The Real Presence - Why Has Belief Declined?

[brotherhrolf]

I made my First Communion in 1958. This is what I know. The Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ. He or she who partakes unworthily (i.e. not in a state of grace) brings condemnation upon themselves. In all of my 55 years of life, I have never received Our Lord when I was not in a state of grace. The horror of doing so is just that - a very real, palatable horror. I don’t think that I am unique. I would die before I received the Eucharist unworthily. That’s not hyperbole, it’s fact.

We have folks questioning Benediction as being host worship! Lord have mercy, I will not receive in the hand and I would far prefer to receive my Lord kneeling as befits me. Domine, non sum dignus. Lord, I am not worthy! And I am not. I am not worthy. These are the words of Cornelius, a Roman centurion of faith. He had no idea of the Eucharist. None. But he knew Our Lord. He knew, however, that he was was in the presence of the divine. “Domine, non sum dignus” Lord I am not worthy.

Domine, non sum dignus. I’m not worthy either.

I grew up with a pre-Vatican II understanding of Eucharistic Presence. I simply can’t explain the difference between 1962 and 1967 and what came after. But I WILL NOT receive the Eucharist unworthily.

 

[BobP123]

Excellent post, brother.

I’m noticing more and more (at least in the TLM’s that I attend) the congregation is saying with the priest “Domine, non sum dignus, ut intres sub tectum meum, sed tantum dic verbo et sanabitur anima mea.” Not that I like not following rubrics, but I hope this practice of the congregation praying along doesn’t get forbidden.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Did you read this, posted above?

None of this, posted above, matters. I did not address any of this, posted above.

-]"Here is an excerpt from an article by Traditional Catholic Pat Buchanon

Attendance at Mass. A 1958 Gallup Poll reported that three in four Catholics attended church on Sundays. A recent study by the University of Notre Dame found that only one in four now attend.

Only 10 percent of lay religious teachers now accept church teaching on contraception. Fifty-three percent believe a Catholic can have an abortion and remain a good Catholic. Sixty-five percent believe that Catholics may divorce and remarry. Seventy-seven percent believe one can be a good Catholic without going to mass on Sundays. By one New York Times poll, 70 percent of all Catholics in the age group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus."/-]

PS. Did you see [post=2259482]this[/post], posted above (and a couple of weeks ago, I might add), where I pointed to some very similar statistics that [post=61501]I posted here[/post] years ago?

If 70 percent of all Catholics in the the group 18 to 44 believe the Eucharist is merely a “symbolic” reminder of Jesus, we have a very grave problem. And that straw man you accused me of just went up in smoke. The statistics speak for themselves.

If you had read my post, posted above, you would know that I did not say that was a strawman argument. :doh2: I said this was a strawman argument, when you said:

… and it has been represented for the last forty-plus years as

nothing more than a meal

.

Completely unsupportable. Demonstrably false.

Sheesh,
tee

 

[labernadette]

None of this, posted above, matters. I did not address any of this, posted above.

PS. Did you see [post=2259482]this[/post], posted above (and a couple of weeks ago, I might add), where I pointed to some very similar statistics that [post=61501]I posted here[/post] years ago?

If you had read my post, posted above, you would know that I did not say that was a strawman argument. :doh2: I said this was a strawman argument, when you said:

Completely unsupportable. Demonstrably false.

Sheesh,
tee

Thinking this out logically:

70% of all Catholics in the age group of 18-44 believe that the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

Therefore, it follows:

This 70% would of been under instruction of the church and their priests within the last forty years…the Vatican II aftermath years.

And so it may be concluded without need of angry bold letters:

That for the last forty years, the idea of the Eucharist as a “meal” has successfully been put forth by the pope, bishops and priests of the Catholic church.

 

[BobP123]

Not COMPLETELY unsupported, tee.

cmri.org/95prog6.htm

In the Novus Ordo Mass, we find a new definition of the Mass in the General Preface, which reads:

“The Lord’s Supper is the assembly or gathering together of the people of God, with a priest presiding to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. For this reason the promise of Christ is particularly true of a local congregation of the Church: ‘Where two or three are gathered in my name there am I in their midst’” (General Instruction to the Novus Ordo, April 6, 1969).

Notice the terminology “priest presiding” and the Scriptural reference, “where two or three are gathered in My Name.” In the Novus Ordo, no longer does the priest offer the Holy Sacrifice and consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in persona Christi (in the Person of Christ); now he merely presides over the assembly, and the assembly, the people gathered together, bring about a spiritual presence of Christ. This new definition of the Mass is a Lutheran definition!

Monsignor Gamber points this out too in his book The Reform of the Roman Liturgy as well but I’m too lazy to retype it.

What’s more, Pope Paul VI signed the document containing the above definition.

