The RCC facade

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

When the majority of your own brethren do not even believe it, then we got disunity. There is no other way to candy-coat it.

The majority? How many?

Atemi:

Wrong. Way wrong, actually. All churches generally have a statement of faith or even their own catechism. Sorry.

Begs the question doesn’t it? That you have many distinct churches and each of those churches have distinct statements of faith. We have ONE CHURCH with ONE MAGISTERIAL TRUTH.

Atemi:

And if the “weeds” are so plenty, and they are not unified with the “wheat” (you, of course) then there is no unity to brag about.

Yet you claim you have tares and you claim you have catechisms and statements of faith. So evidently you don’t have a problem with disunity? What is all the fuss about then?

Atemi:

Then you are just as mistaken about my church as well…unless you want to erroneously call Protestantism a “church”…which almost all the posters in this thread are effectively doing.

Non sequitur. We are happy to call what you have churches. If the early Reformers differ with that, then you deal with it.

Atemi:

We all can compare ONE church to all the others that are not that church and magically declare “unity of doctrine.”

It’s not magic. It’s reason and reference.

Atemi:

Nonsense, really.

Your interpretation of what we are saying is nonsense. Not even nonsense, just jabberwocky.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

No. I am holding the Catholic standard in the usual apologetic against actual Catholic practice.

You are building straw houses as fast as the wolf blows them down.

Atemi:

You can do that with any one church, Tonks. That is why they are a church.

No, what you have are churches, plural. Each with distinct statements of faith.

Atemi:

You just conveniently ignore them when it comes time to tally “unity.”

There is no reason we should take into account your catechism when reading our own.

Atemi:

They are there, sure…and they are not unified with your church’s doctrines or morals…but that magically doesn’t matter when speaking of Catholic unity.

We are unified under Magisterial Truth. There is no magic about it. Saying there is doesn’t make it so. Saying there is thirty times still doesn’t make it so.

Atemi:

That math cannot be taken seriously by those you condemn for “disunity.”

Math is only not being taken seriously by you.

Atemi:

How condescending.

How charitable of you to point this out.

 

[Janet_S]

To Atemi:

If you believe there are so many “varieties” and “demoninations” of of Catholicism, why weren’t you able to find one that appealed to you?

Which Catholic “denomination” are you most opposed to? Which “denomination” are you arguing against on this thread.

I’m asking because I have never found a problem discerning what the CC teaches on any issue–it’s clear to anyone who seeks it. Some Catholics never bother trying to find out what the Church teaches; others think like sola Scripturists and deny the divine authority of the CC. But there are no competing Magisteria within the CC. There is only one–the bishops in union with the Bishop of Rome. Even you must realize this.

It is this unity of authority that we Catholics speak of when we speak of oneness.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

Atemi:

If disagreeing with the common apologetic automatically means one is talking “trash” about the Catholic faith, then you must be prepared to be a very unhappy person.

Your apologetic is not common. In fact it is exceedingly strange. As for talking ‘trash’ about the Catholic faith, why go there? I think Michael was prepared to be a very happy person and that’s why he swam the Tiber.

Atemi:

Not everyone is out to get you, Michael.

That’s true. Michael has a lot of friends.

Atemi:

Recognizing Catholic disunity, which all Catholics know about already, is not talking “trash” about Catholicism. It is the truth.

You are not telling the truth. You are bending the truth to singlemindedly promote an anti-Catholic agenda.

Atemi:

What’s funny is that when I was a Catholic and I mentioned it, it was met with nods and agreement…but if you mention the same exact thing as a non-Catholic and you are suddenly the Devil himself.

Who said anyone was the Devil himself? Oh, you did! Really, Atemi! I think you would do much better if you simply stopped making things up! As for mentioning the same thing as a non-Catholic, you again are misrepresenting what actually happens. You do not mention the same thing. You mention things which are waaaaaaaaaaay out there. Completely whacky things.

Atemi:

By this we can know that it is not the content of the post, but who is posting it, that will unfortunately enrage many people here.

