion of Sui Juris Churches, one of which is the Roman Catholic Church. The Catholic Church consists of much more than, and is not coterminous with, the ‘Roman’ Catholic Church.)

Grace and peact to you.

Your brother in Christ.

 

[Atemi]

The OP, after a lot of words, asks “With the unrestrained variety within the RCC, at one point is it simply multiple denominations with one name?”

Yes.

It functionally is.

One billion differing Roman Catholics all under one roof.

Well what defines a denomination? If people split off and form another group, then one is obliged to ask on what basis.

This is why the Protestant method is more honest, IMO.

Protestants do publically and actually what Catholics do privately. A couple that stays miserably “married” is not fooling God into thinking that they have not already divorced.

Also, when you are taught from a child that to leave your church probably means eternal damnation, that has a very serious effect on people. Biblical churches don’t teach such errors.

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[Atemi]

You are wrong about this. We have over and over again made the distinction between unity of doctrine vs. dissenters and rebels.

It is people that must be unified to say you have unity.

Having a Catechism and calling that “unity” means nothing to those of us who understand the reality.

This is the distinction that the Church has always proclaimed in pointing out its superiority as the one true Church. The Church has never made a claim for unity based on the mix of wheat and tares within the body.

So why do you blame us for our tares?

You call our tares “disunity,” while you ignore your tares and call the rest “unified.”

How convenient is that?

That kind of reasoning cannot be taken seriously.

Simply look at history. There were heresies emerging from the get go. The Judaizers, the Donatists, the Gnostics, the Nestorians, and many others dogged the early Christians. The Nestorian heresy was huge and involved over half the bishops at its peak. Nevertheless, the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church prevailed. The unity of doctrine remained and still does today.

No.

That is only assuming that your church is that same church.

I do not make that assumption as there are plenty of other claimants to that title.

Start with Judas and then proceed with others named in the NT such as Diotrephes[3 Jn 1:9], Hymenaeus and Alexander[1 Tim 1:20], the Nicolaitans[Rev 2:5], and others. All of these were contemporary with the apostles and all represented those that refused to remain under the authority and guidance of the Church. Each had their own “views” about the truth. They separated themselves from the unity and doctrine of the one true Church.

And please note that the early church was not unified in doctrine either…even all the orthodox believers.

Nothing has changed…it is the same today as it was then. The Church of Jesus is one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and the Church is all that she claims to be.

This is all rhetoric. I know these are your claims.

Your claims are about those that fall away and that is a different point altogether. You need to appreciate important distinctions. Scripture makes the distinctions and so can you.

Those who “fall away”?

These are your priests and bishops teaching the flock.

There are your deacons and lectors.

These are many of what appears to be some of the most faithful around you at Mass every week.

They go to Confession regularly and take the Eucharist. They say the Rosary all the time.

These are not apostates!

LOL.

These are Catholics.

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