The Real Presence - Why Has Belief Declined?

[salza]

It IS since Vatican II that the catholic church has come to this stage of fragmentation and diversity.
Prior to that the church has been One Holy Catholic and Apostolic. Never changing never erring holding strong to its tradition and dogmas handed down from the forefathers of the church.
In these times the church is not one (ecumenical) not holy (schismatic) and certainly not apostolic (but modernist) teaching heresies and leading the flock astray.
These churches today are cold and empty of the holiness and reverence and hold no greatness of awe in the sanctity of God’s house on earth.
Their flock have dispersed and souls have been taken over by satan as those in high places look not to God and adoration of HIM alone but to MEN and pleasing MEN in goodwill and harmony.
It has come to being we are no better than those in the old testament who worshipped false idols because in these times MEN are worshipping MEN.
Look no further than your masses.

 

[maryjk]

90% of Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Christians believe in the prescence of Jesus Christ the Son of God in the Eucharist.

If you would only follow the traditions of the 1st millenia your Church would not be sufferring.

There is nothing else to say…return to tradition…save the souls.

Do you have a quote or survey stating that or is it your opinion?

 

[Chris_McAvoy]

Sadly, it is my opinion…

I have now asked www.receive.org to do a survey about the “real presence”. I am not counting on them to do it…

James J. Zogby is a maronite. I’ll probably have to yell at him to do it instead, as he has the resources, being that its his profession to take polls.

 

[Icarus210]

From ripping up a loaf of bread in a pentecostal service as a “Remeberance” of Christ, to humbly opening your mouth to the sanctified hands of a priest who has the AUTHORITY to touch Our Lord is a gigantic step in seeing what The Real Presence of Christ can do to believers. There is NO way could I hold the Host in my hand, let alone take it away for future use. And I could not accept it from anyone other than an ordained priest.

Take that away and what have you left? Modernism/Protestanism.

ecumism *sic spelling, is building bridges… but ONE WAY traffic, to the Universal church… Not turning into something half way.

God Bless
Iccy

 

[abu_kamoon]

Lack of faith displayed by the Church leadership is relflected in lack of faith in the rest of us.

ابو كمون

 

[stmaria]

Perhaps, I have missed something, but, has a survey been done by pollsters showing that most people don’t believe in the Real Presence. If so, what survey and what were the results?

Here is an excerpt from an article by Traditional Catholic Pat Buchanon

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. **A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend. **

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. **By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus. **

olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

 

[labernadette]

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi…The law of prayer is the law of belief.
How a person worships not only shows what he believes, but ultimately, it can decide how he believes. Hence, the poor novus ordo mass which is so lacking, and which does not state all of the beliefs of our faith, has produced at least a generation or two of Catholics who really do not know their faith at all.
Most Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence nor have they been taught properly that** Christ is present Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist, **after all, it is rarely referred to as the “sacrifice” of the mass anymore, and it has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Pardon my French, but:

… and it has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal.

Balderdash.

You *may *be able to make a valid point somewhere. But setting up a strawman will not help you make it. It will only injure your credibility.

tee
Received accurate catechesis during the last forty-plus years

 

[rlg94086]

Pardon my French, but:

Balderdash.

That’s French? :ehh: How come I always picture a Brit with a monocle and a pith helmet saying that?

 

[BobP123]

Received accurate catechesis during the last forty-plus years

Then why are you holding back?

 

[labernadette]

Pardon my French, but:

Balderdash.

You *may *be able to make a valid point somewhere. But setting up a strawman will not help you make it. It will only injure your credibility.

tee
Received accurate catechesis during the last forty-plus years

Show me that straw man. I know, I grew up in the novus ordo. I also was not properly catechized, did not understand the Real Presence and ended up believing that all Christian sects (protestants) were good as long as they believed in Christ. The toll that Vatican II has taken on the faithful is monumental, the Catholic Church is in crisis, and you tell me I am setting up a straw man.

 

[Jakub]

If one reviews the one volume LOTH aka Christian Prayer for Corpus Christi, yesterdays evening intercessions it states “thanksgiving meal”…

Ecumenical dilution for the benefit of attracting Protestant converts maybe ?

james

 

[labernadette]

Yes, it is ecumenical dilution.
In my area, they aren’t even calling them churches or parishes anymore…they are “faith communities”.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Show me that straw man.

Here it is again:

… and it has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal.

Not my experience. Not the experience of others I know. An over general, indeed provably false, statement that “justifies” your complaining. O tempora, o mores!

I know, I grew up in the novus ordo. I also was not properly catechized, did not understand the Real Presence and ended up believing that all Christian sects (protestants) were good as long as they believed in Christ. The toll that Vatican II has taken on the faithful is monumental, the Catholic Church is in crisis, and you tell me I am setting up a straw man.

