The Red Pill: How radical feminism is demeaning to men

[ToeInTheWater]

I am not being paid to promote this documentary in any way shape or form. I also have not coordinated with the makers of this documentary.

But I don’t understand why it’s such a burden to watch a free 10 minute video on youtube and let me know what you think.

Thank you for your disclosure. In any case I already told you why I don’t see a point in watching the “sneak peek” as many such snippets do NOT provide a good overview of the whole film. And I am not certainly not going to pay $10 to watch the whole thing.

The stuff about “sole-custody legislation” is very dubious, as shared custody tends to be the default.

Bear in mind that feminists are (surprise!) not actually that eager for women to shoulder all of the child-rearing, so the rise of feminism has in fact coincided with more shared custody.

And much of the outrage over “unequal custody” seems to treat the children as no different than financial assets or portable property, that they have to be “divided fairly” even if that’s not good for the actual welfare of the children themselves. Reminds me of a famous court case adjuciated by King Solomon.

 

[smichhertz]

The stuff about “sole-custody legislation” is very dubious, as shared custody tends to be the default.

This is exposed as false in the documentary. Shared custody is not the default. The father is turned into “Uncle Daddy” where he pays money and gets visitation rights, but is never allowed to be a parent.

The amount of research showing the damage caused by children due to absent fathers shows that this is the wrong approach. We need to start putting the children first. Men are not upset about the fact that they have to be fathers, men are upset about the fact that they are not allowed to be fathers.

If you think that’s wrong, watch the documentary and then you can retort it if you still disagree.

Bear in mind that feminists are (surprise!) not actually that eager for women to shoulder all of the child-rearing, so the rise of feminism has in fact coincided with more shared custody.

This is also false. Sure, they CLAIM they don’t like sole custody. But radical feminists have fought every single piece of legislation to actually enact shared / joint custody.

This article gives a good summary of the effort.

SB Bill 668 would have allowed for shared parenting was opposed by NOW and other feminist organizations.

They opposed and still do oppose it in America, Canada, Australia, etc. I can completely believe that there are good intentioned women who really do want shared custody when they register for women’s organizations, and donate, etc. But the leadership does not and actively fights it.

The documentary addresses these issues, so you might want to give it a watch.

 

[smichhertz]

Thank you for your disclosure. In any case I already told you why I don’t see a point in watching the “sneak peek” as many such snippets do NOT provide a good overview of the whole film. And I am not certainly not going to pay $10 to watch the whole thing.

Yeah, sorry for not disclosing that earlier, I missed that (getting a lot of responses and going too fast).

I think you have very valid point about the trailer part. But the sneak peek shows some of the points the documentary makes. It can stand on it’s own as a video, so you can just focus on the points raised in it and see if you agree.

“Trailers” are definitely designed to marked a movie and make it look good. But the sneak peek is designed to be a quick summary.

 

[Lea101]

Again, the documentary is careful to distinguish this. There’s definitely a vitriolic women-bashing internet community that labels themselves the red pill, and I certainly don’t support that.

But the documentary points out there are also legitimate activists involved in men’s rights who are raising good points that aren’t getting talked about.

Prior to this documentary, I thought the whole TRP community were all misogynists. The documentary exposes this as false.

Thank you for acknowledging that. A lot of people will deny that or say that they aren’t TRP.

Yes, there are issues that men face. While it’s good that there are people fighting against that, you have to admit that TRP is not really a social movement for equality. It’s difficult for me to put into words, but it’s not the male version of “feminism”. TRP is more closer to a “way of life” as opposed to a social movement for change, contrary to what the documentary leads us to believe. In fact, TRP is quite different from MRA. Somewhat linked but not the same.

So the title IS misleading. If you have free articles from the TRP community that supports your point, you would have better responses imo. Most of us don’t believe in sneak peaks and most of us won’t pay or take the time to watch it. The documentary focuses on inequality issues, when most of TRP isn’t about that (Sure they keep bringing it up, but they are more focused on being a certain way…to attract money or sex or a wife that doesn’t leave them broke). From what I have read about this documentary, the title seems to be more of a attention grabber, if anything. It’s really more about men’s activists, not TRP.

