The Reality of Hell

[Tom_Baum]

When I think of Hell, I think of it pretty much as the world we’re in now, except without beauty, love, or hope. So, like all the land mass covered wall to wall with concrete and city. It’s always dark. There’s dope, and liquor, meaningless empty lonely sex. Lot’s of fighting. Probably TV, Heavy metal music. Gangster Rap, etc. No talk, memory, or understanding of God at all. NO HOPE. No redemption. No prayer. No color. Just cars, pollution, darkness, noise, tenament apartments, slovenly appearance, no real friendship. Everything is emptiness. No meaning to anything at all. No art. No law. Just endless debauchery, but with no joy in it whatsoever. All this going on in permanent bodies which can’t die. It’s as far from God as one can be, per their wishes during their temporal lives. Perhaps memories to torment us over the choices we made to get there in the first place.

It would be kind of a mirror opposite of the new Heaven and New Earth where all is color, and love and joy and perfection, yet in bodies which experience the highest and most wonderful of sensations. All friendship being meaningful and full of love. All sins and bad mistakes forgotten in the mist. Lots of plants and trees and fresh air, and light and always the presence of God, everywhere. There may not be hope here either, because there is nothing to hope FOR. All is all, and has been fulfilled. But there is never despair.

I picture both heaven and hell to be kind of earth based. Items, images, and things we understand and can contextualize, but all things brought to the most real and perfected state. The perfected state of ugliness of this world for eternity for those in hell. The perfected state of beauty and joy for those in heaven. Never the twain shall meet. Nor even care, or possibly even know of each others existence. There would be no need to think about or wonder about hell in heaven. At least none that I can think of.

Seems to me that this scenario of heaven is that no one would be concerned about anyone but themself or did I read it wrong?

Seems to me that Jesus tried to teach us to care for others.

Are we to care for others in this life so that we can go to a place in the next life where we care for no one but ourself?

If, by some fluke, one in “heaven” would get a glimpse of one in “hell” would that mean that the one in heaven would not care one iota about what the one in hell is experiencing?

It seems as if your “conception” of heaven and hell, maybe not the details, are pretty much what many people’s conception of heaven and hell are, in that those in heaven care not about the “woes” of those in hell, doesn’t seem very loving for a supposedly place of Love to me, does it to you or anyone else who may happen to read this?

 

[babylonfalling]

When I think of Hell, I think of it pretty much as the world we’re in now, except without beauty, love, or hope. So, like all the land mass covered wall to wall with concrete and city. It’s always dark. There’s dope, and liquor, meaningless empty lonely sex. Lot’s of fighting. Probably TV, Heavy metal music. Gangster Rap, etc. No talk, memory, or understanding of God at all. NO HOPE. No redemption. No prayer. No color. Just cars, pollution, darkness, noise, tenament apartments, slovenly appearance, no real friendship. Everything is emptiness. No meaning to anything at all. No art. No law. Just endless debauchery, but with no joy in it whatsoever. All this going on in permanent bodies which can’t die. It’s as far from God as one can be, per their wishes during their temporal lives. Perhaps memories to torment us over the choices we made to get there in the first place.

It would be kind of a mirror opposite of the new Heaven and New Earth where all is color, and love and joy and perfection, yet in bodies which experience the highest and most wonderful of sensations. All friendship being meaningful and full of love. All sins and bad mistakes forgotten in the mist. Lots of plants and trees and fresh air, and light and always the presence of God, everywhere. There may not be hope here either, because there is nothing to hope FOR. All is all, and has been fulfilled. But there is never despair.

I picture both heaven and hell to be kind of earth based. Items, images, and things we understand and can contextualize, but all things brought to the most real and perfected state. The perfected state of ugliness of this world for eternity for those in hell. The perfected state of beauty and joy for those in heaven. Never the twain shall meet. Nor even care, or possibly even know of each others existence. There would be no need to think about or wonder about hell in heaven. At least none that I can think of.

Heaven may be earthly in that heaven may INCLUDE earth. I think right now, mankind is just kind of so tuned out of God that we’re not aware of how strong his presence all around us really is

 

[Telstar]

Is it your opinion that man’s evilness is greater than God’s Goodness?

Nothing is greater than the goodness of God.