What’s interesting is the definition was changed later; yet no words in the liturgical text were made to reflect the revised definition. So can you blame anyone for thinking it’s just a meal? After all, the Vatican “approved” the definition, did it not?

 

[Walking_Home]

Not COMPLETELY unsupported, tee.

cmri.org/95prog6.htm

Quote:
In the Novus Ordo Mass, we find a new definition of the Mass in the General Preface, which reads:

“The Lord’s Supper is the assembly or gathering together of the people of God, with a priest presiding to celebrate the memorial of the Lord. For this reason the promise of Christ is particularly true of a local congregation of the Church: ‘Where two or three are gathered in my name there am I in their midst’” (General Instruction to the Novus Ordo, April 6, 1969).

Notice the terminology “priest presiding” and the Scriptural reference, “where two or three are gathered in My Name.” In the Novus Ordo, no longer does the priest offer the Holy Sacrifice and consecrate the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ in persona Christi (in the Person of Christ); now he merely presides over the assembly, and the assembly, the people gathered together, bring about a spiritual presence of Christ. This new definition of the Mass is a Lutheran definition!

Monsignor Gamber points this out too in his book The Reform of the Roman Liturgy as well but I’m too lazy to retype it.

What’s more, Pope Paul VI signed the document containing the above definition.

What’s interesting is the definition was changed later; yet no words in the liturgical text were made to reflect the revised definition. So can you blame anyone for thinking it’s just a meal? After all, the Vatican “approved” the definition, did it not?

---

 

[tee_eff_em]

Thinking this out logically:

70% of all Catholics in the age group of 18-44 believe that the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

Therefore, it follows:

This 70% would of been under instruction of the church and their priests within the last forty years…the Vatican II aftermath years.

And so it may be concluded without need of angry bold letters:

That for the last forty years, the idea of the Eucharist as a “meal” has successfully been put forth by the pope, bishops and priests of the Catholic church.

Stop putting words in my mouth, and think this out logically:

P: “it [the Mass] has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal.”

Q: “tee, and many of his companions, have in fact been catechized in the last forty-plus years that the Mass is a sacrifice”

P and Q cannot both be true. I assure you that Q is true. Ergo P is not true.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

tee

 

[labernadette]

Stop putting words in my mouth, and think this out logically:

P: “it [the Mass] has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal.”

Q: “tee, and many of his companions, have in fact been catechized in the last forty-plus years that the Mass is a sacrifice”

P and Q cannot both be true. I assure you that Q is true. Ergo P is not true.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

tee

What isn’t true is that you are being honest. I am glad that you were properly catechized, and I am sure you and your friends are not alone, however, the statistics speak volumes and it is evident that you were in the minority.

 

[Walking_Home]

Stop putting words in my mouth, and think this out logically:

P: “it [the Mass] has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal.”

Q: “tee, and many of his companions, have in fact been catechized in the last forty-plus years that the Mass is a sacrifice”

P and Q cannot both be true. I assure you that Q is true. Ergo P is not true.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum

tee

---

P and Q can both be true—when Q is in the 30% that believes in the Real Presence. The 30% actually received good instruction—but overall 70% does reflect a breakdown of instruction. Who has the responsibility for this instruction—the priests, bishops, and the Pope.

Quote=labernadette
Thinking this out logically:

70% of all Catholics in the age group of 18-44 believe that the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

Therefore, it follows:

This 70% would of been under instruction of the church and their priests within the last forty years…the Vatican II aftermath years.

And so it may be concluded without need of angry bold letters:

That for the last forty years, the idea of the Eucharist as a “meal” has successfully been put forth by the pope, bishops and priests of the Catholic church.

 

[AveVerumCorpus]

When I was a postulant for a RC religious order, I was trying to explain the teaching of the RCC regarding the Real Presence and transubstantiation. Unfortunately, I was shot down by THE PRIOR of the community, who stated that I was mistaken, and that the sacramental presence of Christ is like “A LOVE LETTER” ie: the essence of the lover is there, without the lover being physically present. I was so shocked, I could not speak. This is why RC faithful are unknowingly aspousing heresy.

I am still tickled pink that it takes an Anglican (like myself) to explain to some misinformed Roman Catholics, the teaching of the RCC (and the belief of ALL Anglo-Catholics like myself) that Christ is fully present in body and blood, soul and divinity under the eucharistic species. After explaining it, I invite them to benediction of the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[Jakub]

Brotherhrolf,

Indeed, 1958 & 64 are remembered years…

james

side note - one just needs to watch those returning from communion and how they carry themselves, it becomes evident who believes they have received the Lord…

 

[rlg94086]

I’m with tee on this one…your and labernadette’s logic is flawed. There are plenty of polls showing how clueless the general public is in how many planets there are, geography, etc. This is not because the teachers are not teaching the correct number of planets, or basic geography. It is because it didn’t sink in and/or the student didn’t care and/or the student didn’t remember.