There is no name besides “egalitarian” to describe someone who wants fair treatment of men and women (and TRP men usually don’t call themselves that) so I do admit it’s rather difficult to explain myself…TRP and radical feminism are different, although they both are kind of ridiculous.

I don’t know if this is worth mentioning…but the younger feminists I am seeing seem to acknowledge some, if not most, of these issues.

The difference is that TRP is in favor of patriarchy, while feminists attribute these issues to patriarchy (eg men have higher rates of divorce because they were told since young that men are to be emotionally strong and hence they bottle things up in fear of being weak, women get preference over child custody because of the stereotype that women are more nurturing than a man could be etc etc)

I know “feminist” is a dirty word for most Catholics, but like you said, radical feminism and feminism is rather different. Radical feminism is just a fancy term for misandry.

 

[smichhertz]

Thank you for acknowledging that. A lot of people will deny that or say that they aren’t TRP.

Yes, there are issues that men face. While it’s good that there are people fighting against that, you have to admit that TRP is not really a social movement for equality. It’s difficult for me to put into words, but it’s not the male version of “feminism”. TRP is more closer to a “way of life” as opposed to a social movement for change, contrary to what the documentary leads us to believe. In fact, TRP is quite different from MRA. Somewhat linked but not the same.

So the title IS misleading. If you have free articles from the TRP community that supports your point, you would have better responses imo. Most of us don’t believe in sneak peaks and most of us won’t pay or take the time to watch it. The documentary focuses on inequality issues, when most of TRP isn’t about that (Sure they keep bringing it up, but they are more focused on being a certain way…to attract money or sex or a wife that doesn’t leave them broke). From what I have read about this documentary, the title seems to be more of a attention grabber, if anything. It’s really more about men’s activists, not TRP.

There is no name besides “egalitarian” to describe someone who wants fair treatment of men and women (and TRP men usually don’t call themselves that) so I do admit it’s rather difficult to explain myself…TRP and radical feminism are different, although they both are kind of ridiculous.

I don’t know if this is worth mentioning…but the younger feminists I am seeing seem to acknowledge some, if not most, of these issues.

The difference is that TRP is in favor of patriarchy, while feminists attribute these issues to patriarchy (eg men have higher rates of divorce because they were told since young that men are to be emotionally strong and hence they bottle things up in fear of being weak, women get preference over child custody because of the stereotype that women are more nurturing than a man could be etc etc)

I know “feminist” is a dirty word for most Catholics, but like you said, radical feminism and feminism is rather different. Radical feminism is just a fancy term for misandry.

Yeah you raise good points. The documentary maker did a reddit AMA and users questioned the title as misleading. I don’t want to speak for her, so here’s her own logic in defending the title:

The title The Red Pill refers to the cultural metaphor for “seeing the painful truth of reality” (which of course originated from the movie The Matrix). When I began this project in March 2013, 2.5 years ago, the MRM/MHRM was often using the term ‘the red pill’ when describing their moment of realization or enlightenment about gender politics. One of the very first articles I read on A Voice For Men was by Paul Elam called something like “red pills, blue skies, and tits”. AVFM also had the phrase, “take the red pill” as part of their logo at the time. They have since changed it.
The reason I chose this title is because early on in filming, MRAs were telling me that feminist ideology was ‘blue pill” and that they took the ‘red pill’, so while I was struggling to see and understand the opposing viewpoints, I used this terminology to compartmentalize the ideologies. I actually refer to red pill / blue pill often in my video diaries. When looking at the story arc and the journey I went on, the only title that made sense was ‘The Red Pill’ because it succinctly described my quest to understand the way MRAs (and anti-feminists) see the world.
Others have asked, do you know the difference between the MRM and TRP subreddit, yes I do and those differences will be briefly addressed in the film when describing the factions of the manosphere. However, my film’s title is not referring to TRP subreddit, it is in reference to its original popular culture usage (which is used my many other groups and conspiracists as well, it is not owned by the subreddit).
As far as why TRP subreddit appears on the screen in the sneak preview video, mainstream media constantly conflates all manosphere factions to seem as if they are all one in the same (PUA, MGTOW, MRM, TRP, etc). In the sneak preview video (around the 1 minute mark), that is an actual audio excerpt unedited from MSNBC. They did a story about the “Men’s Rights Movement’ and they said that the MRM “is a universe of message boards like reddit’s The Red Pill”. This is not me saying they are the same, it’s mainstream media, and in my film we will show what mainstream media says about the MRM before we go beneath the surface.

