The Real Presence - Why Has Belief Declined?

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HailMary said:
I don’t think its poor catechesis firstly. You ask an average contracepting Catholic, “does the Catholic Church allow contraception” and the responses I get are, “they do not allow it and I don’t need some old men who are in rome who never been married to tell me what to do”. From my experiences people know they are directly going against a teaching of the Church.
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I agree. People know the Church teaching and they do it anyway…pretty much the definition of mortal sin.

Where the poor catechesis comes in on contraception is in the teaching of following your conscience. Some priests and catechists teach that you can contracept if your conscience has determined that it is okay (i.e. it’s between you and God). I have experienced this first-hand, and I have also experienced having a priest jump to approval of contraception due to the fact that it was only a side-effect, since it helped my wife with her acne.
 
rlg94086 said:
I don’t think it is fair to assume that “many, if not most” catechists are not teaching the Real Presence. Your comments about “not in school or the home” are the real problem. One year my wife was the catechist for kids receiving First Communion. Most of the children were clueless about their faith. Why? First of all, because their parents hardly ever took them to Church. They put them into classes for First Communion, because they want their kids to be Catholic (and they know it is the right thing to do), but then they are gone. The same thing happens for Confirmation.

If a large number of Catholics are only catechized twice (First Communion and Confirmation) and then attend Mass once or twice a year until they go off to college, I think it is reasonable to assume that it is not necessarily the fault of the catechist.
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You are so right. That is what I’ve experienced in the 7th grade faith formation class I taught. My class was in Sunday evening. I asked my students in the beginning of every class, how many of them have attended Saturday evening or Sunday Mass, and what is the content of the homily. I have 23 students in my class. There are always many of them don’t go to Mass. They cannot drive yet, if their parents don’t go, chances are they won’t either. Like you said, their parents want them to be Catholics, to be confirmed, but the parents themselves don’t practice their faith. How can we expect the children to learn if they have no role model at home?

I personally emphasize the Real Presence again and again through the year. In the last session of my class, I told the students a story of Eucharistic Miracle of Offida and emphasized “If you don’t remember anything from this class, I want you to remember at least one thing - that the Body of Christ we receive in the Holy Communion is the Real Presences of our Lord’s body, blood, soul and divinity.”

Do other faith formation teachers teach this? I don’t know. But I realize this is the most critical theme needs to be taught again and again and again.
 
rlg94086 said:
Bob,

Before I read the whole thing, can you highlight/quote the part about the Real Presence?

Robert
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In the section Waking Up.

But I was actually responding to the “proper catechisis” discussion.
 
BobP123 said:
In the section Waking Up.

But I was actually responding to the “proper catechisis” discussion.
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Well…I didn’t see anything about his personally being taught that the Eucharist is a symbol, so I’m not sure what you are referring to. That’s why quoting excerpts is helpful.

What I did read in it is very similar to the posts made by Swiss Guard regarding the effect of reverence in the liturgy itself.
 
rlg94086 said:
I agree. People know the Church teaching and they do it anyway…pretty much the definition of mortal sin.

Where the poor catechesis comes in on contraception is in the teaching of following your conscience. Some priests and catechists teach that you can contracept if your conscience has determined that it is okay (i.e. it’s between you and God). I have experienced this first-hand, and I have also experienced having a priest jump to approval of contraception due to the fact that it was only a side-effect, since it helped my wife with her acne.
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Again, I disagree. Would you ever contracept?
 
rlg94086,

Trying to stay on topic, my point is that people who have a sound foundation of knowledge tend to also have a belief in the Real Presence. It is one thing for people to know what the Church “says” about any given topic, but it is quite another matter for them to actually know the reasons why. A well formed conscience cannot happened unless the person first has a well formed base of knowledge and that is where Catechesis comes in.

Again, improve overall Catechesis, and the Real Presence numbers (in terms of believing Catholics) will rise quite sharply–imo.
 
Tom,

Improving catechesis may help, but people have to be there to receive the instruction. Knowing what the Church says, is fundamentally what a catechist is responsible for teaching. I think some environmental factors (i.e. liturgy) also have a big impact. Parents and secular schools (not something a catechist or priest can control) have a bigger impact than the catechist or priest if the individual Catholic isn’t attending Mass because they have a ton more “face time” as we call it in sales.

So, to blame the decline of the belief in The Real Presence on poor instruction is missing the point. Good instruction can be ignored, forgotten, or never received because the person wasn’t there to be instructed. This is the heart of the problem. Now, we may have a chicken/egg problem here, which leads me to agree with the conclusions of Swiss Guard that the environmental changes in the liturgy - both physical changes (smells and bells, priest orientation, vestments, etc.) and less emphasis on the sacrifice, more on the meal - are a stronger cause than instruction.

