The Real Presence - Why Has Belief Declined?

[KofC660]

WHY BELIEF IN THE REAL PRESENCE HAS DECLINED:

The rise of “Rationalism”.

Despite all of the irrational decisions continuing to be made in the world, superficial “rationalism” is the guiding principal in people’s lives. Does the host become the Body of Christ at Consecration? It doesn’t make “sense”, under the test of “rationalism”, so people just don’t believe. They have no sense of the irrational when it comes to religion - there’s just no “magic” for them there. The “magic” has been transfered to such things as government and celebrity. This is why the “self help” preachers (such as that Olsteen(sp?) preacher) are so popular - they are “rational”, unlike the Catholic Church, which insists on “mysteries”.

In order to be a “traditional Catholic”, you have to have a pre-Enlightenment mindset, which is very unpopular for people to have, living in the 21st century especially.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

The survey tells you how many people believe the Eucharist is only a symbol. It doesn’t tell you where they get that idea. They very well may have been taught about the Real Presence when they were kids and don’t remember what was taught.

The same poll said only 1 in 4 (25%) attend Mass regularly. Since the poll is of “all Catholics” and 75% don’t attend Mass on Sunday, I don’t think it is coincidental that 70% don’t believe in the Real Presence. If it was a poll of Catholics who attend Mass regularly and 70% said they don’t believe in the Real Presence, you would have a better case.

Why are only 25% of Catholics attending Mass on Sundays? Could it have something to do with the way we worship? Is the Mass primarily as sacrifice or a meal? Is the Mass a sacrifice at all?

Why should I get up on Sunday morning to join the community at the gathering around the Lord’s table to eat a meal? I can go to the local Denny’s and get a Grand Slam breakfast instead.

You’re right, it’s not coincidental that those who don’t attend Mass don’t believe in the Real Presence. Why don’t they believe? Bad catechesis? Yes, that’s part of it. However, when someone walks into a church and doesn’t see any sacred art, doesn’t hear sacred music, and hears psychobabble from the pulpit, that person isn’t going to believe in the Real Presence no matter what you and I tell him. His senses tell him differently and he’s going to trust his senses before he trusts you or me.

Lex orandi, lex credendi!

 

[rlg94086]

Contiuned from previous post…

Hearing is just one of the senses that is effected. Sight comes next. Church “wreckovations” are essential to destroying belief in the Real Presence. Tear down majestic high altars and replace them with altars that look more like tables. Build “churches in the round” where the whole “community” gathers around the Lord’s “table.” Remove the communion rail, the visible symbol between the sacramental priesthood and the priesthood of the faithful. Remove statues as well because they remind us that the Mass is where heaven and earth meet.

I have also seen this step taken even further. Many new churches are built with daily Mass chapels. These chapels have the altar on the same level as the faithful. The priest doesn’t ascend to the altar, he’s on the same level with the faithful. This further blurs the line between the sacramental priesthood and the priesthood of the faithful.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

The sense of smell is next. Incense is no longer used. No reason to use incense if there is no sacrifice. Incense also represents the our prayers ascending to heaven. A meal doesn’t have prayers ascending to heaven. A simple grace before meal suffices.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

It’s little wonder that abuses of extraordinary ministers of Communion happen. It’s little wonder that Communion in the hand becomes the way the majority of the faithful receive Our Lord. It’s little wonder the tabernacle is moved to some obscure part of the church. It’s little wonder some churches have removed the kneelers. It’s little wonder churches are locked once the last Mass is over. When the meal aspect is over emphasized to the point that the sacrificial aspect is implicitly denied, this becomes the logical consequence.

Does this mean what I have described happens in every parish? No. It doesn’t happen in my parish. The priests still emphasize the sacrificial aspect of the Mass. The priest begins Mass by ascending to the altar. We have priests and deacons as ministers of Holy Communion. We also have the first Perpetual Adoration chapel in the Archdiocese of Chicago. We have had Perpetual Adoration in our parish since June 1986.

If your diocese doesn’t have any of the problems I have described, don’t ever leave it and pray for your bishop. However, even the best dioceses have some of the problems.

It’s not balderdash to say that the sacrificial aspect of the Mass has been de-emphasized. It’s not a sign of an immature faith to want to worship in a church adorned with a beautiful high altar, statues, and a communion rail. It’s also not true that there aren’t any people inside the Church who want to make the Mass into their own personal prayer.

