The Reliability of the Koran

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When we are all raised up and held to account then we will see how reliable was the Qur’an.

Then again, I still think this discussion is fruitless.

For one, I doubt that there is any article I could link that would even be clicked on by readers in this thread, much less actually read in its entirety. If I attempt to type a sensible argument on my own, the response (as demonstrated on page one) will only be hyperlinks to other sites and articles instead of anyone actually reading and considering my thoughts. So I don’t think that would be an efficient use of my time. Better to cook falafel? I don’t know how to cook falafel, though.

The other reason I think this discussion is pretty much useless, aside from everyone having made up their mind, is that nobody’s going to bother actually reading the Qur’an to even see what it says.

Sooooooooo… no thanks. 🤷
 
Sam got it right…reliability is not a proof of divine origin…am sure all Mormoms find Smith’s book reliable…But for argument’s sake, Muslims can tell us what they have and we can write what we have…not to convince but to exchange different points of view,…

Amy, i once asked you about a verse that is no longer in the Quran, and you replied that it was abrogated. Do you really believe that a word of Allah is missing from his eternal book because of abrogation?
 
inJESUS said:
Sam got it right…reliability is not a proof of divine origin…am sure all Mormoms find Smith’s book reliable…But for argument’s sake, Muslims can tell us what they have and we can write what we have…not to convince but to exchange different points of view,…

Amy, i once asked you about a verse that is no longer in the Quran, and you replied that it was abrogated. Do you really believe that a word of Allah is missing from his eternal book because of abrogation?
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I believe that Allah reserves the right to include and remove whatever He wills from His book.
 
abrogated and missing verses, but that makes no sense.

I have never heard of missing verses
 
Petergee said:
Nonsense. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, not Arabic. The books of Moses were written at the time when the Egyptians called their king Pharoah, and this word was adopted into the Hebrew language as a generic name for an Egyptian king. (eg note the book of Exodus never refers to Rameses II by name, simply by the word “Pharoah”).
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The FACT of the matter is that at the time the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the ONLY one who would have known that the sovereign head of Egypt at the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh) was not called ‘Pharaoh’ would have been none other than the Almighty Himself… unless perhaps if you wish to argue that Satan would have known about it as well but this really would be a separate issue altogether.

Certainly, the Christians and Jews at the time were absolutely clueless about this as can be so clearly seen in all of their scriptures and writings at the time.
 
Sister_Amy said:
I believe that Allah reserves the right to include and remove whatever He wills from His book.
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so why did he keep the other abrogated verses?

Yes Amy God can do whatever He wants…but here you are trespassing that theological truth in the favour of nonsense, a deity so unlike the God of the Bible. Just because God can do whatever He wants does not mean that he reveals something and then abrogate it, sometimes leaving it in the book sometimes not…this is no more omnipotent but childish and inconsistent with himself before being inconsistent with humans.

Do you think the non-Muslims got it so wrong when they accused Muhammad of giving an order and then changing his mind?
 
algebra said:
abrogated and missing verses, but that makes no sense.

I have never heard of missing verses
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verse of stoning is missing in the Quran as per the authentic hadith.

"When the verses “Rajm” [Stoning] and ayah “Rezah Kabir” descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad (S) a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning.
Sunan Ibne Majah, Vol 2, P 39

Al-Muttaqi 'Ali bin Husam al-Din in his book “Mukhtasar Kanz al-'Ummal” printed on the margin of Imam Ahmad’s Musnad, Volume 2, page 2, in his hadith about chapter 33, said that Ibn Mardawayh reported that Hudhayfah said:
'Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?’ I said, ‘72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning.
 
hamba2han said:
The FACT of the matter is that at the time the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the ONLY one who would have known that the sovereign head of Egypt at the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh) was not called ‘Pharaoh’ would have been none other than the Almighty Himself… unless perhaps if you wish to argue that Satan would have known about it as well but this really would be a separate issue altogether.

Certainly, the Christians and Jews at the time were absolutely clueless about this as can be so clearly seen in all of their scriptures and writings at the time.
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One of the biggest historical mistakes of the Koran is related to the identity of the Pharaoh. Unlike the Torah, the Koran mistakenly presumes that Pharaoh was the personal name of a specific Egyptian King that lived at the time of Moses. For Mohammad’s scribes, there was only ONE Pharaoh, who oppressed Israelites before the Exodus.