To make your point, you would need to survey catechists and see what percentage are teaching the Real Presence. I’m guessing the number would be quite high.

---

P and Q can both be true—when Q is in the 30% that believes in the Real Presence. The 30% actually received good instruction—but overall 70% does reflect a breakdown of orthodox instruction. Who has the responsibility for orthodox instruction—the priests, bishops, and our Pope.

Quote=labernadette
Thinking this out logically:

70% of all Catholics in the age group of 18-44 believe that the Eucharist is a “symbolic reminder” of Jesus.

Therefore, it follows:

This 70% would of been under instruction of the church and their priests within the last forty years…the Vatican II aftermath years.

And so it may be concluded without need of angry bold letters:

That for the last forty years, the idea of the Eucharist as a “meal” has successfully been put forth by the pope, bishops and priests of the Catholic church.

 

[Walking_Home]

I’m with tee on this one…your and labernadette’s logic is flawed. There are plenty of polls showing how clueless the general public is in how many planets there are, geography, etc. This is not because the teachers are not teaching the correct number of planets, or basic geography. It is because it didn’t sink in and/or the student didn’t care and/or the student didn’t remember.

To make your point, you would need to survey catechists and see what percentage are teaching the Real Presence. I’m guessing the number would be quite high.

---

You are guessing because you do not actually know. Now labernadette—did provided numbers. It would be up to you and Tee to provide evidence to the contrary. Depending on your guess —does not make it.

 

[rlg94086]

---

You are guessing because you do not actually know. Now labernadette—did provided numbers. It would be up to you and Tee to provide evidence to the contrary. Depending on your guess —does not make it.

You are correct…I am guessing, but you don’t know either. The survey information laberbadette offered does not logically lead to your conclusion. That is the only argument I am making. If you can support your argument with data that actually leads logically to your conclusion, I will accept your conclusion.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Fr. Karl Lenhardt, ICRSS and rector of the Oratory of St. Francis De Sales in St. Louis spoke recently about the center of the Catholic faith. He said it is God’s presence among us. God really came down to earth and took our human nature in the Person of Jesus Christ.

How does Christ remain with us? He is present body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

How is it that many Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence? Is it because of the elimination of the Communion rail? Is it because of Communion in the hand? Is it because of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion?

No, none of those things I mentioned above are the reason for a decline in belief in the Real Presence. They are merely symptoms.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

These symptoms are caused by the way we pray. The Mass is not prayed as what it primarily is - Jesus Christ offering Himself to the Father through the Holy Spirit by the hands of the priest. What is emphasized in its place is a meal. While it is true the Mass is a meal, where we are not only fed by Our Lord, we are fed Our Lord. However, the sacrificial aspect has been either de-emphasized or ignored. This is not universal nor is it the teaching of Holy Mother Church but it has been going on for a long time.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

How does this happen? How can the most essential teaching of the Catholic Church become distorted to the point it is implicitly denied? It’s not something that happens overnight and it’s not accomplished by lies. Lies are easy to refute. It’s done slowly and by using half-truths.

When’s the last time anyone has heard the Mass referred to as the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? I hope very often at your parish. However, in most parishes the term “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” was replaced with “Eucharistic Celebration.” Is it a lie to call the Mass a Eucharistic Celebration? No. When the “celebration” part becomes the only part that’s emphasized, the “sacrifice” becomes implicitly denied.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

Having the faithful have become accumstomed to the term “Eucharistic Celebration” rather than “Holy Sacrifice of the Mass” makes it possible subtly change their minds and hearts. Don’t preach any homilies about the Real Presence. Emphasize the corporal works of mercy and de-emphasize the spiritual works of mercy. Is it wrong to emphasize the corporal works of mercy? No. Corporal works of mercy are essential to our faith. Corporal works of mercy separated from Jesus Christ becomes social work.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

Sacred music plays an important part in worship. St. Augustine said that when you sing, you pray twice. This is one way to de-emphasize the Real Presence. Traditional hymns such as *Panis Angelicus, Ave Verum Corpus, *and Pange Lingua are replaced by hymns like *One Bread One Body, I am the Bread of Life, *and Gift of Finest Wheat. Are any of the last three hymns contrary to the Catholic faith? No. However, they emphasize the meal aspect of the Mass rather than the sacrificial aspect as do the first three hymns. Yes, I realize panis angelicus translates to bread of angels. The next line in the hymn translates to “the Bread of Heaven ends all prefigurations.” It also speaks of worship.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

Continued in next post…

 

[Walking_Home]

You are correct…I am guessing, but you don’t know either. The survey information laberbadette offered does not logically lead to your conclusion. That is the only argument I am making. If you can support your argument with data that actually leads logically to your conclusion, I will accept your conclusion.

