The Reality of Sex and the Lie of “Gender Self-Identity”

[o_mlly]

As you point out, the issue in question is not so much about gender but rather about “gender identity,” i.e. the personal and internal sense that someone has of being masculine or feminine. It is separate from biological sex and is a real thing probably generated by the brain. It’s not about the “reality” of a person’s body but about how they perceive themselves. And when that self perception in the brain conflicts with the external physical reality, gender dysphoria is the result.

We are all compassionate toward all people who suffer with this condition. The issue is how best to relieve their suffering.

If one’s perception is disordered then is not the correct therapy to counselling to correct the mis-perception and not attempt to surgically alter the reality? I think we do these poor souls no service of love by affirming their mis-perception as controlling in determining the corrective action.

Extending the principles underlying the logic of surgically correcting a person’s gender-identity disorder would also justify surgically altering the person who suffers from “specie-identity” (clinical lycanthropy) from man to a beast.

 

[JMMJ]

If one’s perception is disordered then is not the correct therapy to counselling to correct the mis-perception and not attempt to surgically alter the reality

Great. But it doesn’t work.

 

[o_mlly]

Great. But it doesn’t work.

I believe the efficacy of SRS, the irreversible surgical procedure, is also lacking.

If efficacy is unproven and the particular SRS procedure induces sterility then is not that procedure intrinsically evil?

If efficacy is unproven and the surgery is cosmetic and reversible, that is, does not induce permanent sterility then I suppose one may make a moral case that may justify the validity of that surgery.

 

[PaulinVA]

I believe the efficacy of SRS, the irreversible surgical procedure, is also lacking.

If efficacy is unproven and the particular SRS procedure induces sterility then is not that procedure intrinsically evil?

I think the modern term is “Gender confirmation surgery”. Even the name plays into the mental illness. I think mutilating bodies is wrong, as I said earlier.

But, the bottom line is that you cannot change a man into a woman.

If efficacy is unproven and the surgery is cosmetic and reversible, that is, does not induce permanent sterility then I suppose one may make a moral case that may justify the validity of that surgery.

You are correct in that the reversiblity might change the morality, but I don’t know if transgender individuals would accept the “temporary”.

 

[Thorolfr]

JMMJ:

Great. But it doesn’t work.

I believe the efficacy of SRS, the irreversible surgical procedure, is also lacking.

You might believe that, but have offered no evidence to support that conclusion.

According to a study published last year, “Quality of Life Following Male-To-Female Sex Reassignment Surgery”:

The 13 articles (11 quantitative and 2 mixed quantitative/qualitative studies) that were found to be suitable for inclusion in this review contained information on 1101 study participants. The number of trans women in each study ranged from 3 to 247. Their mean age was 39.9 years (range: 18–76). Seven different questionnaires were used to assess postoperative quality of life. The findings of the studies permit the conclusion that sex reassignment surgery beneficially affects emotional well-being, sexuality, and quality of life in general. In other categories (e.g., “freedom from pain”, “fitness”, and “energy”), some of the studies revealed worsening after the operation. All of the studies were judged to be at moderate to high risk of bias. The drop-out rates, insofar as they were given, ranged from 12% to 77% (median: 56%).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6546862/

There is definitely some uncertainty about the efficacy of sex reassignment surgery in some cases and about its long term efficacy and more investigation is warranted, but there is also evidence that it does improve the lives of many transgender people. I personally know some transgender people who have benefitted from it.

 

[o_mlly]

There is definitely some uncertainty about the efficacy of sex reassignment surgery in some cases …

One cannot prove a negative but in the absence of peer reviewed studies showing statistically valid evidence of efficacy, I submit that there is not only no certainty but no probability of efficacy for SRS. Poorly designed or executed studies do not move the probability from 0 to positive number.

To wit:
https://www.cms.gov/medicare-coverage-database/details/nca-proposed-decision-memo.aspx?NCAId=282

Based on a thorough review of the clinical evidence available at this time, there is not enough evidence to determine whether gender reassignment surgery improves health outcomes for Medicare beneficiaries with gender dysphoria. There were conflicting (inconsistent) study results – of the best designed studies, some reported benefits while others reported harms. The quality and strength of evidence were low due to the mostly observational study designs with no comparison groups, potential confounding and small sample sizes.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

There is definitely some uncertainty about the efficacy of sex reassignment surgery in some cases …

One cannot prove a negative but in the absence of peer reviewed studies showing statistically valid evidence of efficacy, I submit that there is not only no certainty but no probability of efficacy for SRS. Poorly designed or executed studies do not move the probability from 0 to positive number.