It is ironic that Muslim scholars want to cover up this apparent mistake in their scripture with a so-called miracle. :rolleyes:
 
inJESUS said:
so why did he keep the other abrogated verses?
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I am not going to pretend that I can tell you WHY God did this, that, or something else. Allah is not the one who is questioned, WE are questioned.
Yes Amy God can do whatever He wants…but here you are trespassing that theological truth in the favour of nonsense, a deity so unlike the God of the Bible. Just because God can do whatever He wants does not mean that he reveals something and then abrogate it, sometimes leaving it in the book sometimes not…this is no more omnipotent but childish and inconsistent with himself before being inconsistent with humans.
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Actually, as I’ve mentioned before, Christians agree that God did abrogate what He revealed, sometimes leaving it in the Book, and sometimes not. Namely, according to Christianity, He abrogated the Law/Torah with the Gospel.
 
Christ did not abrogate the Thorah. Christ indeed invalidate the Talmud.
 
Angelos said:
One of the biggest historical mistakes of the Koran is related to the identity of the Pharaoh. Unlike the Torah, the Koran mistakenly presumes that Pharaoh was the personal name of a specific Egyptian King that lived at the time of Moses. For Mohammad’s scribes, there was only ONE Pharaoh, who oppressed Israelites before the Exodus.

It is ironic that Muslim scholars want to cover up this apparent mistake in their scripture with a so-called miracle. :rolleyes:
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Actually they are both wrong. There is simply not a shred of evidence to support the Exodus account of Jewish liberation from Egypt.
 
Postmodern said:
Actually they are both wrong. There is simply not a shred of evidence to support the Exodus account of Jewish liberation from Egypt.
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Actually, newer research disagrees. There was a show on History International channel that puts Exodus into historical context and shows when it occured. Basically, the common thought has people looking for somethign a century after it actually occured. If I can find a link to the show, I’ll post it.
 
hamba2han said:
The FACT of the matter is that at the time the Qur’an was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), the ONLY one who would have known that the sovereign head of Egypt at the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh) was not called ‘Pharaoh’ would have been none other than the Almighty Himself
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Nonsense upon nonsense. Egypt had very meticulous historians who kept records of the names of every Pharoah from about 2000 BC right down to the last Cleopatra not long before Christ was born. It was common knowledge in Egypt and throughout the rest of the Christian world that “Pharoah” was merely a generic name. Let’s face it, Mahomet boobooed on this one (admittedly one of his smaller errors).
… unless perhaps if you wish to argue that Satan would have known about it as well but this really would be a separate issue altogether.
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Of course he knew. Satan is a clever deceiver. Christ did not call him “the father of lies” for nothing. History is littered with examples of Satan using parts of the truth to make people think that what he is saying comes from God. Except in this case what you’re claiming to be the truth is quite false.
Certainly, the Christians and Jews at the time were absolutely clueless about this as can be so clearly seen in all of their scriptures and writings at the time.
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LOL. You are very funny.
 
swariffin said:
Christ did not abrogate the Torah.
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True. He fulfilled it. As He said, “not one iota” will be removed from the Law (the Torah).
Christ indeed invalidated the Talmud.
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Impossible, because it was only written in the Middle Ages, centuries after His resurrection and ascension. Though you are correct that it is not the Word of God. So you could say He invalidated it when the Pope and bishops, authorised by Christ and acting through the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, declared in the 4th century that only the 73 books they chose for the Bible, and no others either already written or yet to be written, are the Word of God.
 
Postmodern said:
Actually they are both wrong. There is simply not a shred of evidence to support the Exodus account of Jewish liberation from Egypt.
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This objection of yours is irrelevant to our discussion. We are not discussing whether or not Jews were liberated from Egypt.You may start a new thread.
 
Petergee said:
True. He fulfilled it. As He said, “not one iota” will be removed from the Law (the Torah). Impossible, because it was only written in the Middle Ages, centuries after His resurrection and ascension. Though you are correct that it is not the Word of God. So you could say He invalidated it when the Pope and bishops, authorised by Christ and acting through the inspiration of God the Holy Spirit, declared in the 4th century that only the 73 books they chose for the Bible, and no others either already written or yet to be written, are the Word of God.
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I mean the Talmud enforced during Jesus, the deciples, and Paul’s time.
 
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