Quite a serious allegation. Quite an unfriendly one given that – once again – you provide no evidence. I guess you must be getting desperate again, right? Things start getting a little personal when folks attacking the Church paint themselves into a corner logically.

Atemi:

No. This is about RC apologists holding all non-Catholics to a standard that they do not hold their own to.

Wrong. You haven’t even bothered to reference our standards. You have instead imposed ones of your own, bizarrely errant ones.

Atemi:

For an RC apologist to invite someone out of disunity and into disunity at the very same time is only a facade…as the OP correctly recognizes.

A facade for what?

Atemi:

And after a supposed 2000 years your own church still has not done much better. A billion differing opinions and tons of “tares” is not any kind of “unity” to boast about.

Except for the ONE MAGISTERIAL TRUTH preserved and protected by the Holy Spirit for all people always and everywhere.

Atemi:

The record speaks for itself.

Oh it does. It definitely does.
Church Militant:

Atemi wants unity? He has a weird way of showing it then.

Atemi:

Oh stop it. As if you are just saintly, Michael.

Michael doesn’t have to be a saint to note that you come not fostering unity but to tear down – unilaterally – arbitrarily – with no regard to history, logic, or truth.

 

[guanophore]

Conjecture?

LOL, no.

I was a Catholic for the majority of my life, my family is all Catholic, many of my friends are Catholic, and I am around Catholicism on a daily basis. My life is immersed in Catholicism and among Catholics.

I know better.

Catholics are neither morally or doctrinally unified. Not by a long shot.

…

This does not make any sense. I can only imagine that you are immersed with persons who are Catholic in name only. Many will call Him Lord, Lord, but will do not the things that He says. They will stand outside.

A Catholic is one who is united with the faith of the Church.

About the morality, the Church is a hospital for sinners, and the Church does not claim that it contains only sanctified members. If they deny the moral teaching of the church, they have excommunicated themselves, and are no longer Catholic. If this is what you came up in, and are surrounded by, then it is no wonder you are so hostile toward Catholicism.

 

[guanophore]

Conjecture?

LOL, no.

I was a Catholic for the majority of my life, my family is all Catholic, many of my friends are Catholic, and I am around Catholicism on a daily basis. My life is immersed in Catholicism and among Catholics.

I know better.

Catholics are neither morally or doctrinally unified. Not by a long shot.

…

This does not make any sense. I can only imagine that you are immersed with persons who are Catholic in name only. Many will call Him Lord, Lord, but will do not the things that He says. They will stand outside.

A Catholic is one who is united with the faith of the Church.

About the morality, the Church is a hospital for sinners, and the Church does not claim that it contains only sanctified members. If they deny the moral teaching of the church, they have excommunicated themselves, and are no longer Catholic. If this is what you came up in, and are surrounded by, then it is no wonder you are so hostile toward Catholicism.

If you want to stack the deck with only the Catholics you approve of, then you can make up anything you want.

We are talking about the doctrinal and moral unity of one blillion Catholics. It doesn’t exist.

No, I think the number of true Catholics is probably only a minute percentage of that. It is like the Jews. Most of them are Jewish in culture, but do not practice the faith into which they were born. And as St. Paul says “a Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly”. One who does not practice their faith really does not belong to it, whether they claim to, or not.

Stacking the deck with only those that are doctrinally unified…while ignoring all other Catholics you do not approve of…cannot be taken seriously as a trustworthy measure of Catholic “unity.”

Actually, I think it is more a case of unstacking the deck. It also has nothing to do with one’s personal approval, or not. In fact, if one were to use that as a standard, then the cafeteria method woudl be the standard. However, I agree that using Catholics as a measure of unity who are not joined inwardly with the doctrine of the Church cannot be taken seriously.

All you will come to at the end of the day is that a minority of Catholics are doctrinally unified…something the rest of us already know.

Yes. The rest of them are not really Catholics. Culturally, maybe, or nominally, but that’s it.