I want to point out that I never mentioned the Novus Ordo Mass or Vatican II until now. My parish has only had the Tridentine Mass for just under two years. All of this happened while having the Novus Ordo Mass exclusively for the majority of the 21 years of Perpetual Adoration.

I ask those who would respond negatively to my post to ask themselves a question: Is there anything I said that is not happening right now? Look around your own parish. I’ll guess there are very few on this forum who either don’t belong to a parish or have been to a parish where what I have stated isn’t going on.

If there is anyone who lives in a diocese (other than Lincoln, NE) where none of the aformentioned things are happening, let me know where it is so I can move there.

Take an honest look at what is going on in your parish and diocese and then take an honest look at how it has effected the way you worship. We can’t have our senses assaulted like this without being effected.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

Excellent posts, Swiss Guard! I have luckily landed in a reverent parish.

I do see what you are talking about. In fact, in my early days as a Catholic (actually before I was confirmed), my priest sent me to Cantor school. The leaders (a nationally renowned Cantor from Michigan and a popular composer from Oregon) represent all that is wrong with extreme modernism. The Cantor (nor a priest) even invited me to join them in a “communion,” which he led and broke the bread.

When I went through RCIA, I learned how dreadfully wrong they were.

 

[rlg94086]

Why are only 25% of Catholics attending Mass on Sundays? Could it have something to do with the way we worship? Is the Mass primarily as sacrifice or a meal? Is the Mass a sacrifice at all?

Why should I get up on Sunday morning to join the community at the gathering around the Lord’s table to eat a meal? I can go to the local Denny’s and get a Grand Slam breakfast instead.

You’re right, it’s not coincidental that those who don’t attend Mass don’t believe in the Real Presence. Why don’t they believe? Bad catechesis? Yes, that’s part of it. However, when someone walks into a church and doesn’t see any sacred art, doesn’t hear sacred music, and hears psychobabble from the pulpit, that person isn’t going to believe in the Real Presence no matter what you and I tell him. His senses tell him differently and he’s going to trust his senses before he trusts you or me.

Lex orandi, lex credendi!

I was interupted by one of my co-workers in the middle of replying to your previous posts, so I missed this. I agree with you - the catechesis is not the problem. It is the “spirit of Vatican II” and terrible abuse of the GIRM that have caused the most damage.

In this Sunday’s homily, our priest was discussing the use of Latin in our parish - many like it, many don’t…not sure how the numbers actually split out. He said when the new GIRM came out (1999 or 2000), all of the priests in the Archdiocese were called to a meeting and the changes in the GIRM were explained…I think by someone from Baltimore. One priest in a prepared response railed about the increased use and instruction of Latin for the laity recommended in the GIRM was a step backward. At the end of his prepared response however, he said the speaker explained that Latin has always been encouraged and confessed that he had never really read the GIRM all the way through!

This is the sadness in today’s Church. I pray that our current Pope continues to head us in the right direction.

Pax,
Robert

 

[Rykell]

Swiss Guard,

You present a commonly assumed thesis as to the why, but I disagree with this thinking for the most part, simply because of the lack of all these things in the early Church. Converts were many, yet no churches had been built at that time. So the aesthetics of sight and smell were not at all the “converting” influence nor the staying power of belief.

The faith itself, which came through hearing the word of the disciples, and the power of the Holy Spirit touching their minds and hearts was at work. And much to your surprise, they did not celebrate in latin.

It is a sad story today to think that unless all the smells, bells, and externals are present, that one is less apt to believe or be enabled to worship.

 

[BobP123]

… many like it, many don’t…not sure how the numbers actually split out.

You stumbled onto another problem which really didn’t exist before Vatican II. All these issues now put out to a preference test for the parishioners. Why? So they don’t shop for another parish? Numbers are so low we can’t risk losing any more for fear they may close down the parish, so we say what we need to in order to keep them here?

Where the Mass was the same everywhere, you didn’t have this parish vs parish marketing going on. You went to your local church, to confession, to communion, listened to a short homily, and that was it. You went on vacation, you went to Mass there, Christ was there as well, and that was it.

Sure, some will say there were problems before Vatican II. Obviously a lot of people held back their feelings. But boy did they let their feelings and doubts about the Catholic Faith come out afterwards!

Methinks even when the TLM becomes fully restored, it will take some time to fully recover the mindset of the Real Presence. Will the reverent Novus Ordo do it? Perhaps to some extent, but when you have a battle of vernaculars and interpretations and “approved” options and prayers (orandi) to contend with, you’re certainly limited.

