J
Jakub
Guest
Interesting response to the original topic…from Fr. Hardon
therealpresence.org/archives/Mass/Mass_006.htm
james
therealpresence.org/archives/Mass/Mass_006.htm
james
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W
Walking_Home
Guest
therealpresence.org/archives/Mass/Mass_006.htm
The Symbolism of the Eucharist
In the light of the foregoing, it is not surprising that the Eucharistic liturgy is identified as symbolism.
The symbolic deed done with power and reverence is fundamental. At Sunday eucharist, there is reverence for the body of Christ when we have eaten bread that is bread to all the senses and we habitually have enough wine for the cup to be shared by every communicant. Do not deprive these symbols—bread, wine, eating, drinking—of their power.
At this point, the pastoral letter goes on at great length to quote from St. Augustine. One short paragraph illustrates the focus of Augustine’s quotation.
If, then, you wish to understand the body of Christ, listen to the apostle as he says to the faithful, “You are the body of Christ, and His members” (1 Cor. 12:27). If, therefore, you are the body of Christ and His members, your mystery has been placed on the Lord’s table, you receive your mystery. You reply “Amen” to that which you are, and by replying you consent. For you hear “The body of Christ,” and you reply “Amen.” Be a member of the body of Christ so that your “Amen” may be true.
As said before, the central focus of the pastoral letter is on the body of Christ, indeed, but on the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church. Prophetically, the late Pope Pius XII anticipated this misunderstanding of associating, to the point of identifying, the Holy Eucharist with the Mystical Body of Christ.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2332699#post2332699
Quote=Joysong
Our pastor gave a wonderful homily today for the feast of Corpus Christi, and referred to Pope Benedict’s Sacramentum Caritatis where the Pope explained St. Augustine’s sublime understanding of the Body of Christ. It was especially fitting and timely, not only for our discussion, but also for the sacred Feast we celebrated today. I’m happy to share, for I looked it up this afternoon.
Quote:
Christus totus in capite et in corpore
This is a most awesome meditation, and had our pastor not spoken of it, I might not have appreciated the fullness of teaching in this document. I missed it the first time I read it, unfortunately.
Carole
The Symbolism of the Eucharist
In the light of the foregoing, it is not surprising that the Eucharistic liturgy is identified as symbolism.
The symbolic deed done with power and reverence is fundamental. At Sunday eucharist, there is reverence for the body of Christ when we have eaten bread that is bread to all the senses and we habitually have enough wine for the cup to be shared by every communicant. Do not deprive these symbols—bread, wine, eating, drinking—of their power.
At this point, the pastoral letter goes on at great length to quote from St. Augustine. One short paragraph illustrates the focus of Augustine’s quotation.
If, then, you wish to understand the body of Christ, listen to the apostle as he says to the faithful, “You are the body of Christ, and His members” (1 Cor. 12:27). If, therefore, you are the body of Christ and His members, your mystery has been placed on the Lord’s table, you receive your mystery. You reply “Amen” to that which you are, and by replying you consent. For you hear “The body of Christ,” and you reply “Amen.” Be a member of the body of Christ so that your “Amen” may be true.
As said before, the central focus of the pastoral letter is on the body of Christ, indeed, but on the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church. Prophetically, the late Pope Pius XII anticipated this misunderstanding of associating, to the point of identifying, the Holy Eucharist with the Mystical Body of Christ.
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2332699#post2332699
Quote=Joysong
Our pastor gave a wonderful homily today for the feast of Corpus Christi, and referred to Pope Benedict’s Sacramentum Caritatis where the Pope explained St. Augustine’s sublime understanding of the Body of Christ. It was especially fitting and timely, not only for our discussion, but also for the sacred Feast we celebrated today. I’m happy to share, for I looked it up this afternoon.
Quote:
Christus totus in capite et in corpore
- The “subject” of the liturgy’s intrinsic beauty is Christ himself, risen and glorified in the Holy Spirit, who includes the Church in his work. (109) Here we can recall an evocative phrase of Saint Augustine which strikingly describes this dynamic of faith proper to the Eucharist. The great Bishop of Hippo, speaking specifically of the eucharistic mystery, stresses the fact that Christ assimilates us to himself: “The bread you see on the altar, sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. The chalice, or rather, what the chalice contains, sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ. In these signs, Christ the Lord willed to entrust to us his body and the blood which he shed for the forgiveness of our sins. If you have received them properly, you yourselves are what you have received.”
This is a most awesome meditation, and had our pastor not spoken of it, I might not have appreciated the fullness of teaching in this document. I missed it the first time I read it, unfortunately.
Carole
S
Swiss_Guard
Guest
Thank you for your reply because I was hoping to engage in a civil discussion. I know I can have one with you.
The early Christians were not allowed to worship in public. They had to go into hiding just to offer Mass. There was a very real chance that you would be executed just for going to Mass.
Where were the first Masses held? They were held at someone’s home. The doors had to be locked and the curtains drawn for fear of the authorities. However, even the early Church had the relics of the martyrs present at Mass. Relics are a visible reminder of those who gave their lives for the Catholic faith.