 

[guanophore]

I issued you a challenge to back up your statements with even one example. Even one fact. Even one source of reference other than your own mind. You failed to do that. Instead, you scoff at the challenge because you know that you are defeated. You lose. The truth wins. Would you like me to give you a list of examples of what the Roman Catholic Church is united on? Read the Catechism.

He DID give example! He referenced himself, a poorly catechized Catholic hostile toward the church, and his family and friends, who sound like cafeteria catholics and nominal catholics. If this is what he knows and has lived all his life, how can you expect him to think otherwise?

 

[guanophore]

I issued you a challenge to back up your statements with even one example. Even one fact. Even one source of reference other than your own mind. You failed to do that. Instead, you scoff at the challenge because you know that you are defeated. You lose. The truth wins. Would you like me to give you a list of examples of what the Roman Catholic Church is united on? Read the Catechism.

He DID give example! He referenced himself, a poorly catechized Catholic hostile toward the church, and his family and friends, who sound like cafeteria catholics and nominal catholics. If this is what he knows and has lived all his life, how can you expect him to think otherwise?

Thank you, I truly was thinking it was just me, Atemi’s posts just are absurd, they make no sense.

1. Truthfully I have no clue what he is even arguing about, The Church does have defined doctrines.
2. Catholics who do not adhere to The Doctrines are implementing their own free wills. They are therefore living Outside The Doctrines of The Church.

Because 2) are doing their own thing, that in no way Negates The Doctrines of The Church… I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that?

We have Laws in this Country, You cannot murder someone or else you will be punished. Because someone commits murder and does their own thing does that mean the Law does not exist?

Poster needs our prayers!

If he were to accept that, then he would necessarly have to apply it to himself, his family, and friends. He would have to consider that his own choice to leave the church, and the lax and disobedient practices of his loved ones are maybe not the fault of the Church, but would be personal responsibility.

 

[guanophore]

I issued you a challenge to back up your statements with even one example. Even one fact. Even one source of reference other than your own mind. You failed to do that. Instead, you scoff at the challenge because you know that you are defeated. You lose. The truth wins. Would you like me to give you a list of examples of what the Roman Catholic Church is united on? Read the Catechism.

He DID give example! He referenced himself, a poorly catechized Catholic hostile toward the church, and his family and friends, who sound like cafeteria catholics and nominal catholics. If this is what he knows and has lived all his life, how can you expect him to think otherwise?

Thank you, I truly was thinking it was just me, Atemi’s posts just are absurd, they make no sense.

1. Truthfully I have no clue what he is even arguing about, The Church does have defined doctrines.
2. Catholics who do not adhere to The Doctrines are implementing their own free wills. They are therefore living Outside The Doctrines of The Church.

Because 2) are doing their own thing, that in no way Negates The Doctrines of The Church… I fail to see what is so hard to understand about that?

We have Laws in this Country, You cannot murder someone or else you will be punished. Because someone commits murder and does their own thing does that mean the Law does not exist?

Poster needs our prayers!

If he were to accept that, then he would necessarly have to apply it to himself, his family, and friends. He would have to consider that his own choice to leave the church, and the lax and disobedient practices of his loved ones are maybe not the fault of the Church, but would be personal responsibility.

We have one unchanging body of doctrine.  How can one thing be unified?  The Church community however is unified around that one unchanging body of doctrine.  That is we agree that such a body of doctrine exists.  Not all of us agree with it.

I think he is pointing out, and rightly so, that most of the people who call themselves Catholic are not in agreement with the doctrines taught by the Church.

Such is life with tares and wheat living side by side. We don’t have to all agree with it for it to unify us. That is where Protestantism falls down. Nothing exists to unify you. It is not a question of whether or not you agree with each other or not. There is nothing there for you to agree with it. Well nothing that could be called ‘unchanging’ always and everywhere for all people.

I agree that those who call themselve Catholic but are not in agreement with the doctrine of the church are a good example of wheat and tares growing together. However, I disagree that all don’t have to agree to be unified. On the contrary, disagreement or refusal to accept IS what causes disunity, whether the person doing it says they are Catholic or Protestant. Atemi has described what a disunifying experience it was for him growing up, being around people who say they are Catholic, but are not.

