The Real Presence - Why Has Belief Declined?

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mrs_abbott said:
So newly ordained priests aren’t receiving proper instruction in the seminaries? How is this being allowed to happen? Do the local bishops not care anymore?
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Oh they care alright. But it’s the opposite of what concerned catholics care about.
 
TNT said:
Oh they care alright. But it’s the opposite of what concerned catholics care about.
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Actually, I think a lot of work has been done at the seminary level. Future Priests should be far better formed as a result.
 
When I was much younger, I dated a man older than I who insisted that the Eucharist was “just a symbol.” This was a real stickin gpoint in our relationship; he even asked me to “prove it.”

No matter what resources I showed him, or no matter how I did it, he refused to accept that the Eucharist was the real body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus. I felt that there was no excuse for this, as we both went through Catholic school and received the sacraments.

Perhaps it was the ‘hardcore’ nuns in my parochial school (in the 80s), but my classmates and I were well catechised to know that, at least.

For those who blame poor formation in not understanding the Eucharist, I don’t understand the disparity among separate dioceses - why isn’t there a standard in education, whether parocial school or CCD, across the board?
 
stbruno said:
Now I know you may say that there is no link, but I truly believe there is.
The decline in mass attendance, the decline in participation in social organizations, the decline in the family unit…all can be linked with the widespread use of contraception.

Pope Paul VI in his encyclical of Humanae Vitae even predicted that this would happen if contraception became widespread…and undeniably it has.
Christ said to us:
"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church. . . Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the Church. .

When contraception was introduced, men no longer love their wives in the same way…divorce increased with contraception, adultery increased, spousal abuse increased as well as the upswing of homosexuality. I wish I could site the place I read the stats on this one but it is true.

When man no longer believes that he should love his wife as Christ loved the church…it follows that he does not love the church either. What the father & mother teach, the children imitate. More reasons to pray.
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Thank you stbruno.
 
stbruno said:
Now I know you may say that there is no link, but I truly believe there is.
The decline in mass attendance, the decline in participation in social organizations, the decline in the family unit…all can be linked with the widespread use of contraception.

Pope Paul VI in his encyclical of Humanae Vitae even predicted that this would happen if contraception became widespread…and undeniably it has.
Christ said to us:
"Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the Church. . . Even so husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no man ever hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ does the Church. .

When contraception was introduced, men no longer love their wives in the same way…divorce increased with contraception, adultery increased, spousal abuse increased as well as the upswing of homosexuality. I wish I could site the place I read the stats on this one but it is true.

When man no longer believes that he should love his wife as Christ loved the church…it follows that he does not love the church either. What the father & mother teach, the children imitate. More reasons to pray.
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There may be, in fact, a link, but don’t you think that those practicing contraception should be staying away from communion altogether, and whether or not they believe in the Real Presence is really a moot issue with them?

I think the OP directed the question of believing in the Real Presence to those who do receive and are (otherwise) faithful Catholics.
 
I do marriage prep and baptism prep with my spouse. It is rare to find an intact family unit doing baptism. More and more are coming for baptism who are single parents or cohabitating parents. If couples are married less than 20% are married sacramentally. Also when we do marriage prep, less than 15% of the couples we prepare are not cohabitating. When we explain why they are not able to receive the Holy Eucharist because they are in mortal sin…they appear as if they never heard that explanation and certainly do not agree with it. Supposedly these are couples who wish to still retain a connection to the church, otherwise why would they bring their child to be baptised.

My own godchild (niece) is marrying this fall, outside of the church and I have explained to her as well as her mother, my sister how tragic this would be if she not be able to participate in the sacraments. My sister’s response was indignation…That is not my God. And when I explained it to my niece, she said, that’s okay, I don’t really go to church or believe. My heart was crushed and she went to 12 years of Catholic school. I guess she was just going through the motions, as well my sister. More reasons to pray.
 
stbruno said:
I do marriage prep and baptism prep with my spouse. It is rare to find an intact family unit doing baptism. More and more are coming for baptism who are single parents or cohabitating parents. If couples are married less than 20% are married sacramentally. Also when we do marriage prep, less than 15% of the couples we prepare are not cohabitating. When we explain why they are not able to receive the Holy Eucharist because they are in mortal sin…they appear as if they never heard that explanation and certainly do not agree with it. Supposedly these are couples who wish to still retain a connection to the church, otherwise why would they bring their child to be baptised.