To wit:
Proposed Decision Memo for Gender Dysphoria and Gender Reassignment Surgery (CAG-00446N)

Based on a thorough review of the clinical evidence available at this time, there is not enough evidence to determine whether gender reassignment surgery improves health outcomes for Medicare beneficiaries with gender dysphoria. There were conflicting (inconsistent) study results – of the best designed studies, some reported benefits while others reported harms. The quality and strength of evidence were low due to the mostly observational study designs with no comparison groups, potential confounding and small sample sizes.

It’s not as if there is something unusual about the medical treatment of transgender people in that there is considerable uncertainty about the best treatments to use or about the efficacy of some of those treatments. Just to give another example, here is what a study found about using stimulants to treat children with ADHD:

We examine the effects of a policy change in the province of Quebec, Canada which greatly expanded insurance coverage for prescription medications. We show that the change was associated with a sharp increase in the use of stimulant medications commonly prescribed for ADHD in Quebec relative to the rest of Canada. We ask whether this increase in medication use was associated with improvements in emotional functioning or academic outcomes among children with ADHD. We find little evidence of improvement in either the medium or the long run. Our results are silent on the effects on optimal use of medication for ADHD, but suggest that expanding medication in a community setting had little positive benefit and may have had harmful effects given the average way these drugs are used in the community.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4815037/

Despite the conclusions of this study and others like it, millions of children and adults (myself included) take stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall to treat their ADHD. Many of those people nevertheless seem to benefit from taking those kinds of medications. Should they all stop doing so because there is some uncertainty about their overall efficacy? And this is just one medical condition. There is also uncertainty, for example, about how much antidepressants help some people with depression. Should everyone wait until there is absolute certainly about the long term efficacy for every individual of a medical treatment before that treatment is used?

 

[o_mlly]

Should they all stop doing so because there is some uncertainty about their overall efficacy? And this is just one medical condition. There is also uncertainty, for example, about how much antidepressants help some people with depression. Should everyone wait until there is absolute certainly about the long term efficacy for every individual of a medical treatment before that treatment is used?

Let’s dismiss the absence of certainty as instructive. Science never knows anything with certainty.

If the data shows a probability of efficacy and the treatment proposed may be suspended or reversed without permanent effect then the treatment may be beneficial and abandoned if not. Not so with drugs or surgeries that have permanent effects like SRS.

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr:

Should they all stop doing so because there is some uncertainty about their overall efficacy? And this is just one medical condition. There is also uncertainty, for example, about how much antidepressants help some people with depression. Should everyone wait until there is absolute certainly about the long term efficacy for every individual of a medical treatment before that treatment is used?

Let’s dismiss the absence of certainty as instructive. Science never knows anything with certainty.

If the data shows a probability of efficacy and the treatment proposed may be suspended or reversed without permanent effect then the treatment may be beneficial and abandoned if not. Not so with drugs or surgeries that have permanent effects like SRS.

But as can be seen from the ADHD study I posted above, there is obviously conflicting data on how likely stimulants are to benefit a child with ADHD (and conflicting data about a treatment is not unusual). And we just don’t know whether taking stimulants has any long-term permanent effects on the people who take them that can’t be reversed once the medication is stopped (this is also true for treatments of many other conditions). Taking them certainly does change the brain in unknown ways. They also can contribute to high blood pressure and they cause the heart rate to increase by about 10 beats per minute. If someone has their heart rate increased for ten years on a stimulant, what are the long term health consequences? We don’t know. For a great many medical treatments, we don’t know what their long term effects are.

 

[o_mlly]

But as can be seen from the ADHD study I posted above, there is obviously conflicting data on how likely stimulants are to benefit a child with ADHD …

Yes, the experts disagree on the use of drugs to treat an ADHD diagnosis. Such disagreements should give additional pause to those parents considering their use. The same situation applies to SRS. The difference is that with SRS the experts agree that the procedure is irreversible and the long-term effects unknown.