I don’t and I believe that God is capable of “cleaning up” anything, so to speak, and since it is “God’s Will that ALL be saved” that God can somehow accomplish this even tho many think/believe, and in some cases sad to say seem to want, that God is incapable of doing this.

It is most certainly God’s Will that all should be saved. Unfortunately, not everyone does the Will of God. God gave us all free will to do whatever we please. He won’t force us to comply with His Will. Does it hurt God to see so many souls turn away from His love? You bet it does! But, He still won’t interfere if we choose to turn away from Him. That would make Him a tyrant, and not a benevolent God of Love. It has nothing to do with whether or not God is ‘capable’ of doing anything about it. It’s about our own unwillingness to cooperate with His Grace.

Just because we seem to have “tied God’s Hands”, so to speak, with our declarations of doctrine and other such things does not necessarily make it so.

We have not tied God’s hands, nor could we ever do that. He has tied His own hands by giving us the ability to choose for ourselves. He lovingly offers Himself to us, but we can always refuse to accept His gift of love. What would you do differently? Would you try to force God to save everyone, even though they don’t want to be saved?

Seems really sad to me that many seem to think that there is a limit to God’s “rewards” but that God’s punishments are unlimited.

There are no limits to God’s gifts. They’re freely given in abundance to all those that love Him. But, it is very sad that so many people refuse to accept the gifts that God offers with love.

So, what do you think God should do with those who outright hate Him? What about all of the murderers, and rapists, and every other kind of degenerate, and hateful human being? What about Lucifer and his gang? Should God build them a cozy little fantasy land, where they can kill, and maim, and destroy everything in site, over and over again, for all eternity? A ‘happy place’, without any kind of punishment for all of the evil things they’ve done in this life?

What about God’s Justice? What do you think they really deserve? The reality is that most of them feed on pure hate. They have no idea what love really is. That’s what mortal sin does to the human soul. It just breeds more and more hate in the human heart, until there’s no room left for any love. Their hate consumes them from the inside in Hell. That’s where the fire that burns them comes from.

You wrote, “Are you thinking that in the end God will somehow save every soul that’s ever existed, and no one will have to go to Hell?”

When I wrote, “Jesus did more than “go to the abode of the dead” concerning His work on the cross.”, I was trying to get across that Jesus went to hell not just the so-called “good place of the dead”.

I think I read an account from a certain visionary, where they saw Jesus go down into Hell, but He never took anyone out. Once a soul chooses to be damned, they’re damned for all eternity. There is no escape."Matthew 13:[49] So shall it be at the end of the world. The angels shall go out, and shall separate the wicked from among the just. [50] And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."Note the first line says, “at the end of the world”. This is what Jesus said about the Final Judgement.

When Jesus said, “the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against It”, Jesus was telling us the “mission” of His Church.

No, He was talking about the Church, itself. All the powers of Hell can never defeat His Church, because He has defeated Hell through His Passion and Resurrection.
(The DR version says, “And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”)

Have you ever heard the “O my Jesus” prayer?

O my Jesus
forgive US our sins
Save US from the fires of hell
Lead ALL souls to heaven
Help especially ALL those MOST in need of Thy MERCY.

Sounds to me to be quite a catholic prayer, does it also to you?

I say it every single day. I don’t know where you found that version, but this is the one I have been saying for many, many years (and I’m really old). It’s from Fatima.“O my Jesus, forgive us our sins;
save us from the fires of hell;
lead all souls to Heaven,
especially those in most need of Thy Mercy.
Amen.”
And, this one:
“My God, I believe, I adore, I trust and I love Thee!
And, I beg pardon for all those who do not believe, do not adore,
do not trust and do not love Thee.
Amen”
As much as I would love to think you’re correct, I have way too many doubts that it could ever be possible. I’ve seen way to many truly evil people. All we can do is hope and pray for God’s Mercy to save as many souls as possible, but the final decision on the ‘eternity’ of Hell, is all in His hands.

 

[babylonfalling]

I agree and sometimes it takes meeting God to know this rather than to just believe it, but there sure do seem to be quite a few who seem to know the “limits”, at least their ‘conception’ of the limits, of God.

These ‘limits’ are sometimes taught, thought up by other people and sometimes thought up by the person themself.

I, for one, think that there are going to be quite a few believers that are going to be more surprised by God than some of the non-believers when they eventually meet God.

