The Reality of Sex and the Lie of “Gender Self-Identity”

[Anrakyr]

You define it for yourself.

 

[Rau]

You insist on using the term - you should define it. Or use sex since we all agree on the meaning of that.

 

[Anrakyr]

Since gender is on the spectrum and everyone is different. I cant define who you see yourself as and what you like if you don’t know yourself.

That said I have my own definition for myself I used to describe too other people when it becomes relevant.

 

[Annie]

That’s not the point. At all.

So what is the point?

I’d agree but society isn’t there yet. Hence why it’s a separate. It’s a societal issue.

Sports is separate because society isn’t where? What problen does society have?

 

[Rau]

That said I have my own definition for myself

I asked for a definition of the word. Are u unable to provide one?

 

[o_mlly]

You are the one that said those traits listed above are feminine. To me those combine traits translate to one word. Sweet

How sweet of you to say that.

Even so, this woman takes an active part in caring for her family.

She is not a fragile passive thing.

To be resourceful and active are common traits for men and women. To be robust as opposed to fragile is also a common trait. Are you arguing that because men and women 2 or more standard deviations from the mean do not demonstrate the traits I listed that the norms become irrelevant?

Is there reason to think that these traits are gender exclusive?

No. See my reply above.

But both comments to my post do not address the more imporant point I offered:

… perhaps more importantly, the labeling of males being males as a disordered behavior … repress[es] the biological instincts of men to be men and women to be women … especially in cases of gender confusion.

 

[Anrakyr]

So what is the point?

You are acting like I’m trying to set you up for this “gotcha” moment so you are trying to lead me I circles till you either find a hole or i give up.
Just because you find my beliefs absurd doesn’t mean I haven’t spent any time thinking on them. I’ve researched, thought, prayed and read.

So if you must think it’s absurd list give me the dignity of a human being and listen.

I’m going to try again, if you start leading me around again you’ll stop getting responses. Mostly because if you don’t honestly want to know and or not willing to be convinced why discuss?

What are the missing variables?

People identify their gender based on a number of reasons. You might class it as gender dysphoria but the reality of the situation is it’s not just male or female identities. People transition or claim a certain gender identity for various reasons for social, mental, for physical. Some even spiritual.

Women should not have to compete against people who have grown up biologically male.

see this is a separate issue and its own way because it’s vastly more complicated but not related to people’s right to choose their gender. I’m going to entertain it briefly just so that way you can understand where I’m coming from and hopefully move past it.

Let’s say for fun that none of us disagreed on gender identification. We let people present themselves how they want to be presented and there was no argument. Your point boils it down two males acting as females in sports. Aside from the fact that while there are fundamental physical differences most men and women are not so different and that they can’t compete together.

However, we do have things like weight class in order to prevent people from bowled over by someone who’s 500 lbs in a boxing ring.

Going back to the example that people should be in their own weight and physical class in a world where everyone agrees that people should present their own gender identity;
I would agree that people should stick with their original biological sex.

the problem is not doing so comes across as not respecting that person’s gender identity. Which as you can imagine in a world where it’s becoming more important to respect it makes it a hot-button issue.

But I digress, the conversation here is about what is not how we applied it to society. well the two subjects are connected we’re still busy going round and round about gender identification on default. If you want to talk about sports or other related topics that comes after.

First, i am not cisgender.

just for the sake of keeping this discussion going I’m going to do the one thing you shouldn’t do about somebody’s gender and assume it.

There is a lot of terminology in the sphere I am withholding myself from you using because you wouldn’t understand most of them. But there is a name and a purpose for every single one. When someone says gender is a spectrum there is a literal name for every type.

 

[Inquiry]

Since gender is on the spectrum and everyone is different.

That’s an appeal to a definition you have not stated.

 

[Anrakyr]

That’s an appeal to a definition you have not stated.

What do you hope to accomplish by asking this question? I understand that in normal debates you need your opponent to define their platform so you can interact with it. I’m not trying to play games with you but as this is a catholic forum most of these concepts mean absolutely nothing to most of you.

Calling @Annie cisgender is a perfect example of this. She argued even if I broke it down for her that cisgender is just someone who wishes to be identified by their birth sex. She has no regard for the spectrum and I can understand why. To her, it doesn’t exist.

So why would I define something like that? Its easier to say “it’s defined by the individual.”
The same as if you legally changed your name.

I’m trying to avoid this for a number of reasons. some of which are this isn’t a formal debate since you could just forget to login and just never reply again. Anything I put forward has no guarantee to be discussed or appreciated. The other is I’m not going to bog you down with the whole spectrum and everything in with all its terms because we wouldn’t never get through them all.

So my goal here is to get you gender is defined by the individual, sex is your physical attribute at birth.

Feel free to google the spectrum on your own time.

 

[Inquiry]

You are trying to get us to accept and act on a definition (in this case that gender is an individual choice) that is hazy and certainly not self evident. Nor am I even convinced that the definition, if adopted, would actually be helpful or supportive for the individuals in question. This is a point of contention and one we can’t just breeze by.

 

[Anrakyr]

You are trying to get us to accept and act on a definition (in this case that gender is an individual choice) that is hazy and certainly not self evident. Nor am I even convinced that the definition, if adopted, would actually be helpful or supportive for the individuals in question. This is a point of contention and one we can’t just breeze by.

You let people pick their own religion without much to do. I think the real problem is most people can’t separate gender from sex.