My own godchild (niece) is marrying this fall, outside of the church and I have explained to her as well as her mother, my sister how tragic this would be if she not be able to participate in the sacraments. My sister’s response was indignation…That is not my God. And when I explained it to my niece, she said, that’s okay, I don’t really go to church or believe. My heart was crushed and she went to 12 years of Catholic school. I guess she was just going through the motions, as well my sister. More reasons to pray.
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I am starting to think—Catholic schools now a days—are detrimental to the Faith.
 
Vatican II was misunderstood, mis-applied. V2 did not do away with the Latin mass or the various devotions. The religous education classes held at many parishes throughout the U.S. are very poorly presented by lay persons who are given a great deal of power on what is presented. Religous in the parish schools are a rarity.
 
BobP123 said:
There may be, in fact, a link, but don’t you think that those practicing contraception should be staying away from communion altogether, and whether or not they believe in the Real Presence is really a moot issue with them?

I think the OP directed the question of believing in the Real Presence to those who do receive and are (otherwise) faithful Catholics.
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Sadly, most of those who are contracepting are receiving the Eucharist!
 
I don’t know if this is going too far (imo, not at all) but perhaps the faithful should ask Rome to require a standard basic curriculum to be followed in every catechism class. And make that a requirement to maintain the priviledge of certification to teach the faith.

Like a list of all the non-negotiable beliefs faithful Catholics must have.

Or perhaps a statement saying that the catechism should be that curriculum.

I just think some sort of standardization would be beneficial so that everyone will know what is required and what everything means in its fullness, including the True Presence.

How they want to deliver that message is up to their teaching style, but just so the message gets through clearly and entirely. That’s what matters.
 
Unitas said:
I don’t know if this is going too far (imo, not at all) but perhaps the faithful should ask Rome to require a standard basic curriculum to be followed in every catechism class. And make that a requirement to maintain the priviledge of certification to teach the faith.

Like a list of all the non-negotiable beliefs faithful Catholics must have.

Or perhaps a statement saying that the catechism should be that curriculum.

I just think some sort of standardization would be beneficial so that everyone will know what is required and what everything means in its fullness, including the True Presence.

How they want to deliver that message is up to their teaching style, but just so the message gets through clearly and entirely. That’s what matters.
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They had that. It was called the Baltimore Catechism. It was perfect for the age groups that CCD and elementary school target.The Bishops banned it!
 
Catholic schools are not detrimental, but what children learn there must also be reinforced and lived in their homes and unfortunately in many cases it is not.

Just like baptism…it’s not a magic bullet to heaven. It’s the sacrament of initiation, we have to do the rest to keep our inheritance that is freely given to us.

Unfortunately, many people just do not get the connection. They assume if they enroll their children in school they are fulfilling their obligation to raise their child Catholic. But raising is not just enrolling…raising is practicing our faith in all ways…word, deed and thought! Children learn more from imitation in the home and what do they have to come home to…many times dysfunctional families. More reasons to pray
 
:twocents: So many good! reasons in answer to the original question. As a member of 3 Eucharistic adoration groups and as a founder of Eucharistic adoration in my previous parish, I agree with everyone and will add my own observations.

Lack of authentic teaching of the Faith and proper catechesis ; Lack of belief in the Real Presence even by many priests - our pastor is one, which is why he is almost hostile to our Adoration chapel - he says God is everywhere and just as present in the parish prison ministry as in the Eucharistic chapel; virtually no mention of this most blessed gift in any homilies or day-to-day interaction between priest and parisioners; lax and even irreverent treatment of Jesus present in the Blessed Sacrament even in the churches - i.e. no genuflecting, no silence, etc.

I could go on, but I’d probably be preaching to the choir. Poor Jesus…He will suffer until the end of the world, being ignored and abandoned by so many, the worst being so many of His own priests and bishops.