Pax,
Robert
Tom317 said:
rlg94086,

Trying to stay on topic, my point is that people who have a sound foundation of knowledge tend to also have a belief in the Real Presence. It is one thing for people to know what the Church “says” about any given topic, but it is quite another matter for them to actually know the reasons why. A well formed conscience cannot happened unless the person first has a well formed base of knowledge and that is where Catechesis comes in.

Again, improve overall Catechesis, and the Real Presence numbers (in terms of believing Catholics) will rise quite sharply–imo.
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rlg94086 said:
Tom,

Improving catechesis may help, but people have to be there to receive the instruction. Knowing what the Church says, is fundamentally what a catechist is responsible for teaching. I think some environmental factors (i.e. liturgy) also have a big impact. Parents and secular schools (not something a catechist or priest can control) have a bigger impact than the catechist or priest if the individual Catholic isn’t attending Mass because they have a ton more “face time” as we call it in sales.

So, to blame the decline of the belief in The Real Presence on poor instruction is missing the point. Good instruction can be ignored, forgotten, or never received because the person wasn’t there to be instructed. This is the heart of the problem. Now, we may have a chicken/egg problem here, which leads me to agree with the conclusions of Swiss Guard that the environmental changes in the liturgy - both physical changes (smells and bells, priest orientation, vestments, etc.) and less emphasis on the sacrifice, more on the meal - are a stronger cause than instruction.

Pax,
Robert
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You have to know God to believe in God, it is that simple.

You believe in the Real Presence, so do I; however, I would probably not believe in the Real Presence if I had been formed by the clergy, Catechists and parents of the last thirty years…they would not have given me any reason to believe (this does not apply to all clergy, etc.).

We are spiritual beings, yet we are also rational beings and most of us intuitively approach things in our lives from a rationalist sense, and that means we must have knowledge of the faith in order to develop a true and lasting faith. Ask yourself, why do converts from Protestant faiths seem to be so on fire? I believe it is because they already have a ton of Biblical knowledge that is given a fuller and more rich meaning when they study the Catholic faith–knowledge leads many people to the Catholic Church, a lack of knowledge leads many Catholics away from the Church. Sadly, most people who leave the Church would never have left if they had simply known the fullness of truth.

Catechesis is a key. Knowledge forms the foundation for a faith that never dimishes.

As for your comments about the liturgy, imo, when people have deep knowledge of the faith they will seek a proper and true liturgy, they will not want second best or a perverted liturgy because they KNOW better.

The Real Presence is a tough subject and is a stumbling block for many people, yet the reason it is a stumbling block is quite often a lack of knowledge.
 
rlg94086 said:
The survey tells you how many people believe the Eucharist is only a symbol. It doesn’t tell you where they get that idea. They very well may have been taught about the Real Presence when they were kids and don’t remember what was taught.

The same poll said only 1 in 4 (25%) attend Mass regularly. Since the poll is of “all Catholics” and 75% don’t attend Mass on Sunday, I don’t think it is coincidental that 70% don’t believe in the Real Presence. If it was a poll of Catholics who attend Mass regularly and 70% said they don’t believe in the Real Presence, you would have a better case.
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You’ve got your polls confused. It is not the same poll. So your analysis above does not apply.
The University of Notre Dame survey–stated 1 in 4 attend Mass.
The New York Times poll—stated 70% of (18-24) viewed the Eucharist as symbolic.

Below is a survey in just one diocese (Rochester, NY). Note —this one does say “attendees”-- and 63% of those attendees–believe the Eucharist is symbolic.

losangelesmission.com/ed/news/0997news.htm

A July 25 Tidings feature assures us that, while many Catholics are confused about what they are supposed to believe about the Eucharist, Father Rausch “makes it a point to emphasize to his undergraduate students at Loyola Marymount University that the real presence of Christ is actualized in the Eucharist during the Mass.” The piece lamented a recent survey in the Diocese of Rochester, New York, where 34 percent of Catholic Church attendees believed in the Real Presence, while 63 percent thought the Eucharist is just symbolic of Jesus. In the article, Fr. Rausch quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church that “by the word of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit” the bread and wine become Christ’s body and blood."
 
The link labernadette provided says this:
Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend. Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.
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olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

Now, it is two polls (Gallup and NYT), but I don’t see anything referencing the NY Times poll as being a poll of Mass-attending Catholics.

You have now provided a new poll of Catholics in Rochester, NY. So, your conclusion may be valid in Rochester, NY. 🤷 I don’t know what they teach in their parishes. Are you saying that Rochester, NY is indicative of the whole country?

Should I base my understanding of the Catholic Church on the parishes I went to in California, or on the parish I go to now? Have you ever heard the blind man/elephant analogy?
Walking_Home said:
You’ve got your polls confused. It is not the same poll. So your analysis above does not apply.
The University of Notre Dame survey–stated 1 in 4 attend Mass.
The New York Times poll—stated 70% of (18-24) viewed the Eucharist as symbolic.