 

[tstadheim]

Most of Europe just has “bathrooms” long before the TG issue became a concern.

We should follow suit.

People keep saying this but I’ve been all over Europe and never once seen multi-use, unisex bathrooms or locker rooms. At most there might be a shared hand washing station outside segregated restrooms

 

[qui_est_ce]

You(plural, anyone reading this not just @Aquinas11)

What if our preferred pronoun is “it?”

 

[1cthlctrth]

We are on the verge of losing girls’ and women’s sports. The “Equality Act” would FORCE the acceptance of biological males participating in female sports.
Of course there are many exceptions: Agnieszka Radwanska would obliterate me in straight sets in tennis, and Lolo Jones would destroy me in a foot race.
However, we should compare all the World Records in running and jumping, and the number of women in the NFL (zero), NBA, and Major League Baseball. While the average woman is more intelligent than the average man in many fields of study, the AVERAGE man is stronger and faster than the average woman.
Competing in sports teaches life lessons such as reward for hard work, recognition for achievement, selflessness, and teamwork.
It is unfair to disrupt girls’ sports by FORCING them to compete against boys.

 

[Anrakyr]

Then you let me know and I can accommodate.

There is a massive misconception that you HAVE to gender people correctly like some on the fly carnival mind reader. The reality is it’s that person’s responsibility to tell you if you don’t know.
The only time it gets explosive is if someone is trying to pass, fails and those around them are mockingly dismissive.

 

[Sarcelle]

USA never had the add of being a prude. Maybe in certain hippie European societies? USA has always been viewed as highly liberal, emancipated and controversial in Europe. In the East it was always called “The Other USSR”.

Interesting.

From my online interactions with Western Europeans, all Americans are regarded as puritanical, prudish, violent, uneducated, stupid and not to mention, also fat.

 

[Bruised_Reed]

That isn’t an accurate understanding of gender dysphoria.

 

[o_mlly]

From my online interactions with Western Europeans, all Americans are regarded as puritanical, prudish, violent, uneducated, stupid and not to mention, also fat.

 

[SugarMagnolia]

But these people do not claim to be damaged. They claim to be born inside the wrong body. When people are born damaged, whether physically or mentally, we look for ways to repair the damage. Heart defects may be repaired with surgery. Mental disorders may be repaired with psychopharmacology. But we can’t repair souls that were inserted into the wrong bodies and we can’t even research how to do this because the soul is, by definition, not physical.

Mary888 is right. These people are claiming God made a mistake and mixed up some bodies and souls.

Transgenderism is a religion. Any philosophy that includes a belief in souls is a religion. And transgenderists aren’t even consistent in their religious beliefs because if they truly believed God put souls into the wrong bodies, they would go on a search for their real bodies. Somewhere in the world their real bodies are walking around with some other soul stuck inside of it. And if the transgender person has had surgery, then they are having surgery on a body that they admit isn’t even their own! When they finally locate their real body and the soul stuck inside of it is eager to freaky-friday into it, they will find that their body has been surgically altered by the soul that was incorrectly inside of it. How is it acceptable to authorize mutilating cosmetic surgery on a body that you admit isn’yt your own?

 

[Rau]

But we can’t repair souls that were inserted into the wrong bodies and we can’t even research how to do this because the soul is, by definition, not physical.

How did souls come into this? This seems to be your expression. The sufferer might describe their mind or brain being in the wrong body - meaning their brain has developed as one gender while their body the other. Now, we don’t even know if that is really a meaningful or accurate explanation, let alone references to the soul. Perhaps it is your view that ones sense of ones one sex is purely an attribute of the soul?

Mary888 is right. These people are claiming God made a mistake and mixed up some bodies and souls.

Why is a birth defect not such a mistake?

How is it acceptable to authorize mutilating cosmetic surgery on a body that you admit isn’yt your own?

The claim - the experience - is that brain and body are mismatched, not that the body is in fact someone else’s. I’m now wondering whether you are serious…

 

[JMMJ]

I don’t think you understand transgenderism too well. Maybe read up on it and meet some folks who identify as transgender.