Limits of God??
I can’t think of anyone who would say that God has limits?

 

[Aloysium]

Limits of God??
I can’t think of anyone who would say that God has limits?

God is limited to what is rational, good, beautiful. That is the argument that people get back to, that they cannot conceive of a loving God allowing the existence of hell. For me it is not a contradiction. I take it on faith that what is revealed is true - that both God and hell exist. I can’t say I understand fully, but hell would not be referred to as often as it is in scripture if it were not a reality.

 

[StevenFrancis]

Seems to me that this scenario of heaven is that no one would be concerned about anyone but themself or did I read it wrong?

Seems to me that Jesus tried to teach us to care for others.

Are we to care for others in this life so that we can go to a place in the next life where we care for no one but ourself?

If, by some fluke, one in “heaven” would get a glimpse of one in “hell” would that mean that the one in heaven would not care one iota about what the one in hell is experiencing?

It seems as if your “conception” of heaven and hell, maybe not the details, are pretty much what many people’s conception of heaven and hell are, in that those in heaven care not about the “woes” of those in hell, doesn’t seem very loving for a supposedly place of Love to me, does it to you or anyone else who may happen to read this?

No, we’re dealing with limitations of language in lack of vision here. The way that you’re talking about “caring” and “loving” are the way in which we care and love now. This is but a small glimpse of perfected love. It’s impossible to transmit between people. As far as caring for those in Hell, well, remember this is after the “the last day”. Everyone one is where they want to be. Those who love God, goodness and light, with God for eternity. Those who love the fallen world are in a perfectly fallen world. Both states are eternal. There is nothing that a person in Heaven can do for a person in hell. We’re past all that. Part of our eternal reward, would be that there is no more sadness, no despair, no heartbreak, no depression, etc… I’m not sure there would be much context for hell in the heavenly realms, nor vice versa. I don’t envision it so much as not “caring” that X amount of people chose their extreme distance from God, but rather that now, outside outside of time, we are likely relieved of even the idea of hell. That’s something to focus on here in temporal life, while we are still all making our choices and decisions about eternity. Once time is over, in the way in which we think of it, and we inherently “know” who is where, and why, we would be relieved of any anxiety or sadness over that. A dwelling on the damned, would be chasing after wind, and unnecessary to the state of being. Probably not even possible to the state of being. The lack of the eternal saints “caring” about the damned is not selfishness, or any other such human, earthly character flaw. They are lost. Forever. There is no prayer to bring them back. There is no intervention to be staged, and to top that off, the damned want the state of hell which they ended up with. They showed it each day in the way they conducted their lives. Those who are in heaven now, or course, while purgatory presumably exists, and certainly termporal earth life is still plodding along, the saints pray for us. The angels and saints intervene in our lives etc., and they “care” in an amplified and perfected version, I suppose of what you’re alluding to. But once all souls are are in their eternal state, there is no longer any reason for any of that. What I have realized, as I write this, is that looking back at my “glimpses” remark, that part was off base, and not consistent with the theological idea I’m expressing of heaven and hell, so on that point, never mind. You’re right. It doesn’t fit.

The main thing I want to express is that the forgetting of the damned by the saints is not an act of selfishness. It is simply keeping with the perfection of heaven, and (though it doesn’t appeal to most of us, (the perfection of hell). The love between God and the saints, between the saints and God, between the heavenly angels and God, between the angels and the saints, and between the saints with each other, etc. will be vibrant, perfect and pure. The love of the damned is pointless, as they are eternally without love. They can neither love, nor be loved, because they have achieved a perfected state of lovelessness. There is no love to either be had, or to give among the damned. So likewise, they will likely forget all about the saints, and heaven and God, and such. They’ll be mired in their own perfected ugly existence.

I don’t know. This is the kind of stuff, that in the end, it doesn’t really pay much to think about or dwell upon. I think the OP wondered what we each think about. These are my current thoughts about the states based on a few things I’ve read, and some thinking about it. But you pointed out one error, (“glimpses”), and one misunderstanding (conscious selfishness by the saints). I’ll go back through and see what you’re conception is/was. I’ve shared mine. It wasn’t received as intended by at least one reader . I don’t know if this follow up clarifies my vision or muddies it up. In any event, it is what it is, and I only have the skills I have in writing. And not, I don’t envision the saints as selfish or only “concerned with themselves”. They’re living in a different mode of existence where those things don’t even exist.