Granted it likely doesn’t help that many people in the Capitol T transgender your stereotyped male to female female to male muddies the water by demanding to be sexed according to appearance. Its a touchy issue because we use sex in security (for some reason) and having to be dragged out of line over an M or F aside from being humiliating can lead to other unwarranted consequences.

If I could I would abolish sex on ID. Anyone seeking to infiltrate isn’t going to be daft enough to miss-gender themselves. They’ll want to stay under the radar anyway.
This way we can leave gender like religion up to the person.

 

[Aquinas11]

We let people present themselves how they want to be presented and there was no argument.

No, you already stated you reject people’s ability to present themselves with the age that they feel.

Your point boils it down two males acting as females in sports.

Careful , you just misgendered those athletes.

I would agree that people should stick with their original biological sex.

Well I’m glad you now concede the major point.

When someone says gender is a spectrum there is a literal name for every type.

how many types are in this spectrum? nobody knows, which means there is no spectrum.

There is a lot of terminology in the sphere I am withholding myself from you using because you wouldn’t understand most of them

Condescending and demeaning language just makes arguments look very weak.

I think the real problem is most people can’t separate gender from sex.

As most people who can’t separate age from time.

She has no regard for the spectrum and I can understand why. To her, it doesn’t exist.

To you it doesn’t exist, because you can’t list for us the genders that make it up.

 

[Rau]

The other is I’m not going to bog you down with the whole spectrum and everything in with all its terms because we wouldn’t never get through them all.

Could you define “gender “ in one sentence. No need to enumerate the variants of gender. Just define the concept.

 

[Anrakyr]

No, you already stated you reject people’s ability to present themselves with the age that they feel .

No, I rejected that its compatible since age is determined by a measurement by society.
We use the Julian solar calendar. Since you equate sex with gender and see it as static of course comparing it to age makes sense. Gender however is about identity. We’ve told people before they can grow up to be whomever they want. If you want to maintain the point that gender is sex full stop then we have nothing further to discuss.
Now I’ll allow you to walk that back and stop beating that horse.

Careful , you just misgendered those athletes.
Well I’m glad you now concede the major point.

how many types are in this spectrum? nobody knows, which means there is no spectrum.

So theres only six colours?

Condescending and demeaning language just makes arguments look very weak.

If you don’t see gender separate from sex me throwing what are new terms for you is only going to serve to muddy the water. How about we deal with that point first.
I’m not being condescending, I’m pacing this out one point at a time. We could be talking about the specific points of the spectrum by now if you didn’t need stum that age allegory over and over and over again.

As most people who can’t separate age from time.

That string broke yet? Please let me know when it does so we can move past it.

To you it doesn’t exist because you can’t list for us the genders that make it up.

Let’s just get past the gender isn’t your sex thing and I’ll be happy too.
However, I’ll thank you to remember I did JUST name one above that @Annie disregarded as mentioned.

Could you define “gender “ in one sentence. No need to enumerate the variants of gender. Just define the concept.

Gender is a combination of your body, your personal identity and how you present that identity.

 

[Mary888]

North America is pretty unique in the idea of separate gender facilities.

What??? When I was in Rome I had to choose between two hostels. One said since I was from Eastern Europe they wondered if I wanted an all girl bedroom since this requested only by Eastern Europeans while Western Europeans, Americans and Australians are fine with a mixed bedroom.
USA never had the add of being a prude. Maybe in certain hippie European societies? USA has always been viewed as highly liberal, emancipated and controversial in Europe. In the East it was always called “The Other USSR”.

 

[KMC]

I define my gender as “moonbeam.” That is how a I feel. The thing about us “moonbeams” is that it offends us to ask us about it. Now, I want to compete against women in wrestling events. Us moonbeams like to wrestle, but only if we have a good chance at winning. That’s part of how we identify ourselves.

 

[Aquinas11]

age is determined by a measurement by society.

oh so its societies measurement (not subjective measurement) which governs peoples identity.

you’re just making the argument that gender = sex

We use the Julian solar calendar

Calendar measures time, not age. The calendar won’t tell me my age. It tells me what day it is. And what month. And what year.

You’re confusing time and age, much the same way you’re alleging others confuse sex and gender. Can you please stop denying people their right to define themselves as they see fit? Why are we limiting peoples ability to define themselves?

Gender however is about identity

You’ve given zero argument why gender is about identity but age isn’t.

colours

if you’re referring to human visible spectrum, it actually is defined based on radiation that has a range of 400 nanometers to 700 nanometers , where nanometer is a billionth of a meter.

so back to the question: what are the genders in this spectrum?

If you don’t see gender separate from sex me throwing what are new terms for you is only going to serve to muddy the water. How about we deal with that point first.

If you don’t see age separate from time me throwing what are new terms for you is only going to serve to muddy the water. How about we deal with that point first.

 

[livnlern]

Gender is a combination of your body, your personal identity and how you present that identity.

How about this: Gender is your body. That’s all you need to say. How you react to having that body is another story and may or may not be a part of reality.

 

[Rau]

Gender is a combination of your body, your personal identity and how you present that identity.

I think this takes us further away from understanding the concept. You’ve introduced another term that is even less clear “identity”. What is “personal identity”?

 

[Aquinas11]

Gender is a combination of your body, your personal identity and how you present that identity.

Wait so now people are not free to define their gender as they want since:
(1) they can’t only define their gender based on their body and
(2) they must present that gender ……