Mass was later held at the graves of the martyrs as more converts were added to the faith. The sight of being at the grave of a martyr while the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is offered is quite a visible reminder of Jesus offering Himself to the Father through the Holy Spirit by the hands of the priest.
While there weren’t churches, there were still visual aestetics to lift the hearts and minds of the faithful to God.
Where did I mention that Latin was essential to right worship? I went to great pains to show that right worship can happen at a Novus Ordo Mass in the vernacular. Please do not take my posts out of context. Please do not talk down to me either, as if I have no knowledge of Church history. It’s insulting and adds nothing to the discussion.
The faith was also taught by sacred art as well as by preaching. We have a corporal body as well as a soul. We believe with our eyes as well as with our ears. It’s interesting you believe that matter is somehow contrary to our faith. This is what the Jansenists and Calvinists believe.
It’s even more sad that people today want to eliminate what the Church has done for centuries to teach the faith. Matter is important because we are material beings. External signs are a manifestation of an internal reality. What are the sacraments? They are visible signs, instituted by Christ, to give grace. Christ knows it’s necessary to give us visible signs to instruct us in the faith.
Walk into any Assembly of God or any other Fundamentalist Christian church and what will you see? Usually only a cross without a corpus, a podium, and pews or chairs. No sacred art, no statues, and certainly no incense. There is also no belief in the Real Presence.
When we make our churches into auditoriums, receive Holy Communion in our hand from our neighbors like a piece of candy, refer to the altar as a table, remove hymns with any reference to sacrifice, and emphasize the “Eucharistic Celebration” as a meal, why would anyone believe in the Real Presence?
It is not the sign of a weak faith to need external signs. After all, how do we find the true faith? By finding the true Church. The visible leads us to the invisible. This has always been taught by Holy Mother Church.
LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI
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OLRansom
Guest
It has declined because He is not really present in most places. This flows from the consequences of a substantial defect of form in the ‘consecration’.
T
tee_eff_em
Guest
I have no doubt about that.stmaria;2341910 said:
No polling data necessary to back it up.
Neither here nor there but: I would not be a bit surprised if polling data showed the portion to be less than 100%
:twocents:
tee
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BobP123
Guest
Ah, so there is a difference between “many” and “all.” I knew it.
U
Usagi
Guest
To toss another anecdote on the pile…
My first exposure to the Mass as Sacrifice was also my first exposure to the Mass, period, as a teenager in 1985. (I’m the child of a never-convalidated mixed marriage, and my dad only returned to the sacraments after my parents’ divorce that year.)
So here I am, totally uncatechized except for a vague knowledge that Catholics are different somehow, and too short to actually see what’s going on up front.
Naturally, the priest used the Eucharistic Prayer that includes references to “this holy and living sacrifice” and “the victim whose death has reconciled us to yourself.”
I honestly thought for a second there that those freaky Catholics were killing somebody, like the Aztecs or something
Of course, I soon learned Who the actual Priest and Victim of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is, and eventually I joined the Church myself.
Most of my experience may be yet another example of a convert seeking out and thus gaining far more catechesis than a cradle Catholic often receives, but just based on that very first experience attending Mass I’m very surprised to hear that so few understand the sacrificial nature of the Mass and the very Real Presence of the Priest/Victim. Following along at Mass (yes, even the NO) was enough for me to start catching on, with no background at all in the Faith.
Oh, and as an aside, for a kid from a Baptist background, the Pauline Mass is plenty reverent, solemn, and awe-inspiring. It could in no way be mistaken for any service I had attended previously. 'Course, I still haven’t managed to get to a TLM after 22 years of Mass attendance and 12 as a confirmed Catholic, so it’s quite possible one of those would knock my socks even further off
Usagi
My first exposure to the Mass as Sacrifice was also my first exposure to the Mass, period, as a teenager in 1985. (I’m the child of a never-convalidated mixed marriage, and my dad only returned to the sacraments after my parents’ divorce that year.)
So here I am, totally uncatechized except for a vague knowledge that Catholics are different somehow, and too short to actually see what’s going on up front.
Naturally, the priest used the Eucharistic Prayer that includes references to “this holy and living sacrifice” and “the victim whose death has reconciled us to yourself.”
I honestly thought for a second there that those freaky Catholics were killing somebody, like the Aztecs or something
Of course, I soon learned Who the actual Priest and Victim of the Eucharistic Sacrifice is, and eventually I joined the Church myself.
Most of my experience may be yet another example of a convert seeking out and thus gaining far more catechesis than a cradle Catholic often receives, but just based on that very first experience attending Mass I’m very surprised to hear that so few understand the sacrificial nature of the Mass and the very Real Presence of the Priest/Victim. Following along at Mass (yes, even the NO) was enough for me to start catching on, with no background at all in the Faith.