 

[babylonfalling]

God is limited to what is rational, good, beautiful. That is the argument that people get back to, that they cannot conceive of a loving God allowing the existence of hell. For me it is not a contradiction. I take it on faith that what is revealed is true - that both God and hell exist. I can’t say I understand fully, but hell would not be referred to as often as it is in scripture if it were not a reality.

Our concepts of rational good beautiful are what is limited.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Limits of God??
I can’t think of anyone who would say that God has limits?

Maybe you should read some of what people write on these posts.

They might not word it as limits but what some write sure speak of limits.

People speak of God’s infinite Mercy but what they actually write in relation to God’s Mercy is anything even close to approaching infinite Mercy, however many people’s “conception” of God’s Justice, which to many seems to have very little to do with Justice and much to do with petty, vindictive revenge, now this does seem to have an infinite and forever quality to it.

I often wonder why some, by what they write, seem to think that God’s Justice and God’s Mercy are polar opposites.

I consider Justice, some people’s version of justice anyway, without Mercy to be nothing more than revenge and to me revenge is not what God is speaking of when He said, “Vengeance is Mine says the Lord” just as I do not consider the jealousy of God when God said, “I AM a jealous God” to be of the petty, vindictive type that we humans are so prone too.

 

[Tom_Baum]

God is limited to what is rational, good, beautiful. That is the argument that people get back to, that they cannot conceive of a loving God allowing the existence of hell. For me it is not a contradiction. I take it on faith that what is revealed is true - that both God and hell exist. I can’t say I understand fully, but hell would not be referred to as often as it is in scripture if it were not a reality.

Hell is real, very real, I can tell you that for a fact but that doesn’t mean that everything that people believe about hell is real.

 

[whoisdiss]

The concept of hell is so frightening that many religions and cults have rejected the existence of hell. This includes Jehovah Witness’s, Seventh Day Adventist, Judaism to an extent, etc. Whether the fire in hell is literal or “spiritual” the Catholic Church has no official position, but it’s more likely the fire in hell is not literal.

Jesus describes the torment in hell as fire, and brimstone, and even worms crawling all over you body. Now, like you said, Jesus could have been using this to make us want to go to heaven since we are fleshly creatures and thinking about physical torment to that type of extent is pretty horrifying. But I like the other hypothesis in that, Jesus uses the imagery of fire, brimstone, and even worms to tell us that the spiritual torment in hell is just as bad as these things would be in the physical world, and maybe even worse.

The early church seemed to favor the position hell was more of a state then a physical place. Hell being a physical place is largely the imaginary of mid-evil thought. Same thing for Heaven and Purgatory. Even when Judaism first started developing the concept of an afterlife, a concept that was adopted right into Christianity, many Jews had thought the afterlife was physical. Saying that Sheol, the afterlife in Judaism, was under the earth. I think the concept of hell being in the earth (or under it) started when Judaism first started the development of the concept of the afterlife

The afterlife had always been believed in Judaism, there was no such thing as soul sleep, but it wasn’t until Greek Philosophy started coming into Judaism is when they started developing a more physical and developed theology into their afterlife. Though most Christians don’t except the Greek idea that the afterlife is a physical place, the New Testament takes advantage of the idea that the afterlife is physical to show us that the afterlife is spiritual torment and that it is just as bad as the type of physical torment described in hell.

Hell being a physical place does not even make sense because we are spirit in the afterlife not physical, it would be impossible to be physically tormented.

Over all, the torture in hell is total separation from God forever, and the New Testament uses the imagery of fire, brimstone, and worms to show us that it’s just as bad as that and possibly even worse. Hell is probably not a physical place, it’s a spiritual one.

---

God bless.

 

[babylonfalling]

The concept of hell is so frightening that many religions and cults have rejected the existence of hell. This includes Jehovah Witness’s, Seventh Day Adventist, Judaism to an extent, etc. Whether the fire in hell is literal or “spiritual” the Catholic Church has no official position, but it’s more likely the fire in hell is not literal.