 

[rlg94086]

In regards to the Real Presence, I think there is hope. Adoration, including perpetual adoration, seems to be on the rise in a lot of areas. Adoration doesn’t make sense unless you believe in the Real Presence. I don’t think the TLM is required for a belief in Real Presence, but I do agree with Swiss Guard that the lack of reverence in a lot of parishes has probably diminished the beliefs.

I do agree that if the motu proprio is released, that the move toward the TLM will take time. Some reverent parishioners at parishes that don’t offer a TLM (like my own) will have the opportunity once the indult is here. My priest says he will need some training, and he is unsure of how the TLM will be received. Hopefully, our reverent Pauline Mass with Latin will help transition people. I think it will.

I agree that it is sad that there is a preference test, but that is the reality today. I was born in 1965 and raised non-Catholic, so I have no idea what it was like before.

Pax,
Robert

You stumbled onto another problem which really didn’t exist before Vatican II. All these issues now put out to a preference test for the parishioners. Why? So they don’t shop for another parish? Numbers are so low we can’t risk losing any more for fear they may close down the parish, so we say what we need to in order to keep them here?

Where the Mass was the same everywhere, you didn’t have this parish vs parish marketing going on. You went to your local church, to confession, to communion, listened to a short homily, and that was it. You went on vacation, you went to Mass there, Christ was there as well, and that was it.

Sure, some will say there were problems before Vatican II. Obviously a lot of people held back their feelings. But boy did they let their feelings and doubts about the Catholic Faith come out afterwards!

Methinks even when the TLM becomes fully restored, it will take some time to fully recover the mindset of the Real Presence. Will the reverent Novus Ordo do it? Perhaps to some extent, but when you have a battle of vernaculars and interpretations and “approved” options and prayers (orandi) to contend with, you’re certainly limited.

 

[Tom317]

It seems obvious (at least to me), that belief is lost because of decades of terrible Catechesis. Children are not being taught the truth in significant numbers and those kids become adults.

Most parishes just assume that volunteer catechists know and believe the faith, but it is my experience then many (if not most) do not.

Since the vast majority of Catholics now learn their faith in RE clases (not in school or the home), we see the fruit of that very poor base of formation.

Form the kids and this will change.

 

[rlg94086]

I don’t think it is fair to assume that “many, if not most” catechists are not teaching the Real Presence. Your comments about “not in school or the home” are the real problem. One year my wife was the catechist for kids receiving First Communion. Most of the children were clueless about their faith. Why? First of all, because their parents hardly ever took them to Church. They put them into classes for First Communion, because they want their kids to be Catholic (and they know it is the right thing to do), but then they are gone. The same thing happens for Confirmation.

If a large number of Catholics are only catechized twice (First Communion and Confirmation) and then attend Mass once or twice a year until they go off to college, I think it is reasonable to assume that it is not necessarily the fault of the catechist.

It seems obvious (at least to me), that belief is lost because of decades of terrible Catechesis. Children are not being taught the truth in significant numbers and those kids become adults.

Most parishes just assume that volunteer catechists know and believe the faith, but it is my experience then many (if not most) do not.

Since the vast majority of Catholics now learn their faith in RE clases (not in school or the home), we see the fruit of that very poor base of formation.

Form the kids and this will change.

 

[HailMary]

Now I know you may say that there is no link, but I truly believe there is.
The decline in mass attendance, the decline in participation in social organizations, the decline in the family unit…all can be linked with the widespread use of contraception.

bingo.

 

[Tom317]

I don’t think it is fair to assume that “many, if not most” catechists are not teaching the Real Presence. Your comments about “not in school or the home” are the real problem. One year my wife was the catechist for kids receiving First Communion. Most of the children were clueless about their faith. Why? First of all, because their parents hardly ever took them to Church. They put them into classes for First Communion, because they want their kids to be Catholic (and they know it is the right thing to do), but then they are gone. The same thing happens for Confirmation.

If a large number of Catholics are only catechized twice (First Communion and Confirmation) and then attend Mass once or twice a year until they go off to college, I think it is reasonable to assume that it is not necessarily the fault of the catechist.

I do not agree.

 

[rlg94086]

I do not agree.

Okay.

 

[Tom317]

Okay.