Feeeeeeeelings… Whoa whoa whoa… feeeeelings… :harp:

Atemi does want to feel better, otherwise he would not be here posting.

 

[guanophore]

It depends on the thread and the authors or hosts. If I am speaking to a Traditionalist, I am talking about his Catholic Church, when I speak to an Eastern Orthodox, I am talking about his Catholic Church, etc…

There are so many “Catholic Churches” it is hard to keep track.

There is only one Church, Atemi. Jesus only founded One, and there are no others. If you are speaking of different rites, this is an irrelevant statement, as all of them share in the unity of the faith, though they may express it with various liturgies.

Merely a handful of you out of “one billion” does not make for a united set of Roman Catholics.

I agree with you on this point. I think if the evidence were sought to convict them, only 2% would actually be put to death. May God have mercy!

 

[guanophore]

It depends on the thread and the authors or hosts. If I am speaking to a Traditionalist, I am talking about his Catholic Church, when I speak to an Eastern Orthodox, I am talking about his Catholic Church, etc…

There are so many “Catholic Churches” it is hard to keep track.

There is only one Church, Atemi. Jesus only founded One, and there are no others. If you are speaking of different rites, this is an irrelevant statement, as all of them share in the unity of the faith, though they may express it with various liturgies.

Merely a handful of you out of “one billion” does not make for a united set of Roman Catholics.

I agree with you on this point. I think if the evidence were sought to convict them, only 2% would actually be put to death. May God have mercy!

Basically, there is only unity among a fraction of Catholics.

That is not impressive and does not jibe with the usual apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified.

Yet not one Catholic will ever give the same explanation for differing Protestants…when they are more than willing to excuse their own differences in such a fashion.

It seems that Catholics get a pass (“tares”) for all their disunity, but non-Catholics don’t.

How can us non-Catholics take such an arbitrary and biased position seriously?

…

I have never made that apologetic, so I am happy to be the “one Catholic” you have been waiting for! There are wheat and tares in the Protestant ecclesiastical communities, and tares create disunity in th body, whether they are Catholic, or Protestant. There, how is that?

 

[guanophore]

It depends on the thread and the authors or hosts. If I am speaking to a Traditionalist, I am talking about his Catholic Church, when I speak to an Eastern Orthodox, I am talking about his Catholic Church, etc…

There are so many “Catholic Churches” it is hard to keep track.

There is only one Church, Atemi. Jesus only founded One, and there are no others. If you are speaking of different rites, this is an irrelevant statement, as all of them share in the unity of the faith, though they may express it with various liturgies.

Merely a handful of you out of “one billion” does not make for a united set of Roman Catholics.

I agree with you on this point. I think if the evidence were sought to convict them, only 2% would actually be put to death. May God have mercy!

Basically, there is only unity among a fraction of Catholics.

That is not impressive and does not jibe with the usual apologetic that Catholics are doctrinally unified.

Yet not one Catholic will ever give the same explanation for differing Protestants…when they are more than willing to excuse their own differences in such a fashion.

It seems that Catholics get a pass (“tares”) for all their disunity, but non-Catholics don’t.

How can us non-Catholics take such an arbitrary and biased position seriously?

…

I have never made that apologetic, so I am happy to be the “one Catholic” you have been waiting for! There are wheat and tares in the Protestant ecclesiastical communities, and tares create disunity in th body, whether they are Catholic, or Protestant. There, how is that?

Nobody can, even Catholics when they propose it as a superior trait of Roman Catholicism.

I don’t think there is any need to be “superior” about it. Jesus said that those who are one would demonstrate Him to the world.

We do know that it is definitely a minority, however.

sadly

What is the threshold that determines when Catholics are doctrinally and morally unified?

Adherance to the teachings of the church.

Actually, that is what I have been saying about the RC apologetic in this matter this whole thread.