Source

In the documentary she also was very careful to separate out the various movements, TRP, MRM, MGTOW, etc. but she doesn’t do that until the very end. I thought that was a bad move and she should have done it at the beginning.

However, regardless the points raised are still valid and need to be talked about. So I still think the documentary is worth a watch with those caveats in mind.

 

[Xantippe]

The amount of research showing the damage caused by children due to absent fathers shows that this is the wrong approach. We need to start putting the children first. Men are not upset about the fact that they have to be fathers, men are upset about the fact that they are not allowed to be fathers.

I’m very familiar with the dual complaints of Red Pill “Christian” guys:

1. [while married] WAAAAH! I don’t want to have to take care of my kids! That’s the woman’s job! Taking care of little children is emasculating!
2. WAAAAH! Why did my ex-wife get custody? Unfair! WAAAAH!

You can see that every day on Dalrock.

 

[Norseman82]

Please post the link to the full documentary.

Because there is an implication that men are being abused because of the feminist movement. If it weren’t for the feminist movement, women would not be able to vote, they would not be able to have careers. Just look at the title of your post ‘How radical feminism is demeaning to me’. It implies feminism took away men’s rights. When the truth the matter is, on the link the issues men were complainig about have existed BEFORE the feminism monvement ie

• more men die due to work related incidents
• men are sent to war to die
• men can’t talk about their feelings. I suspect it is because other men will mock them, and this has been going on long before the feminist movement

Now, had you posted a video saying ‘Society needs to give men their rights’, I would have been a lot more sympathetic

The point in the video that I REALLY found made men look like cry babies is as follows: A man said that if a woman hits first, he can not hit back Of course NOT. If a woman hits a man, it is much easier for him to dodge the hits and run away. It is not as easy for a woman being hit by a man to get out of there. What man would want the right to hit back ???

You stopped reading my post ??? You posted on several occasion that no one was looking at the video. You wanted people to watch the video to hear your point. Perhaps you could start by listening to other people’s point

Again, just because the creator of the video is a femisint does not make her a good person. When analysing a statement to make sure it makes good sense, I look at the STATEMENT not the author of it. If every time a priest made a statement, I listened because he was a priest, I would have a lot more sins on my conscience. I always listen to the statement and make up my own mind.

.God bless you too

Amazing…in one post she lobs a false accusation (stating the title of the thread is “How radical feminism is demeaning to me” when it is really “How radical feminism is demeaning to men”), as well as perpetuating the double standard denying men’s self-defense rights.

We don’t need to buy a “Red Pill” video - just look at the male-bashing here on CAF, of which these comments are “exhibit A” (and it’s free!).

 

[DarkLight]

Amazing…in one post she lobs a false accusation (stating the title of the thread is “How radical feminism is demeaning to me” when it is really “How radical feminism is demeaning to men”), as well as perpetuating the double standard denying men’s self-defense rights.

We don’t need to buy a “Red Pill” video - just look at the male-bashing here on CAF, of which these comments are “exhibit A” (and it’s free!).

To be fair, most of the rest of us think that was a pretty silly statement. I think, in general, one ought to retreat where possible. If not possible one should use the minimal force necessary to protect yourself and extricate yourself from the situation.

In the spirit of charity, however, I would imagine the me/men thing was probably just a typo. Missing letters are a pretty easy typo to make, and there’s no indication in the post that it was meant to change things.

 

[Anglewannabe]

I agree with everything you just said and nothing in the video disagrees with that. It specifically targets RADICAL feminism. Not feminism in general. There are many feminists interviewed in the documentary. If you watch the sneak peek, it’ll give you a rough idea.