Sorry for the short reply. I just believe that Catechesis is at the heart of this problem, from the clergy and from catechists. The parents who do not teach their kids properly also do not know their faith. We have at least 30 years of terrible catechesis to overcome, it starts with the clergy, goes then to the catechists and then to the parents…it will not be easy to turn the ship.

Put it this way: I do not know of even ONE person who truly believes that the Eucharist is Jesus’ Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, who then when on to dump the faith or to not practice the faith. Once a person knows/believes that it is Christ, it is nearly impossible to let go. We see the lack of knowledge/formation in all sorts of ways, yet it all comes down to horrible Catechesis.

 

[Tom317]

bingo.

The wide spread us of contraception is a sign of poor catechesis, people to not have the knowledge they need to form a true solid faith.

Do you really think people would dress and act the way they do during Mass if they truly believe they were receiving Jesus?

 

[BobP123]

Put it this way: I do not know of even ONE person who truly believes that the Eucharist is Jesus’ Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, who then when on to dump the faith or to not practice the faith. Once a person knows/believes that it is Christ, it is nearly impossible to let go.

Good point. Almost makes it necessary to count all fallen-away Catholics in all statistics that we compile on the topic.

 

[Tom317]

Good point. Almost makes it necessary to count all fallen-away Catholics in all statistics that we compile on the topic.

I agree, if you believe it is God, you are not going to walk away from God.

 

[HailMary]

The wide spread us of contraception is a sign of poor catechesis, people to not have the knowledge they need to form a true solid faith.

I don’t think its poor catechesis firstly. You ask an average contracepting Catholic, “does the Catholic Church allow contraception” and the responses I get are, “they do not allow it and I don’t need some old men who are in rome who never been married to tell me what to do”. From my experiences people know they are directly going against a teaching of the Church.

 

[rlg94086]

I understand the argument, and you may be correct. The problem is I have yet to see any evidence, even anecdotal, provided by anyone pointing at the catechists. If you have experienced a large number of catechists or priests teaching that the Eucharist is just a symbol, that would help. If you have a poll where the respondants say they were taught that the Eucharist is a symbol, that would help.

I agree that too many Catholics have incorrectly formed consciences. I also don’t understand how someone who believes in the Real Presence can fall away from the Church, but I believe it is because that person took what they learned and chose to believe differently. KofC660 made the point that rationalism is to blame, and I think that is part of the problem.

I have experienced priests and catechists who equivocate on contraception, so here we agree. But, I have never experienced it regarding the Real Presence.

How do you explain the rise in adoration in many parts of the country? Are people adoring a symbol?

Sorry for the short reply. I just believe that Catechesis is at the heart of this problem, from the clergy and from catechists. The parents who do not teach their kids properly also do not know their faith. We have at least 30 years of terrible catechesis to overcome, it starts with the clergy, goes then to the catechists and then to the parents…it will not be easy to turn the ship.

Put it this way: I do not know of even ONE person who truly believes that the Eucharist is Jesus’ Real Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, who then when on to dump the faith or to not practice the faith. Once a person knows/believes that it is Christ, it is nearly impossible to let go. We see the lack of knowledge/formation in all sorts of ways, yet it all comes down to horrible Catechesis.

 

[BobP123]

Maybe we all could take a lesson from this convert:

pblosser.blogspot.com/2007/06/from-protestantism-to-catholicism-from_12.html

 

[Tom317]

I understand the argument, and you may be correct. The problem is I have yet to see any evidence, even anecdotal, provided by anyone pointing at the catechists. If you have experienced a large number of catechists or priests teaching that the Eucharist is just a symbol, that would help. If you have a poll where the respondants say they were taught that the Eucharist is a symbol, that would help.

I agree that too many Catholics have incorrectly formed consciences. I also don’t understand how someone who believes in the Real Presence can fall away from the Church, but I believe it is because that person took what they learned and chose to believe differently. KofC660 made the point that rationalism is to blame, and I think that is part of the problem.

I have experienced priests and catechists who equivocate on contraception, so here we agree. But, I have never experienced it regarding the Real Presence.

How do you explain the rise in adoration in many parts of the country? Are people adoring a symbol?

I am not awar of surverys centered on catechists. I will only say that “if” the truth was being taught, we would not see 70-75% disbelief rates. There are three legs to formation, Clergy, Catechists, parents (no order of priority). I feel all three legs have failed miserably or else we would not be in the state we are. My personal experience with catechists and those who know catechists tells me that they are a product of the times and so are many Bishops, Priests, and Deacons.