Well, I have never used that apologetic. I think Jesus cares a lot more for purity of faith than numbers of people that claim to have it, and don’t.

You forget that it is not us non-Catholics who are always boasting about doctrinal unity and the superiority of our faith because of that.

It is the doctrinal unity that makes the body whole.

What constitutes true unity among the faithful is a different thread altogether, but if nodding in the way of a Catechism is what “unity” is, then Roman Catholicism doesn’t even have that.

I think they are one and the same. I think that adherance to the teaching of the church IS what causes true unity among the faithful. It isn’t Roman, either, it is all of Catholicism.

…

 

[Ani_Ibi]

guanophore:

He DID give example! He referenced himself, a poorly catechized Catholic hostile toward the church, and his family and friends, who sound like cafeteria catholics and nominal catholics. If this is what he knows and has lived all his life, how can you expect him to think otherwise?

Because I believe he is capable of far more than buying into a victim mentality. We have been modelling the use of reason and reference for him consistently throughout this thread. He will have none of it.

Moreover he has been making claims which go far far beyond his personal experience. He has been making sweeping generalizations based on only anecdotal evidence which, in turn, we have no way of verifying.

guanophore:

I think he is pointing out, and rightly so, that most of the people who call themselves Catholic are not in agreement with the doctrines taught by the Church.

He – and you – have no basis on which to make a claim for ‘most’ Catholics. He is also claiming that doctrines cannot be unified. I have given him a dictionary definition which proves this wrong.

He is also claiming that, because Catholics have different opinions that this means that nothing unifies them. This is just plain illogical.

We have explained all of this to him til we are blue in the face and he will have nothing of it. Therefore I believe that he is not discussing but merely here to singlemindedly promote an anti-Catholic agenda – anti-Catholic because what he says misrepresents Church teaching, yet he refuses to be corrected.

guanophore:

I agree that those who call themselve Catholic but are not in agreement with the doctrine of the church are a good example of wheat and tares growing together. However, I disagree that all don’t have to agree to be unified.

Well then you disagree. I claim that folks who differ on some things can be unified under a unified dogma.

guanophore:

On the contrary, disagreement or refusal to accept IS what causes disunity, whether the person doing it says they are Catholic or Protestant.

No. Disagreement allows communication, testing of beliefs, and clarification of teachings. The Catholic Church is not Big Brother where everyone has to be in lockstep about everything. There are a few boundaries to that: our disagreements cannot lead the innocent astray, cannot bring scandal to the Church, cannot contradict dogma in an obstinate way.

guanophore:

Atemi has described what a disunifying experience it was for him growing up, being around people who say they are Catholic, but are not.

Uh-huh. And his complete lack of understanding of Catholic teaching is indicative of a Catholic upbringing? Riiiiiiight…

guanophore:

Atemi does want to feel better, otherwise he would not be here posting.

You cannot read someone’s heart. That is for God alone.

 

[Teflon93]

Can we judge wine by vinegar?

This is simply a brilliant distillation of the issue here.

And, thankfully, we don’t judge Protestant apologetics by Atemi’s angry thrashing about.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

This is simply a brilliant distillation of the issue here.

And, thankfully, we don’t judge Protestant apologetics by Atemi’s angry thrashing about.

Thankfully. I think I will go resurrect my thread on good experiences between Catholics and Protestants.

 

[cpayne]

This entire discussion makes me go back over my journey into Catholicism. For me, THE decision-maker was the Magisterium. I slowly came to see how Christianity absolutely needed to have this or something like it. And, sure enough, there it was—but only in the CC. After I figured that out, I was amazed at how so much else began to fall into place.

 

[Ani_Ibi]

This entire discussion makes me go back over my journey into Catholicism. For me, THE decision-maker was the Magisterium. I slowly came to see how Christianity absolutely needed to have this or something like it. And, sure enough, there it was—but only in the CC. After I figured that out, I was amazed at how so much else began to fall into place.

What fell into place?