I did watch the video you posted and it makes no sense. It is in the video I got all the points men are complaining about. It simply discusses the issues men want rights over and in no way shape of form does it explain how radical feminism is the cause. Men are fighting for rights they didn’t even have BEFORE the feminist movement. Therefor, there is no place for feminisn in the discussion, but yet, you bring it up. I can only conclude that feminism is being falsely blames

This is exactly the video I have posted. This is also why I stopped reading your posts. Just watch the sneak peek and then report back. It’s won all kinds of women’s awards! It’s clearly not misogynistic in any way. You’re making a bunch of false assumptions that one watch of the sneak peek will quickly clear up.

Peace and God bless!

I DID watch the video before I posted. And I will state again, the video had no point, no conclusion and no moral of the story. It was just a bunch of statements. Honestly, I think it would be much more noble for you to read all of my post BEFORE asking me to watch the video. But then again, you probably have not read this far:shrug:

 

[Xantippe]

To be fair, most of the rest of us think that was a pretty silly statement.** I think, in general, one ought to retreat where possible. If not possible one should use the minimal force necessary to protect yourself and extricate yourself from the situation.**

**In the spirit of charity, however, I would imagine the me/men thing was probably just a typo. **Missing letters are a pretty easy typo to make, and there’s no indication in the post that it was meant to change things.

Yeah.

 

[Anglewannabe]

Apparently equal rights and equal treatment apply only when convenient. If you want to be treated equally to men, then why should you not be treated like a man when you decide to hit someone?

youtube.com/watch?v=H53NdJIux2s

First off, I NEVER said it was OK for a women to be the first one to hit.

Secondly, if someone weaker than me (a child or a senior) hits me first, I would do what is necessary to protect myself. I would NOT hit back.

 

[Xantippe]

First off, I NEVER said it was OK for a women to be the first one to hit.

Secondly, if someone weaker than me (a child or a senior) hits me first, I would do what is necessary to protect myself. I would NOT hit back.

Right.

Like a lot of parents, I’ve dealt with violent children on quite a few occasions. (And yes, it is possible to be seriously hurt by a small child–a dad I know wound up having to go to the hospital after his toddler son hit him in the eye.)

You keep them safe and you keep yourself safe. There’s no excuse for decking a smaller, weaker person when (as a bigger, stronger person) you have a lot of better options.

 

[smichhertz]

I’m very familiar with the dual complaints of Red Pill “Christian” guys:

1. [while married] WAAAAH! I don’t want to have to take care of my kids! That’s the woman’s job! Taking care of little children is emasculating!
2. WAAAAH! Why did my ex-wife get custody? Unfair! WAAAAH!

You can see that every day on Dalrock.

Again, I’ve been careful to separate the documentary from that community, and denounce it as misogynistic. And the documentary does state at the end that all the MRAs interviewed do not see eye to eye with the subreddit and disagree with it.

So please be careful to understand that I’m not denying that there are men who were totally un-involved in childcare who then push for custody solely as a way to “get back” at the wife.

However, there are also men who are very serious about being a good father in this documentary. They have one man in there who was able to provide proof that the mother was abusive to the child and was desperately trying to win custody but after 15 years of court battles still lost. And there are other stories like that as well. Those men, are not TRP community and they deserve to have their voices heard too.

Give it a shot! It’s really good! And it’s very fair. It won a woman’s award so it’s not at all offensive to women. It was done by a woman!

 

[starshiptrooper]

Secondly, if someone weaker than me (a child or a senior) hits me first, I would do what is necessary to protect myself. I would NOT hit back.

Neither person claims to be your equal in that scenario. If someone claims equality with me and then strikes me, why am I not justified in treating them accordingly?

Right.

Like a lot of parents, I’ve dealt with violent children on quite a few occasions. (And yes, it is possible to be seriously hurt by a small child–a dad I know wound up having to go to the hospital after his toddler son hit him in the eye.)

You keep them safe and you keep yourself safe. There’s no excuse for decking a smaller, weaker person when (as a bigger, stronger person) you have a lot of better options.

So are women equal to men or do they need special consideration like children as your post implies?

 

[DarkLight]

Neither person claims to be your equal in that scenario. Claim to be my equal and attack me and I will treat you accordingly.