Jesus describes the torment in hell as fire, and brimstone, and even worms crawling all over you body. Now, like you said, Jesus could have been using this to make us want to go to heaven since we are fleshly creatures and thinking about physical torment to that type of extent is pretty horrifying. But I like the other hypothesis in that, Jesus uses the imagery of fire, brimstone, and even worms to tell us that the spiritual torment in hell is just as bad as these things would be in the physical world, and maybe even worse.

The early church seemed to favor the position hell was more of a state then a physical place. Hell being a physical place is largely the imaginary of mid-evil thought. Same thing for Heaven and Purgatory. Even when Judaism first started developing the concept of an afterlife, a concept that was adopted right into Christianity, many Jews had thought the afterlife was physical. Saying that Sheol, the afterlife in Judaism, was under the earth. I think the concept of hell being in the earth (or under it) started when Judaism first started the development of the concept of the afterlife

The afterlife had always been believed in Judaism, there was no such thing as soul sleep, but it wasn’t until Greek Philosophy started coming into Judaism is when they started developing a more physical and developed theology into their afterlife. Though most Christians don’t except the Greek idea that the afterlife is a physical place, the New Testament takes advantage of the idea that the afterlife is physical to show us that the afterlife is spiritual torment and that it is just as bad as the type of physical torment described in hell.

Hell being a physical place does not even make sense because we are spirit in the afterlife not physical, it would be impossible to be physically tormented.

Over all, the torture in hell is total separation from God forever, and the New Testament uses the imagery of fire, brimstone, and worms to show us that it’s just as bad as that and possibly even worse. Hell is probably not a physical place, it’s a spiritual one.

---

God bless.

I suspect that hell is a spiritual existence in the afterlife, an existence in which it is too late to ever be in sync with God again. We exist outside our bodies, in a universe where God’s presence is everywhere, and we are doomed to exist that way forever, existing out of sync with God, with no more chance to ever get in sync with him again. This is hell and this is why it’s so important to get in sync with God now, before we pass over.

 

[Telstar]

The concept of hell is so frightening that many religions and cults have rejected the existence of hell. This includes Jehovah Witness’s, Seventh Day Adventist, Judaism to an extent, etc. Whether the fire in hell is literal or “spiritual” the Catholic Church has no official position, but it’s more likely the fire in hell is not literal.

Jesus describes the torment in hell as fire, and brimstone, and even worms crawling all over you body. Now, like you said, Jesus could have been using this to make us want to go to heaven since we are fleshly creatures and thinking about physical torment to that type of extent is pretty horrifying. But I like the other hypothesis in that, Jesus uses the imagery of fire, brimstone, and even worms to tell us that the spiritual torment in hell is just as bad as these things would be in the physical world, and maybe even worse.

The early church seemed to favor the position hell was more of a state then a physical place. Hell being a physical place is largely the imaginary of mid-evil thought. Same thing for Heaven and Purgatory. Even when Judaism first started developing the concept of an afterlife, a concept that was adopted right into Christianity, many Jews had thought the afterlife was physical. Saying that Sheol, the afterlife in Judaism, was under the earth. I think the concept of hell being in the earth (or under it) started when Judaism first started the development of the concept of the afterlife

The afterlife had always been believed in Judaism, there was no such thing as soul sleep, but it wasn’t until Greek Philosophy started coming into Judaism is when they started developing a more physical and developed theology into their afterlife. Though most Christians don’t except the Greek idea that the afterlife is a physical place, the New Testament takes advantage of the idea that the afterlife is physical to show us that the afterlife is spiritual torment and that it is just as bad as the type of physical torment described in hell.

Hell being a physical place does not even make sense because we are spirit in the afterlife not physical, it would be impossible to be physically tormented.

Over all, the torture in hell is total separation from God forever, and the New Testament uses the imagery of fire, brimstone, and worms to show us that it’s just as bad as that and possibly even worse. Hell is probably not a physical place, it’s a spiritual one.

---

God bless.

I have to disagree with this, at least in part. At this point in time, Hell is not a “physical existence”. But, in the Final Judgement, all of the dead will be resurrected, both good and bad.“Apocalypse 20: [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.”

“Acts Of Apostles 24: [14] But this I confess to thee, that according to the way, which they call a heresy, so do I serve the Father and my God, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets: [15] Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.”

“1 Thessalonians 4: [15] For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.”