---

How doesn’t it.

 

[Swiss_Guard]

Contiuned from previous post…

Hearing is just one of the senses that is effected. Sight comes next. Church “wreckovations” are essential to destroying belief in the Real Presence. Tear down majestic high altars and replace them with altars that look more like tables. Build “churches in the round” where the whole “community” gathers around the Lord’s “table.” Remove the communion rail, the visible symbol between the sacramental priesthood and the priesthood of the faithful. Remove statues as well because they remind us that the Mass is where heaven and earth meet.

I have also seen this step taken even further. Many new churches are built with daily Mass chapels. These chapels have the altar on the same level as the faithful. The priest doesn’t ascend to the altar, he’s on the same level with the faithful. This further blurs the line between the sacramental priesthood and the priesthood of the faithful.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

The sense of smell is next. Incense is no longer used. No reason to use incense if there is no sacrifice. Incense also represents the our prayers ascending to heaven. A meal doesn’t have prayers ascending to heaven. A simple grace before meal suffices.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

It’s little wonder that abuses of extraordinary ministers of Communion happen. It’s little wonder that Communion in the hand becomes the way the majority of the faithful receive Our Lord. It’s little wonder the tabernacle is moved to some obscure part of the church. It’s little wonder some churches have removed the kneelers. It’s little wonder churches are locked once the last Mass is over. When the meal aspect is over emphasized to the point that the sacrificial aspect is implicitly denied, this becomes the logical consequence.

Does this mean what I have described happens in every parish? No. It doesn’t happen in my parish. The priests still emphasize the sacrificial aspect of the Mass. The priest begins Mass by ascending to the altar. We have priests and deacons as ministers of Holy Communion. We also have the first Perpetual Adoration chapel in the Archdiocese of Chicago. We have had Perpetual Adoration in our parish since June 1986.

If your diocese doesn’t have any of the problems I have described, don’t ever leave it and pray for your bishop. However, even the best dioceses have some of the problems.

It’s not balderdash to say that the sacrificial aspect of the Mass has been de-emphasized. It’s not a sign of an immature faith to want to worship in a church adorned with a beautiful high altar, statues, and a communion rail. It’s also not true that there aren’t any people inside the Church who want to make the Mass into their own personal prayer.

I want to point out that I never mentioned the Novus Ordo Mass or Vatican II until now. My parish has only had the Tridentine Mass for just under two years. All of this happened while having the Novus Ordo Mass exclusively for the majority of the 21 years of Perpetual Adoration.

I ask those who would respond negatively to my post to ask themselves a question: Is there anything I said that is not happening right now? Look around your own parish. I’ll guess there are very few on this forum who either don’t belong to a parish or have been to a parish where what I have stated isn’t going on.

If there is anyone who lives in a diocese (other than Lincoln, NE) where none of the aformentioned things are happening, let me know where it is so I can move there.

Take an honest look at what is going on in your parish and diocese and then take an honest look at how it has effected the way you worship. We can’t have our senses assaulted like this without being effected.

LEX ORANDI, LEX CREDENDI

 

[Nino]

Lex Orandi, Lex Credendi…The law of prayer is the law of belief.
How a person worships not only shows what he believes, but ultimately, it can decide how he believes. Hence, the poor novus ordo mass which is so lacking, and which does not state all of the beliefs of our faith, has produced at least a generation or two of Catholics who really do not know their faith at all.
Most Catholics do not believe in the Real Presence nor have they been taught properly that** Christ is present Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity in the Eucharist, **after all, it is rarely referred to as the “sacrifice” of the mass anymore, and it has been represented for the last forty-plus years as nothing more than a meal.

 

[Nino]

Yes, Vatican 2 was a complete disaster for those who believe in the RCC and a victory for those gnostic-new agers who love watering down any Truth to further corrupt souls . The constant flicks,books and songs lampooning anyone who is ‘fundamentalist’ or ‘traditionalist’ has done its work well! The 'tolerant’bishops who allow the distribution of the Sacred Host to anyone …esp.politicians who openly support abortion is a main source of…'well,its only a symbol I guess after all.its best to just let anyone come up and receive…no confession and no guilt…its just a meal of sorts anyway…None of this happened under the great Pope PiusX11…thats one reason he is hated so…Nino

 

[rlg94086]

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How doesn’t it.

The survey tells you how many people believe the Eucharist is only a symbol. It doesn’t tell you where they get that idea. They very well may have been taught about the Real Presence when they were kids and don’t remember what was taught.

The same poll said only 1 in 4 (25%) attend Mass regularly. Since the poll is of “all Catholics” and 75% don’t attend Mass on Sunday, I don’t think it is coincidental that 70% don’t believe in the Real Presence. If it was a poll of Catholics who attend Mass regularly and 70% said they don’t believe in the Real Presence, you would have a better case.