Claiming to be your moral equal doesn’t mean claiming to be your physical equal. If I understand angelwannabe’s post, the same would apply to a professional boxer and a thin, petite man.

 

[smichhertz]

I did watch the video you posted and it makes no sense. It is in the video I got all the points men are complaining about. It simply discusses the issues men want rights over and in no way shape of form does it explain how radical feminism is the cause. Men are fighting for rights they didn’t even have BEFORE the feminist movement. Therefor, there is no place for feminisn in the discussion, but yet, you bring it up. I can only conclude that feminism is being falsely blames

I DID watch the video before I posted. And I will state again, the video had no point, no conclusion and no moral of the story. It was just a bunch of statements. Honestly, I think it would be much more noble for you to read all of my post BEFORE asking me to watch the video. But then again, you probably have not read this far:shrug:

Whoa whoa whoa back up. Radical feminism is not the CAUSE. That’s not the point of the video. Rather radical feminism is blocking the efforts to enact men’s rights. And no, it doesn’t show that in the sneak peek, you have to watch the full length documentary to see it.

Example: 1 in 3 women experience domestic violence, but 1 in 4 men do as well. Yet we have thousands of women’s shelters and (previously) none for men.

So what do MRAs do? Start a shelter of course! And what do the radical feminists do? Protest it, demand it be shut down, block funding for it, etc. The response was so vitriolic that the owner killed himself. Now it’s important to note: not ALL feminists are like this, this is just the radical feminist movement. But this is happening and it’s happening all over and it’s happening with a lot of men’s issues.

When I said “watch the video” I mean “watch the full length documentary”. The sneak peek is not going to spell out all the logic and present the moral.

But the moral is good! Women have issues, and they should have a space to talk about them. But men have issues too, and they deserve a space to talk about them. The documentary concludes with “There are many opinions on gender and gender equality and I believe all of them are worthy of being heard. But when one side is being totally silenced, it makes it impossible to achieve” (paraphrasing).

 

[starshiptrooper]

Claiming to be your moral equal doesn’t mean claiming to be your physical equal.

So equality only when it suits you. How convenient. That is not how that works. If you want to be regarded as equal to a man, you can take the consequences of your actions like a man.

 

[DarkLight]

So equality only when it suits you. How convenient. That is not how that works. If you want to be regarded as equal to a man, you can take the consequences of your actions like a man.

You’re rather conveniently ignoring the second half of my post. Would you say that a petite (male) computer scientist is the physical equal of a professional boxer? Would it be appropriate if the first slapped the second for the boxer to knock the first out? Does this imply they aren’t really to be regarded as “equals”?

 

[BlueEyedLady]

1 in 3 women are abused by domestic violence, but 1 in 4 men are as well. Yet we have thousands of women’s shelters and only 1 for men. Not only that, but radical feminists actively protest men’s shelters which is complete hypocrisy!

I torrented this movie a couple of months ago and watched it with my husband. I was really, really disappointed.

One, by calling it The Red Pill but focusing almost exclusively on MRAs, the filmmaker really muddled the issue, and that may have been intentional. Two, in order to keep MRAs talking, she avoided asking any sort of hard hitting or probing questions. Three, why did she just rely on the opinions and stats of activists (on both sides), instead of including segments outlining results of credible, accepted research? I don’t care what online nerds or “Big Red” have to say, I’m interested in credentialed experts. Four, humoring activists for 2 hours and then wrapping up by quickly listing real, quantifiable problems was such a cop out. Finally, her “personal journey” was awkward, unnecessary, and ultimately just an embarrassing emotional appeal. It would have been better as a pure documentary.

My husband liked it even less than I did. In the beginning of the movie, a man shouts at the activists that men aren’t suffering, those guys are just pathetic. I thought that was a bit harsh, but that summarized my husband’s thoughts throughout.

The men’s rights movement (red pill misogyny totally aside), is pathetic. Like Xan pointed out, it’s composed entirely of whining online instead of real action. It is also predicated on two conflicting notions: men are inherently stronger and superior, and men are just as vulnerable and require the same kid gives as women. I think that’s why my husband was less impressed than I was, he’s lived 3 decades as a white, American male and was not convinced he’s a real victim in society. In this way, the men’s rights movement is downright disingenuous; race and sexuality are always swept under the rug.

Finally, the movie should have been subtitled ‘Statistics Without Context’, as the domestic violence stat above shows. Who is most likely to be hospitalized or killed in a domestic dispute or when trying to leave a violent partner? Yep, that’s why there are more women’s shelters. The failure to tell the whole story was frustrating, because to believe anything the movie said you had to really dig into the numbers yourself. Not good.

This isn’t to say that men don’t have legitimate issues, only that this specific movie did a very bad job of exploring and explaining them. I also really hate the starting premise that these issues are at odds with women’s issues. Some may be, but starting from an adversarial standpoint really hurt the movie and the discussion.

 

[smichhertz]

I torrented this movie a couple of months ago and watched it with my husband. I was really, really disappointed.

One, by calling it The Red Pill but focusing almost exclusively on MRAs, the filmmaker really muddled the issue, and that may have been intentional. Two, in order to keep MRAs talking, she avoided asking any sort of hard hitting or probing questions. Three, why did she just rely on the opinions and stats of activists (on both sides), instead of including segments outlining results of credible, accepted research? I don’t care what online nerds or “Big Red” have to say, I’m interested in credentialed experts. Four, humoring activists for 2 hours and then wrapping up by quickly listing real, quantifiable problems was such a cop out. Finally, her “personal journey” was awkward, unnecessary, and ultimately just an embarrassing emotional appeal. It would have been better as a pure documentary.

My husband liked it even less than I did. In the beginning of the movie, a man shouts at the activists that men aren’t suffering, those guys are just pathetic. I thought that was a bit harsh, but that summarized my husband’s thoughts throughout.

The men’s rights movement (red pill misogyny totally aside), is pathetic. Like Xan pointed out, it’s composed entirely of whining online instead of real action. It is also predicated on two conflicting notions: men are inherently stronger and superior, and men are just as vulnerable and require the same kid gives as women. I think that’s why my husband was less impressed than I was, he’s lived 3 decades as a white, American male and was not convinced he’s a real victim in society. In this way, the men’s rights movement is downright disingenuous; race and sexuality are always swept under the rug.

Finally, the movie should have been subtitled ‘Statistics Without Context’, as the domestic violence stat above shows. Who is most likely to be hospitalized or killed in a domestic dispute or when trying to leave a violent partner? Yep, that’s why there are more women’s shelters. The failure to tell the whole story was frustrating, because to believe anything the movie said you had to really dig into the numbers yourself. Not good.

This isn’t to say that men don’t have legitimate issues, only that this specific movie did a very bad job of exploring and explaining them. I also really hate the starting premise that these issues are at odds with women’s issues. Some may be, but starting from an adversarial standpoint really hurt the movie and the discussion.

Firstly, I would like to say thank you so much for watching it first and then commenting. I really appreciate it.

I think to say it’s composed entirely of whining online is not an accurate representation. Lots of movements start online. And when they do, lots of times it can include a lot of hostile extremism. At one point the Civil Rights movement was considered extreme.

It’s now coming out of the woodwork and becoming more legitimized. They’re starting to have conferences, they’re starting to meet and discuss issues and they’re realizing there’s a lot of stuff men face that we need to talk about too (like pornography addiction as an example). The issue is that radical feminists (not moderate feminists) are interfering and protesting them.

The premise ISN’T that these issues are at odds with women’s issues, but rather compliment them. For each issue a women deals with there’s a complimentary issue that a man has to deal with too. And by focusing exclusively on one, we’re not going to get to the bottom of it. So focusing exclusively on men’s issues or exclusively on women’s issues is wrong. We need to look at both.

Finally, I disagree with hard-hitting questions approach. I feel like that always just creates silly “gotcha” moments for journalists. Good documentaries ask open ended questions and let the person talk out their side of things. Now, you are correct that means we only heard the MRA side of things. Even when interviewing the feminists it was clear that they did not know the MRA issues. But that’s also kind of the point. There is currently no feminist response to the MRA issues because they haven’t heard of them. Which means there’s no dialogue. Ideally we should have men discussing men’s issues, women discussing women’s issues and then both working together to solve them.