 

[Pax]

Atemi,

Even though I and others disagree with you on this subject, please know that we do have common ground. As Christians we all have Christ in common. Jesus is the focal point for unity.
Regardless, of our differences let us enjoy the peace and love of Christ and extend it to one another.

I look to John chapter 17 for my perspective on this subject. Jesus is the focal point and he wants unity. Christians can **only **be unified in Jesus if they all believe the same things about Jesus. God gave us the scriptures. The Father sent his only son Jesus. Jesus established one Church. Jesus said that the gates of hell will not prevail against His Church. That Church still exists today and history shows us which Church Jesus established. Only the Catholic Church has the history, the bona fides, and the pedigree to make the claim that it is the Church of Christ Jesus.

The body of Christ which is the Church is paramount. The Church’s teachings are paramount for unifying the members. The sinners within are either in agreement or disagreement with the teachings. Those that are in disagreement have placed themselves above the body of Christ. This is a form of idolatry. Unfortunately, it is difficult for man to submit himself fully to the Lord and His Church. Complete submission brings about complete union. This applies to all of the members whether they be a deacon, priest, bishop, or member of the laity.

I hope this helps.

 

[Atemi]

Yeah, I think nominal Catholics should not be counted.

I thought they are not Catholics?

This is the language that is the cause of so much confusion.

It seems they are Catholics when one argument needs to be made, but then summarily disowned and rejected when another argument needs to be made.

The love amongst Catholics here is amazing.

They are, Atemi. Catholic is defined by those who are unified with the Church in doctrine. Therefore, by definition, those who are not in unity are not Catholic. MOst of them don’t realize that they have become Protestants, or that they have excommunicated themselves.

And the RCC does not make sure they know either, but that is a different thread.

Catholics are doctrinally unified, or they are not Catholic.

Yet this same standard is not applied to other Christians…just modernist Roman Catholics who are somehow all magically “united in faith” because they are the really, real Catholics and not the “fake” Catholics who are everyone else but them…

What is false is the polemic that there are so many “Catholics”, when we know that the majority are not.

Thank you for your honesty. I have been charged with lying by Catholics for saying the same. Interesting.

But let’s keep in mind that that is not our polemic, guan.

That is the Catholic polemic.

Just ask any RC apologist how many Catholics there are on the planet and he will proudly boast that there are one billion.

This is what I am talking about.

Catholics are only Catholics to some Catholics when those Catholics arbitrarily choose to recognize the other Catholics…or those other Catholics are simply “heretics” that need only be ignored.

And you wonder why we non-Catholics and ex-Catholics are not impressed by all these claims to “unity.”

The OP misunderstands what it means to be Catholic.

No. He just sees the reality of what it means to be Catholic. Just ask all those Catholics he ran into and I run into every day.

Your answer is simply that we are to just ignore them because they “don’t count.”

…

 

[Atemi]

Doctrine cannot be unified. Only PEOPLE can be unified.

But how do people get unified? By adhering to a set of ideas that gives them a singular purpose.

Which the majority of Catholics do not do…thus great disunity.

Ink on paper doesn’t mean much when the people do not all unify with what it teaches.

Thank you again for admitting that the Protestant Reformation and Sola Scriptura are pointless.

What are you talking about?

Try to stay on topic.

Saying your Catechism is united with itself is silly.

You keep saying this and want us to believe it soley because of your conviciton about it.

If you don’t believe that on your own, then I can’t help you there.

Being impressed with “unity” among Catholics merely because you have a Catechism (which other churches have as well) will not help impress others.

“Hey look! We got a Catechism. That means we are unified!”

Please.

**We have Catechisms and statements of faith too.

Those are all unifed with themselves.**

But how can we take you serioulsy when you turn right around in the same post and make a claim for your postion using the exact thing you claim is silly?

It was sarcasm.

It is pointing out that you do not hold others to the same standard you hold yourself.

If your Catechism being “united” with itself is proof of your church’s “unity,” then you should apply the same standard to other churches and get the same exact results: unity.

But no, that would be too fair, so a different standard of “unity” is applied to non RC churches.

This is never convincing.

…