“John 5: [26] For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: [27] And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. [28] Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. [29] And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.”
All of these passages are clear, that all souls will be resurrected and rejoined to their physical bodies. That’s when “the veil” between the spiritual realm and the physical realm, that was placed between them after the fall, will be removed. The only separation after that point will be between Heaven and Hell.

 

[babylonfalling]

I have to disagree with this, at least in part. At this point in time, Hell is not a “physical existence”. But, in the Final Judgement, all of the dead will be resurrected, both good and bad.“Apocalypse 20: [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.”

“Acts Of Apostles 24: [14] But this I confess to thee, that according to the way, which they call a heresy, so do I serve the Father and my God, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets: [15] Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.”

“1 Thessalonians 4: [15] For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.”

“John 5: [26] For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: [27] And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. [28] Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. [29] And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.”
All of these passages are clear, that all souls will be resurrected and rejoined to their physical bodies. That’s when “the veil” between the spiritual realm and the physical realm, that was placed between them after the fall, will be removed. The only separation after that point will be between Heaven and Hell.

Is there really a veil or is that just faulty human perception because of the fall

 

[Telstar]

Is there really a veil or is that just faulty human perception because of the fall

I think you’re right (not positive). It’s more like a kind of spiritual ‘blindness’ that keeps us from seeing what is always there. The spiritual realm is not so much something that’s very far away (or so I’ve heard), but it’s actually all around us. There are some people that might catch glimpses of it once in a while (angels, ghosts, demons, UFOs?, etc.), but for the most part, no one even realizes it’s right there in front of us.

It’s always been referred to as “the veil”, probably because of the veil that hung in front of the Tabernacle of the Holy of Holies, that separated the ancient Jews from the vision of God in the Temple. That’s why only the High Priest could enter it once a year. (I think there were other Priests that were allowed to go in to clean, etc., but they had to be in a very pure spiritual state and could not look at it, or they would die.) Anyone else would immediately be struck dead on the spot, at the sight of Him.

 

[thinkandmull]

No, Hell was created to be satan and the demons place of punishment and torment, how could they be inflicting any torment when they themselves are being punished here? BTW, right now, satan and the demons arent even in hell yet, so who could be doing the torment now?

The bible tells us that we are only given a small piece of the larger picture (in terms of knowledge), so i tend to think hell is part of this, we just dont understand all the details about it yet. Although I would think anything we speculate on about it, is probably way wrong.

They say that fire is spiritually inside the demons. Perhaps they and the damned torture themselves with fire from guilt. No way to know I guess. THe CCC has beeen quoted on whoi inflicts punishment. Its great, but how are we to understand the Bible when it says God “cast” them into hell??

 

[babylonfalling]

I think you’re right (not positive). It’s more like a kind of spiritual ‘blindness’ that keeps us from seeing what is always there. The spiritual realm is not so much something that’s very far away (or so I’ve heard), but it’s actually all around us. There are some people that might catch glimpses of it once in a while (angels, ghosts, demons, UFOs?, etc.), but for the most part, no one even realizes it’s right there in front of us.

It’s always been referred to as “the veil”, probably because of the veil that hung in front of the Tabernacle of the Holy of Holies, that separated the ancient Jews from the vision of God in the Temple. That’s why only the High Priest could enter it once a year. (I think there were other Priests that were allowed to go in to clean, etc., but they had to be in a very pure spiritual state and could not look at it, or they would die.) Anyone else would immediately be struck dead on the spot, at the sight of Him.

I have a link to an article up somewhere about our spiritual blindness. It’s an interesting thing because it makes you wonder how much we really are missing out on

 

[whoisdiss]

I have to disagree with this, at least in part. At this point in time, Hell is not a “physical existence”. But, in the Final Judgement, all of the dead will be resurrected, both good and bad.“Apocalypse 20: [13] And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up their dead that were in them; and they were judged every one according to their works. [14] And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the pool of fire.”

“Acts Of Apostles 24: [14] But this I confess to thee, that according to the way, which they call a heresy, so do I serve the Father and my God, believing all things which are written in the law and the prophets: [15] Having hope in God, which these also themselves look for, that there shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.”

“1 Thessalonians 4: [15] For the Lord himself shall come down from heaven with commandment, and with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God: and the dead who are in Christ, shall rise first.”