Oh, and as an aside, for a kid from a Baptist background, the Pauline Mass is plenty reverent, solemn, and awe-inspiring. It could in no way be mistaken for any service I had attended previously. 'Course, I still haven’t managed to get to a TLM after 22 years of Mass attendance and 12 as a confirmed Catholic, so it’s quite possible one of those would knock my socks even further off
Usagi
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prv
Guest
So, then, poorly educated lay religious teachers must be part of the problem.
Seventy percent?? Astounding, to say the least, especially since Latin-rite Catholics are told, " This is Jesus the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Happy…"
And the people respond,
“Lord, I am not worthy to receive you…” (emphasis my own)
M
mchium
Guest
I think the perception you refer to is rooted (at least in part) in the ubiquitous and erroneous belief that we accept the teachings of Jesus / the Church because we ‘understand’ and ‘agree with’ them. This is so commonplace that most people - even self-designated ‘devout’ Catholics - are surprised to learn that we do not accept the faith (and her dogmas/doctrines) because we agree and/or understand; but because they are revealed by God.
Serious catechesis is needed in many cases - as well as humility and obedience.
P
paramedicgirl
Guest
Taken from a post in another thread, here is one more reason belief in the Real Presence has declined:
B
BobP123
Guest
This is incredible!! He is not only undermining the people’s faith but his own vocation. Boy, would I like to write his bishop!
W
Walking_Home
Guest
The “priest” is just one from the assembly—who “presides” over the assembly performing the consecration.
L
LilyM
Guest
Puh-leeze!I have no doubt about that.
No polling data necessary to back it up.
Remember the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano happened because the priest celebrating it *himself *didn’t believe in the Real Presence. You think he’s the only one ever in history?
Remember too that the hundreds of thousands who left the Catholic Church during the Reformation had attended nothing but the Traditional Mass or as near as doesn’t matter up to the point of leaving - did that automatically translate into belief in the Real Presence? Most of them professed their non-belief easily enough that it can be doubted.
B
BobP123
Guest
Question: would I have to go to confession before I consecrate some bread at home before dinner?
Or afterwards?
B
BobP123
Guest
See what Judas started!
E
edwest2
Guest
It is interesting to see the finger pointing at Vatican II. One only needs to remember the words of Jesus Christ: “This is my body,” “This is my blood.”
When a person is surrounded by a society that is reflective of their beliefs, their beliefs tend to stay stable. When that society begins to gradually show, first by a small wrong example, then another, then another and another, an effect can and is felt among those who believe.
In the 1950s, divorce was a lot less prevalent. The same in the early 1960s.
Then The Pill appeared and guess what? People were gradually shown by example among those they knew and witnessed that it was OK. Yeah, what’s the big deal? It took many years for it to happen but, obviously, you don’t need to quote a poll to know it happened.
And so what that we’re living in the 21st Century? Did some sort of knowledge or enlightenment suddenly pour into people’s heads when the clock chimed 21st Century?
Stop listening to the secular world. If your priest is telling you something you know is not true, then prayerfully, gently communicate that to him.
And the Theologians. I’m sorry, but looking at different “angles” from which to interpret Scripture does not mean you are error-proof.
The Mass is the reenactment of the Last Supper. The Hippies, Radicals, and Anarchists of the late 1960s attacked the Church and the society at large and spent the next 30 years turning the secular and Catholic parts of society into their image and likeness. That’s what happened.
The Bible warns of destructive heresies coming into the Church.
Each of us should turn in devotion to the Sacred Heart of Christ and the Eucharist. Not watching TV, or playing video games. God tells His people to not be lukewarm but to be either hot or cold or He will spit you out of His mouth.
God bless,
Ed
When a person is surrounded by a society that is reflective of their beliefs, their beliefs tend to stay stable. When that society begins to gradually show, first by a small wrong example, then another, then another and another, an effect can and is felt among those who believe.
In the 1950s, divorce was a lot less prevalent. The same in the early 1960s.
Then The Pill appeared and guess what? People were gradually shown by example among those they knew and witnessed that it was OK. Yeah, what’s the big deal? It took many years for it to happen but, obviously, you don’t need to quote a poll to know it happened.
And so what that we’re living in the 21st Century? Did some sort of knowledge or enlightenment suddenly pour into people’s heads when the clock chimed 21st Century?
Stop listening to the secular world. If your priest is telling you something you know is not true, then prayerfully, gently communicate that to him.
And the Theologians. I’m sorry, but looking at different “angles” from which to interpret Scripture does not mean you are error-proof.
The Mass is the reenactment of the Last Supper. The Hippies, Radicals, and Anarchists of the late 1960s attacked the Church and the society at large and spent the next 30 years turning the secular and Catholic parts of society into their image and likeness. That’s what happened.
The Bible warns of destructive heresies coming into the Church.
Each of us should turn in devotion to the Sacred Heart of Christ and the Eucharist. Not watching TV, or playing video games. God tells His people to not be lukewarm but to be either hot or cold or He will spit you out of His mouth.
God bless,
Ed
W
Walking_Home
Guest
Question: would I have to go to confession before I consecrate some bread at home before dinner?
Or afterwards?
More likely —confess to the assembly—at some pt. before sitting down for the “meal”.
- Status