Below is a survey in just one diocese (Rochester, NY). Note —this one does say “attendees”-- and 63% of those attendees–believe the Eucharist is symbolic.

losangelesmission.com/ed/news/0997news.htm

A July 25 Tidings feature assures us that, while many Catholics are confused about what they are supposed to believe about the Eucharist, Father Rausch “makes it a point to emphasize to his undergraduate students at Loyola Marymount University that the real presence of Christ is actualized in the Eucharist during the Mass.” The piece lamented a recent survey in the Diocese of Rochester, New York, where 34 percent of Catholic Church attendees believed in the Real Presence, while 63 percent thought the Eucharist is just symbolic of Jesus. In the article, Fr. Rausch quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church that “by the word of Christ and the invocation of the Holy Spirit” the bread and wine become Christ’s body and blood."
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rlg94086 said:
The survey tells you how many people believe the Eucharist is only a symbol. It doesn’t tell you where they get that idea. They very well may have been taught about the Real Presence when they were kids and don’t remember what was taught.

The same poll said only 1 in 4 (25%) attend Mass regularly. Since the poll is of “all Catholics” and 75% don’t attend Mass on Sunday, I don’t think it is coincidental that 70% don’t believe in the Real Presence. If it was a poll of Catholics who attend Mass regularly and 70% said they don’t believe in the Real Presence, you would have a better case.
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100 percent of Catholics that attend the Traditional Mass believe in the Real Presence
 
belief has probably declined because in many ways christ is not reverenced with the same reverential he was once given in the “elder days of yore.” There has been a de-emphasis on the majest and glory of our immanuel God, our Lord Jesus Christ for whose honor in the blessed sacrament we out to give our lives, like the english martyrs. I would rather shed my blood on the altar defending the host from sacrilege than to unworthy men to profane it. Hence my problem with NO masses…😉
 
rlg94086 said:
The link labernadette provided says this:

olrl.org/misc/jones_stats.shtml

Now, it is two polls (Gallup and NYT), but I don’t see anything referencing the NY Times poll as being a poll of Mass-attending Catholics.

You have now provided a new poll of Catholics in Rochester, NY. So, your conclusion may be valid in Rochester, NY. 🤷 I don’t know what they teach in their parishes. Are you saying that Rochester, NY is indicative of the whole country?

Should I base my understanding of the Catholic Church on the parishes I went to in California, or on the parish I go to now? Have you ever heard the blind man/elephant analogy?
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Well—labernadette and I have provided numbers. If you and tee --want to dispute them—then provide some of your own. Just in this thread—rein knows of a DRE who teaches that belief in the Real Presence is not required----and fin spent years in Catholic school—was not taught the our Lord was truely present in the Eucharist.

Since you brought up California—I do remember a problem Mother Angelica had with a certain bishop of that area–concerning the Real Presence.

As I said before: You have not provided anything to the contrary.
 
My opinion is that I am not sure what has caused the decline in belief, but I believe it is a number of factors - environmental, cultural, etc. How would you like me to provide proof of that? 😛

As far as your opinion, you are also welcome to hold that view, but I won’t agree with you (not that it matters) without better evidence. I am glad you posted some anecdotal evidence from rein and fin, as that at least gives a basis for your conclusion. My anecdotal experience is different, which is the reason my conclusion is different. Now, if either of us had hard data, we would be dangerous. 😃
Walking_Home said:
Well—labernadette and I have provided numbers. If you and tee --want to dispute them—then provide some of your own. Just in this thread—rein knows of a DRE who teaches that belief in the Real Presence is not required----and fin spent years in Catholic school—was not taught the our Lord was truely present in the Eucharist.

Since you brought up California—I do remember a problem Mother Angelica had with a certain bishop of that area–concerning the Real Presence.

As I said before: You have not provided anything to the contrary.
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rlg94086 said:
My opinion is that I am not sure what has caused the decline in belief, but I believe it is a number of factors - environmental, cultural, etc. How would you like me to provide proof of that? 😛
As far as your opinion, you are also welcome to hold that view, but I won’t agree with you (not that it matters) without better evidence. I am glad you posted some anecdotal evidence from rein and fin, as that at least gives a basis for your conclusion. My anecdotal experience is different, which is the reason my conclusion is different. Now, if either of us had hard data, we would be dangerous. 😃
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Well— I can agree with you that it is enviromental and cultural. The environment and culture of the Church these last 40 or so years-- have not been conducive to propagating the Catholic Faith
 
Yea! We agree! :dancing:
Walking_Home said:
Well— I can agree with you that it is enviromental and cultural. The environment and culture of the Church these last 40 or so years-- have not been conducive to propagating the Catholic Faith
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