“John 5: [26] For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself: [27] And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man. [28] Wonder not at this; for the hour cometh, wherein all that are in the graves shall hear the voice of the Son of God. [29] And they that have done good things, shall come forth unto the resurrection of life; but they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.”
All of these passages are clear, that all souls will be resurrected and rejoined to their physical bodies. That’s when “the veil” between the spiritual realm and the physical realm, that was placed between them after the fall, will be removed. The only separation after that point will be between Heaven and Hell.

Yes, you have a good point because we will be physically raised. But I still think hell for the resurrected damned will still be a state of existence more then a physical place. The problem is I can’t explain how this can be because it’s spiritual, we can’t really explain the spiritual realm. The torture in hell is total separation from God, the New Testament uses imagery to show that eternal separation from God is just as bad as fire, brimstone, and worms crawling on you. Hell is not a place in my opinion.

 

[Telstar]

I have a link to an article up somewhere about our spiritual blindness. It’s an interesting thing because it makes you wonder how much we really are missing out on

Spiritual blindness is definitely a direct result of the fall (sin). The more we continue to fall into sin, the worse that blindness becomes and the less we can see of the outer, as well as the inner workings of the spiritual world. That blindness comes from the dark side of spirituality (the demonic side; the devil), so that’s what ultimately keeps us from ‘seeing the light’ (the good side; God). In the end, it’s the biggest thing that keeps us separate from God.

Too many people, these days, don’t want to believe that evil can influence them in any way, but it most certainly does. They avoid talking, or even thinking about it, unless it’s to point it out in what they perceive to be the flaws of other people. They refuse to see it in themselves. We all do that to some degree, so none of us are exempt from guilt in that regard. A lot of people don’t even like to admit that evil, or the devil, really exists. That’s why the world is in such a horrible state. We’re all subject to a certain amount of spiritual blindness, but some of us even choose to put those blinders on, ourselves.

 

[Telstar]

Yes, you have a good point because we will be physically raised. But I still think hell for the resurrected damned will still be a state of existence more then a physical place. The problem is I can’t explain how this can be because it’s spiritual, we can’t really explain the spiritual realm. The torture in hell is total separation from God, the New Testament uses imagery to show that eternal separation from God is just as bad as fire, brimstone, and worms crawling on you. Hell is not a place in my opinion.

But, isn’t the so-called ‘real’ world also a ‘state of existence’ for us? It’s a place where we exist in the ‘here and now’ of time and space. This place is effected by the flow of time, but after the Final Judgement it will exist in eternity. That’s when there will be a “New Heaven” and a “New Earth”. I have to believe that Hell will also have a material component to it, then, because physical bodies can’t exist in a totally spiritual realm.

I don’t even think Heaven is a completely ‘spiritual’ place, now. Otherwise, how could Jesus, or Mary and the other Saints that have been physically “taken up”, exist there if it was? It’s very hard for any of us to understand how all of this will work out, in the end. They’re all great mysteries that only God can fully understand. We’re incapable of grasping those mysteries with our limited intellect. We will never be able to fully understand the mind of God, so it’s probably best not to even try to speculate. It will just make us even more confused than we already are.

 

[babylonfalling]

Spiritual blindness is definitely a direct result of the fall (sin). The more we continue to fall into sin, the worse that blindness becomes and the less we can see of the outer, as well as the inner workings of the spiritual world. That blindness comes from the dark side of spirituality (the demonic side; the devil), so that’s what ultimately keeps us from ‘seeing the light’ (the good side; God). In the end, it’s the biggest thing that keeps us separate from God.

Too many people, these days, don’t want to believe that evil can influence them in any way, but it most certainly does. They avoid talking, or even thinking about it, unless it’s to point it out in what they perceive to be the flaws of other people. They refuse to see it in themselves. We all do that to some degree, so none of us are exempt from guilt in that regard. A lot of people don’t even like to admit that evil, or the devil, really exists. That’s why the world is in such a horrible state. We’re all subject to a certain amount of spiritual blindness, but some of us even choose to put those blinders on, ourselves.

I also think we’re blind to how good things are for us…not horrible. Seriously, I think Satan likes it when we talk about about how horrible the state of the world is. I believe the world is improving in a lot of ways as the Kingdom encroaches in on us. Satan does not want us to see that. Pessimism is his weapon.