After all, how will the lay people learn all that is involved in this great gift of God if they are not taught?
 
mchium said:
:twocents: So many good! reasons in answer to the original question. As a member of 3 Eucharistic adoration groups and as a founder of Eucharistic adoration in my previous parish, I agree with everyone and will add my own observations.

Lack of authentic teaching of the Faith and proper catechesis ; Lack of belief in the Real Presence even by many priests - our pastor is one, which is why he is almost hostile to our Adoration chapel - he says God is everywhere and just as present in the parish prison ministry as in the Eucharistic chapel; virtually no mention of this most blessed gift in any homilies or day-to-day interaction between priest and parisioners; lax and even irreverent treatment of Jesus present in the Blessed Sacrament even in the churches - i.e. no genuflecting, no silence, etc.

I could go on, but I’d probably be preaching to the choir. Poor Jesus…He will suffer until the end of the world, being ignored and abandoned by so many, the worst being so many of His own priests and bishops.

After all, how will the lay people learn all that is involved in this great gift of God if they are not taught?
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This remindes me of that saying-- along the lines of:

The road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests—and the skulls of bishops are the lamp-posts.
 
mchium said:
:twocents: So many good! reasons in answer to the original question. As a member of 3 Eucharistic adoration groups and as a founder of Eucharistic adoration in my previous parish, I agree with everyone and will add my own observations.

Lack of authentic teaching of the Faith and proper catechesis ; Lack of belief in the Real Presence even by many priests - our pastor is one, which is why he is almost hostile to our Adoration chapel - he says God is everywhere and just as present in the parish prison ministry as in the Eucharistic chapel; virtually no mention of this most blessed gift in any homilies or day-to-day interaction between priest and parisioners; lax and even irreverent treatment of Jesus present in the Blessed Sacrament even in the churches - i.e. no genuflecting, no silence, etc.

I could go on, but I’d probably be preaching to the choir. Poor Jesus…He will suffer until the end of the world, being ignored and abandoned by so many, the worst being so many of His own priests and bishops.

After all, how will the lay people learn all that is involved in this great gift of God if they are not taught?
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Yes, it seems the the body of Christ at this time finds itself between the arresting of Jesus and His flogging, everythings being stripped away. After that comes the desolate walk up Calvary…you know the rest. But, according to the saints the latter glory of the Church will be far greater than the first, resurrection!! so pray pray pray!
 
paramedicgirl said:
From the Head Coverings thread, the topic of disbelief in the Real Presence came up, which is worthy of discussion as a separate thread. Father Hardon says in this quoted article that disbelief and misunderstanding is the outgrowth of misleading doctrines that have been circulating among certain theologians for a good part of the twentieth century.

What are some of these misleading doctrines? Who propagated them? I think most people here have no trouble believing in the Real Presence, but we probably don’t represent the average person in the pew, the 70% Father Hardon says don’t believe in the Real Presence.

(name removed by moderator)ut from a traditional perspective is welcomed. 🙂
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Read and re-read Pascendi Gregis (Pope St. Pius X), you’ll begin to see how it all links together, and what a bad state we are in these days.
Oh, and four words, “Lex orandi, lex credendi.”
 
even more good posts! It feeds my faith and increases my hope! the ‘world’ (and even misguided clergy) have nothing on the folks here! God does, indeed, raise up saints! Good for all of you!

I have recommended the following book on another thread, but it is worth mentioning here (maybe some of you are already familiar with it): **Saving Those Damn Catholics **by Judie Brown of the American Life League. It will inspire you even more to keep the faith.

The skulls of priests and bishopric lamposts is not flattering but I’m afraid is so, so true. This age is like no other - but all that means to me is it calls for fidelity to Christ like no other! The more He is forgotten, the more I will adore Him ! I can sense you all will too!

In response to the note about the term ‘transubstantiation’ vs Real Presence - there is no conflict there and certainly no replacement of ‘old’ terminology for ‘new’. The term Real Presence has been around forever (I’m a very very ‘pre’ Vatican II person and can testify to that). Also, I believe transubstantiation refers to the ‘action’ or ‘process’ that takes place at the consecration and confection of the species; Real Presence is a noun and refers to Jesus, Himself - present as He is in heaven = body, blood, soul and divinity.

Carry on, saints! 😉
 
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