I am sorry to read of your experience, but it is not shared by all. I was properly catechized, as were many others I know.

And when you make a sweeping, provably false statement like *“it has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal” *it does nothing for your argument nor your credibility.

tee

 

[GregoryPalamas]

To trust that Christ is truly present there must be strong belief and consistent teaching ragarding the Incarnation and its effects upon the reclamation of humanity. I’m not sure this has consistently been taught. Whatever the reason, for many Catholics everything about catholicism is perceived as mere metaphor. That’s why so many laity seem more Protestant than Catholic.

CDL

 

[labernadette]

Here it is again:

Not my experience. Not the experience of others I know. An over general, indeed provably false, statement that “justifies” your complaining. O tempora, o mores!

I am sorry to read of your experience, but it is not shared by all. I was properly catechized, as were many others I know.

And when you make a sweeping, provably false statement like *“it has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal” *it does nothing for your argument nor your credibility.

tee

Did you read this, posted above?

"Here is an excerpt from an article by Traditional Catholic Pat Buchanon

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus."

If 70 percent of all Catholics in the the group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic” reminder of Jesus, we have a very grave problem. And that straw man you accused me of just went up in smoke. The statistics speak for themselves.

 

[rlg94086]

If 70 percent of all Catholics in the the group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic” reminder of Jesus, we have a very grave problem. And that straw man you accused me of just went up in smoke. The statistics speak for themselves.

You are making a false assumption that the reason was because they were taught incorrectly. That is probably not the case. I was taught some incorrect things in RCIA, but Real Presence was definitely correct. This is a fundamental belief of the Church, and it would be very rare for someone to be taught otherwise by a catechist.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by labernadette
… and it has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal.

Pardon my French, but:

Balderdash.

You *may *be able to make a valid point somewhere. But setting up a strawman will not help you make it. It will only injure your credibility.

tee
Received accurate catechesis during the last forty-plus years

---

Balderdash—you say: The following backs up labernadette’s statement.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20040528_lineamenta-xi-assembly_en.html

Lights and Shadows in Appreciating the Gift

1. Since the Second Vatican Council, the Pope and bishops have periodically made needed pronouncements to encourage application of the liturgical reform and to assess its results. In the Encyclical Letter Ecclesia De Eucharistia, Pope John Paul II, after having treated the positive elements or lights—primarily the participation of the faithful at the liturgy—passed “with profound grief” to the shadows, including, in some places, the complete abandonment of the practice of Eucharistic adoration and abuses which lead “to confusion with regard to sound faith and Catholic doctrine concerning this wonderful sacrament.”[92] The lights which come from the Eucharist as sacrament need to be separated from the shadows which come from human deeds. For example, there are indications in Eucharistic catechesis and practice of an overemphasis on a single aspect, e.g., on the Eucharist as meal, on the baptismal common priesthood, on the sufficiency of a Liturgy of the Word only and on ecumenical practices at Mass which are contrary to the faith and discipline of the Church.

 

[BobP123]

You are making a false assumption that the reason was because they were taught incorrectly. That is probably not the case. I was taught some incorrect things in RCIA, but Real Presence was definitely correct. This is a fundamental belief of the Church, and it would be very rare for someone to be taught otherwise by a catechist.

Well then you had a good teacher, what more needs to be said?

But even if you’ve had a good teacher and taught correctly, what’s to stop you from believing in the Real Presence after a certain amount of time and discussions amongst your peers? As I mentioned on another thread, I hadn’t received the sacraments for 26 years; I completely “forgot” about the Real Presence and I had been taught by strict pre-Vatican II British teachers and American nuns.

 

[Walking_Home]

Quote:
Originally Posted by labernadette
If 70 percent of all Catholics in the the group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic” reminder of Jesus, we have a very grave problem. And that straw man you accused me of just went up in smoke. The statistics speak for themselves.

You are making a false assumption that the reason was because they were taught incorrectly. That is probably not the case. I was taught some incorrect things in RCIA, but Real Presence was definitely correct. This is a fundamental belief of the Church, and it would be very rare for someone to be taught otherwise by a catechist.

---

The symbolic view is not as rare as you think.

vatican.va/roman_curia/synod/documents/rc_synod_doc_20050707_instrlabor-xi-assembly_en.html

Judge of the living and the dead, the God-Man, the Word-Made-Flesh and the One who mystically gathers together all the faithful into the great community of the Church. This is the way he presents himself at Mass.

1. Some Lineamenta responses, however, mention that, at times, a certain way of acting indicates that transubstantiation and the Real Presence are understood in a symbolic sense only. Many responses noted that some celebrants at the liturgy seem more like showmen, who must draw people’s attention to themselves, instead of servants of Christ, called to conduct the faithful to union with him.64 Obviously, such a way of acting has negative repercussions on the people who run the risk of being confused in both their faith in and understanding of the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament.