The Red Pill: How radical feminism is demeaning to men

[DarkLight]

If you ask me, both the MRA and feminist movements are equally pointless. Women have equality with men in the law in most western countries. The only purpose of modern feminism seems to be to push abortion and reproductive “rights” and shame women out of the home and into the workplace. Never have I hard a self-declared feminist say that women should be helped to stay at home and mind their children if they so-wished.

Pretty sure I’ve said exactly that on this forum before.

Of course, it’s a complicated subject, because what happens if that woman stays home for 20 years minding the kids and then her husband divorces her, or has an affair? The conservatives will cry foul if she gets money from her now ex-husband. But good luck getting a decent job in this economy when you’ve been out of the workforce for 20 years!

 

[edwest2]

I thought it referred to that scene in The Matrix, choose the red pill and wake up to the reality of being a man oppressed by those radical feminists.

Men oppressed? How can this be? We’ve just been informed that we’re suffering from a new problem: White Male Privilege!

“Yeah. Yesterday was a good day until some stranger told me I got White Male Privilege.”

“You know how you solve that? Quit listening to strangers who don’t know anything about you.”

There are impolite people out there who will put a broad stroke of paint across an entire group of people.

Ed

 

[starshiptrooper]

If you ask me, both the MRA and feminist movements are equally pointless. Women have equality with men in the law in most western countries.

They have certain legal rights that men do not.

The only purpose of modern feminism seems to be to push abortion and reproductive “rights” and shame women out of the home and into the workplace. Never have I heard a self-declared feminist say that women should be helped to stay at home and mind their children if they so-wished.

That and whining about a patriarchy that has been toothless for a long time now.

On the other hand, the MRA movement seems to be full of bitter, misogynistic, and insecure men who seem to have a very distorted view of manhood and femininity and just want to be victims. Not to mention the serious distortion of the Bible that the christian ones engage in.

We are mostly in agreement here.

 

[Walking_Home]

AdamPeter:

If you ask me, both the MRA and feminist movements are equally pointless. Women have equality with men in the law in most western countries. The only purpose of modern feminism seems to be to push abortion and reproductive “rights” and shame women out of the home and into the workplace. Never have I hard a self-declared feminist say that women should be helped to stay at home and mind their children if they so-wished.

Pretty sure I’ve said exactly that on this forum before.

Of course, it’s a complicated subject, because what happens if that woman stays home for 20 years minding the kids and then her husband divorces her, or has an affair? The conservatives will cry foul if she gets money from her now ex-husband. But good luck getting a decent job in this economy when you’ve been out of the workforce for 20 years!

---

Yup.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Do you think I agree with Obama, Pope Francis, Bill Clinton, Emanuel Macron, the trash that Hollywood produces, or the CEO of Starbucks? That touches on another issue. The problem is not feminists so much as the white knights who enable them. With the exception of the God Emperor, very few men in the West are willing to do or say anything that actually challenges feminism be it in religion, politics, entertainment or business.

Do you consider yourself successful? Have you set goals and reached them? Do you feel like you can comfortably and confidently interact with others? You don’t have to answer; just something to think about. It seems that most of the men featured in the film would have to answer ‘no’ to those questions if they were being honest.

I mean, c’mon. When the Pope, who leads the world’s largest patriarchal organization (I don’t say that disparagingly, but it is a fact. The Church is led exclusively by men and the Pope is chosen exclusively by men) that has consistently stood against almost every modern feminist position (birth control, abortion, women in leadership, etc) is called a “white knight”…well, the issue is not with the Pope.

If you find that literally the whole world is the problem, maybe it’s time to look inward and ask yourself what’s really going on.

 

[LilyM]

If you ask me, both the MRA and feminist movements are equally pointless. Women have equality with men in the law in most western countries. The only purpose of modern feminism seems to be to push abortion and reproductive “rights” and shame women out of the home and into the workplace. Never have I heard a self-declared feminist say that women should be helped to stay at home and mind their children if they so-wished.

On the other hand, the MRA movement seems to be full of bitter, misogynistic, and insecure men who seem to have a very distorted view of manhood and femininity and just want to be victims. Not to mention the serious distortion of the Bible that the christian ones engage in.

I am a self-declared feminist, and for the 25-odd years that I’ve been adult enough to think about such issues, I’ve been happy to say to anyone who will listen that women need to be supported to stay at home and raise their children if they so wish.

It’s essentially the sentiment Hillary Clinton expressed when she talked about “it takes a village to raise a child” - that there needs to be recognition of the importance of the task of child-rearing and support for those who do so.

Nor am I alone among the women I know by any means.

 

[LilyM]

I am a self-declared feminist, and for the 25-odd years that I’ve been adult enough to think about such issues, I’ve been happy to say to anyone who will listen that women need to be supported to stay at home and raise their children if they so wish.

Nor am I alone among the women I know by any means.

 

[DarkLight]

I am a self-declared feminist, and for the 25-odd years that I’ve been adult enough to think about such issues, I’ve been happy to say to anyone who will listen that women need to be supported to stay at home and raise their children if they so wish.

It’s essentially the sentiment Hillary Clinton expressed when she talked about “it takes a village to raise a child” - that there needs to be recognition of the importance of the task of child-rearing and support for those who do so.

Nor am I alone among the women I know by any means.

Right. And I think this is a feminist position. I’ve known men who would say that things like childcare are “women’s work” in a derogatory tone of voice, like it was something beneath them that should be left to mere women. (Surprisingly, this was the same guy who later decided he wasn’t into his wife anymore and left her with the kids while he moved in with his mistress. )

We’ve also seen a couple examples on this forum of men who think just because their wives stay home with the kids, instead of being in paid employment, that their wives “aren’t working” and should just be able to have everything ready for their husbands. And of course never need a vacation.

 

[ConfusedLucy]

I think in many cases the issues are very different. The biggest issue I’ve heard from guys who were abused was less the lack of things like shelters and more difficulties in therapy and counseling and especially in finding support groups. Many found that there weren’t men-only support groups, and that women’s support groups were often reluctant to admit men because many of the victims weren’t comfortable around men. Also that there are unique social issues that affect male victims and therapists were often inexperienced with them.

My impression is men are less likely to be financially controlled, simply because it’s far more normal for women to stay home than men (which makes it easier to pressure a woman into staying home and handing over their finances without raising eyebrows). Both sexes have the ability to ruin the other financially with repeated court filings, sadly.

There are some very nasty attitudes towards abused men. Personally I don’t think it’s a bad thing for men to come together and have a dialogue on men’s issues, I just don’t think this particular movement is the way to go.

It’s also not great when this issue turns into a game of oppression top trumps between men and women.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

The only purpose of modern feminism seems to be to push abortion and reproductive “rights” and shame women out of the home and into the workplace. Never have I heard a self-declared feminist say that women should be helped to stay at home and mind their children if they so-wished.

For what it’s worth, I hear it a lot. I constantly see memes on Facebook about how feminism is about choice and there’s nothing anti-feminist about making the choice to stay home and raise babies.

While I agree with the sentiment, I have my own issue with this recurring meme. Most stay at home parents are married, obviously. With that in mind, I’m not comfortable framing the decision to stay home as the “woman’s choice”. Staying home and working both impact the family’s lifestyle, finances, schedule, etc. and as such, should always be a family decision. I have a cousin who refuses to work outside the home even though her husband begs her to because even with his full time manufacturing job, they struggle to get by with WIC and food stamps. Likewise, a family with a sick, elderly parent or a special needs child may very well need someone to stay home, and if the lower earning spouse (statistically, usually the woman) refuses to even give it a try, resentment and struggle for everyone will follow.

And that’s one area where both MRAs and modern feminists go wrong. They frame everything as the woman’s choice and responsibility, never as a family decision. In functional marriages and families, that’s just not how it works. The stereotypical boogeyman “career woman” isn’t usually making her own, unilateral choice and going against her husband’s desires. Same when SAHMs. Same with women on or off hormonal birth control. You get the idea.

 

[Xantippe]

There are some very nasty attitudes towards abused men. Personally I don’t think it’s a bad thing for men to come together and have a dialogue on men’s issues, I just don’t think this particular movement is the way to go.

It’s also not great when this issue turns into a game of oppression top trumps between men and women.

Speaking of men’s issues–how about the issue that once a guy reaches around 50, his continued employment gets very dicey in a lot of industries?

You see this during recessions–get laid off and face unemployment and underemployment until retirement age.

Or how about the issue that with outsourcing, overseas imports, and mechanization, there’s less and less of a chance for unskilled male laborers to earn a middle class income?

Or how about the problem of older men being socially isolated and suffering disproportionately after bereavement?

wbur.org/onpoint/2017/03/23/men-middle-age-friendship

One of the big problems with MRAs/Red Pill guys/MGTOWs is that they only want to talk about issues that they feel like they can blame women for.

 

[Xantippe]

And that’s one area where both MRAs and modern feminists go wrong. They frame everything as the woman’s choice and responsibility, never as a family decision. In functional marriages and families, that’s just not how it works. The stereotypical boogeyman “career woman” isn’t usually making her own, unilateral choice and going against her husband’s desires. Same when SAHMs. Same with women on or off hormonal birth control. You get the idea.

Those are some very interesting points.

I know that when my baby brother finally got to be school age, my dad was VERY eager for my mom to start bringing in some income.

 

[AdamP88]

Those are some very interesting points.

I know that when my baby brother finally got to be school age, my dad was VERY eager for my mom to start bringing in some income.

Yeah. I’d tend to think that if there are no small kids on the scene there is no reason why the wife needs to stay at home. I wouldn’t have married a woman that told me she wanted to pursue her career over caring for our kids. I believe one parent should stay home to mind the kids. My preference would be to work but if my wife ends up making more than me then I’d stay at home.

 

[AdamP88]

There are some very nasty attitudes towards abused men. Personally I don’t think it’s a bad thing for men to come together and have a dialogue on men’s issues, I just don’t think this particular movement is the way to go.

It’s also not great when this issue turns into a game of oppression top trumps between men and women.

I’ll be honest…and I’m probably going to get blasted for this, but I honestly just find it very hard to comprehend in what context a man would end up a victim of abuse from his wife/girlfriend. I mean, I can understand verbal abuse etc, but how would a guy end up being literally battered by his wife?

Not being funny here. I just find it hard to envision.

 

[lemongrass80]

I’ll be honest…and I’m probably going to get blasted for this, but I honestly just find it very hard to comprehend in what context a man would end up a victim of abuse from his wife/girlfriend. I mean, I can understand verbal abuse etc, but how would a guy end up being literally battered by his wife?

Not being funny here. I just find it hard to envision.

Don’t feel bad…until I witnessed it first hand I had a hard time picturing it as well.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Yeah. I’d tend to think that if there are no small kids on the scene there is no reason why the wife needs to stay at home. I wouldn’t have married a woman that told me she wanted to pursue her career over caring for our kids. I believe one parent should stay home to mind the kids. My preference would be to work but if my wife ends up making more than me then I’d stay at home.

Personally, I don’t want to stay home and my husband would be very against the idea anyway given our young ages and how early I am into my career.

But, his fantasy dream life would be me leaving the house for 8 hours every day to earn beaucoup bucks while he stays home and teaches our five young kids to read, play drums, and throw a ball around with our ever-loyal dog at his side. He likes working much less than I do, but given each of our income trajectories, he can keep dreaming.

It’s so important to have these discussions before you marry - it’s just part of determining if your values and long term goals are compatible.

 

[AdamP88]

Personally, I don’t want to stay home and my husband would be very against the idea anyway given our young ages and how early I am into my career.

But, his fantasy dream life would be me leaving the house for 8 hours every day to earn beaucoup bucks while he stays home and teaches our five young kids to read, play drums, and throw a ball around with our ever-loyal dog at his side. He likes working much less than I do, but given each of our income trajectories, he can keep dreaming.

It’s so important to have these discussions before you marry - it’s just part of determining if your values and long term goals are compatible.

I agree. I have an uncle who stays at home and minds his kids. His wife is a teacher (like me), he was a journalist. She made more cash than he did, so the logical thing was for her to keep working. I don’t think I could do that. I would be very much into the idea that my “job” as the husband is to provide for the family and my wife’s “job” is to look after the home. Not that I’d be totally inflexible about that but it’s definitely my preference. We had that conversation and it turned out that her dream was to be a stay at home mom. So we’re both happy.

 

[DarkLight]

I’ll be honest…and I’m probably going to get blasted for this, but I honestly just find it very hard to comprehend in what context a man would end up a victim of abuse from his wife/girlfriend. I mean, I can understand verbal abuse etc, but how would a guy end up being literally battered by his wife?

Not being funny here. I just find it hard to envision.

One big thing you have to remember is that most of us have a strong natural aversion to hurting someone else, and especially someone we’re in a relationship with. So the fact that someone is physically capable of fighting back doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re psychologically set to do that.

Add to this that emotional abuse often precedes physical. I think people underestimate the damage of emotional abuse. An emotional abuser will convince their victim that no one else cares for them, that the abuser is the best they’re ever going to get, that they deserve everything that’s being done to them. By the time it escalates to physical abuse, the victim is often in a state of mind that they “deserve” to be hit, that if they were just a better partner there spouse wouldn’t “have” to hit them.

There’s also the fact that a lot of men are afraid of being painted as an abuser themselves if they fight back. Because of the idea that women can’t batter men, men are afraid if they physically protect themselves, they will be labeled as batterers themselves.

(And yes, most of that’s stuff I learned from feminism. There’s a lot of psychology that goes into abuse, and that means a lot of times even when the victim is physically capable of defending themselves or getting out of the situation, there’s very strong psychological conditioning not to. That’s actually the reasoning behind a lot of mandatory arrest laws and pushing the state to prosecute domestic violence even in the face of an uncooperative victim - recognition that the trap of abuse is as much psychological as physical.)

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I agree. I have an uncle who stays at home and minds his kids. His wife is a teacher (like me), he was a journalist. She made more cash than he did, so the logical thing was for her to keep working. I don’t think I could do that. I would be very much into the idea that my “job” as the husband is to provide for the family and my wife’s “job” is to look after the home. Not that I’d be totally inflexible about that but it’s definitely my preference. We had that conversation and it turned out that her dream was to be a stay at home mom. So we’re both happy.

Specific careers matter too. I’m a new lawyer, and as much as I enjoy it, it’s not conducive to having a family. If I were married to a teacher or someone who worked from home, it might be different. But, my husband is a CPA turned IT business analyst (a financial-IT hybrid role), and while the pay is great, he’s kind of the face of the company’s IT department and doesn’t have the flexibility the developers under him do. We decided we wanted to have kids within the next couple of years, and to make that work, the most logical thing for me to do was find a new career that still utilized my legal education and skills. About a 3 days after being accepted into a PhD Assistantship across the country, we found out I’m due with our first about a week after I was set to start.. (I was able to put it off a semester, but talk about fate!)

I’m a very lucky woman. My husband is objectively an amazing and wonderful man, but even more importantly, we’re compatible and we give each other flexibility and understanding. I supported him through a career change, and now he’s supporting me through mine. We both made the switch with a future family in mind - CPAs and lawyers both have killer hours and a lot of stress. Not to say our new paths are easy, but he’s working far less for the same money and I know a lot more PhD hopefuls and recent grads raising kids than I do young female lawyers because there’s more flexibility in when you do the work and it’s a heck of a lot easier to take a day or two off without ruining someone else’s life.

I’m sure MRAs and internet feminists alike could rip our life choices apart, but what difference does it make? As long as everyone is happy and working towards the betterment of the family together, the specifics will take care of themselves.

 

[Walking_Home]

A report from the first national gathering of MRA’s

Sex with 13 and younger is pedophilia.

gq.com/story/mens-rights-activism-the-red-pill

…

He who would free one Robert Maynard is named Albert Calabrese. He finds me with the Honey Badgers, but he keeps his distance. He knows who Typhon Blue is, has watched the videos she’s posted online in which she discusses the sexual abuse of boys by women. Calabrese does not exactly share her concern. His issue is girls. His friend Robert Maynard, he says, is in prison because of one. She was 14. “He received a naked picture of her,” Calabrese says, his vowels rounded and clipped, his indignation over the verb _received_making his eyes wide.

Like Calabrese, Maynard was a graduate student in physics at the University of Arkansas. Together they studied black holes. They talked about men’s issues. But Calabrese didn’t know his friend was in trouble until Maynard announced he was leaving school. For prison. Ten years. He didn’t even touch the girl, Calabrese says.

Not that he may not want to do more, believes Calabrese. He says Maynard might argue that 14 is sexually mature, that he thinks the age of consent should be the average age of menarche: 12.3. “He likes women,” Calabrese says. “He does not unlike women just because they’re young.” Calabrese does not unlike preteen girls, either.

But this is not a conversation to have with Typhon Blue around, so we wait until after lunch, when I catch his eye across the VFW lobby. Or maybe he catches mine. He’s good at this kind of communication. A barely perceptible nod, not a wink but a flicker, and it’s like we’ve agreed. We both leave the hall and make for the shore. Dead fish slap against the crumbling concrete lining the lake’s edge. Gusting wind does nothing to dissipate the heat or the smell.

**There is a point on which he disagrees with Maynard, Calabrese says. Calabrese thinks 12.3 as an age of consent is too old. He’d go with 12. “I would rather err on the side of 12-year-olds having sex than on the side of ruining men’s lives.”

He doesn’t deny that there are cases of real abuse. But he suspects that adult men are better lovers for young girls than boys their own age. “The teenage boy is, I would suspect, more interested in sex.” Whereas the adult would be interested in “substance,” he says. “Or even a mentor-protge relationship.” Teenage boys, he says, brag.**

“Maynard didn’t brag?” I ask.

Calabrese laughs. “No!” Then, under his breath, “That would be silly.”

Calabrese does not brag. Not really. “I’m easily Googleable,” he says. He is: Albert J. Calabrese Jr., a former substitute teacher in Akron, Ohio, arrested for felony sexual misconduct with a minor. “My chick wasn’t a student,” he claims. “She asked me out.” He thought it would help his case if he told the police she was more experienced than he was. “I was remarkably naive,” he says. He didn’t know he had a right to remain silent. He’s never watched cop shows. Such programs, he says, “are emotionally frustrating to me.” He says you shouldn’t take pleasure in others’ suffering.

He wishes he didn’t feel what he feels. Not because he believes these feelings are wrong, but because the world does. He would like to be part of the world. Right now, he’s not. A sex offender. Unemployable. He can’t live where he wants. He can’t say what he really thinks. He can’t, he believes, be fully human.

He stands on the concrete shore, cocks his black-jeaned hips, and spreads his arms wide, embracing the water, his back to the world. Letting us read: “Free Robert Maynard.” Calabrese drove fourteen and a half hours to be here, he took uppers, and he’s still taking them; he’s pale and dappled with cold sweat under the hot gray sun…