The Response to Catholic vs Christian

[tskrobacz]

This doesn’t make any sense and Catholics aren’t likely to buy into this modern fallacy. Your comments present a false dichotomy. Religion is a relationship with God. That’s what it means. Jesus IS his Church.

Religion is any system of beliefs that guides us to develop a relationship with God. It itself is not a relationship with God.

“The church is precisely the state of communion of the whole world” - St. Augustine … Having a relationship with Church or Religion is not co-equivalent with having a relationship with God. We are to first Love God (not Catholic, the Pope, Church or Christian) with all our heart, soul and mind…only then can we really know how to Love our neighbor as ourself.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Religion is any system of beliefs that guides us to develop a relationship with God. It itself is not a relationship with God.

“The church is precisely the state of communion of the whole world” - St. Augustine … Having a relationship with Church or Religion is not co-equivalent with having a relationship with God. We are to first Love God (not Catholic, the Pope, Church or Christian) with all our heart, soul and mind…only then can we really know how to Love our neighbor as ourself.

The word religion comes from the Latin religare which means relationship. Or if you prefer, it means to bind oneself to…as in the relationship we have to God. We are all members of the body of Christ which is how we become bound to God and that is also our relationship with Him. Becoming a member of His Body is how we learn to love because it allows us to love others as much as we love ourselves without the worry of loving ourselves more. After all, no body loves part of itself more than another part or it destroys itself – each part subordinates itself to the whole and it is fulfilled precisely through such subordination. If the brain loves the heart more than the lungs, we have a problem!

Loving God is loving His Church because Jesus, who is God, is His Church. Catholic just means universal. ALL are welcome and ALL are members of His body, which is the universal Church, even if many decline to associate themselves properly with this universal label. Don’t be afraid of words. Concepts don’t exist very well on the streets…there’s nothing wrong with giving it a name especially considering such name encompasses ALL.

The label helps us find the universal Church that Christ established which provides the Heavenly Liturgy and the Body and Blood of Christ which nourishes us all! His Body and Blood is the supreme way of connecting us to Him which is our relationship with Him! He Loves us this way and in this way, we come to know Love because God is Love!

 

[tskrobacz]

The word religion comes from the Latin religare which means relationship. Or if you prefer, it means to bind oneself to…as in the relationship we have to God. We are all members of the body of Christ which is how we become bound to God and that is also our relationship with Him. Becoming a member of His Body is how we learn to love because it allows us to love others as much as we love ourselves without the worry of loving ourselves more. After all, no body loves part of itself more than another part or it destroys itself – each part subordinates itself to the whole and it is fulfilled precisely through such subordination. If the brain loves the heart more than the lungs, we have a problem!

Agreed, however “becoming a member of His Body” does not mean membership in the institutional church or any organized religion - those are simple the container, they are not the contents. It means participating in the world from a position of love, compassion, forgiveness, etc.

Loving God is loving His Church because Jesus, who is God, is His Church. Catholic just means universal. ALL are welcome and ALL are members of His body, which is the universal Church, even if many decline to associate themselves properly with this universal label. Don’t be afraid of words. Concepts don’t exist very well on the streets…there’s nothing wrong with giving it a name especially considering such name encompasses ALL.

In Jesus we have revealed the eternal Christ who has existed from the very moment that God manifested or bodied forth the physical universe. So yes, ALL of creation is a member of the Christ.

The label helps us find the universal Church that Christ established which provides the Heavenly Liturgy and the Body and Blood of Christ which nourishes us all! His Body and Blood is the supreme way of connecting us to Him which is our relationship with Him! He Loves us this way and in this way, we come to know Love because God is Love!

Organized religions give us a framework for believing and are extremely important in our faith formation (regardless of which religion you are born into). As we move into more mature spirituality we must take care that we don’t mistake the container for the contents. A bias towards “membership” in this church or that suggests a “certainty” that is in fact the opposite of faith. Faith, in the symbol of the cross, is our ability to hold our knowing with “not knowing” (eg. the paradoxes of life) and allowing the spirit to guide us in the freedom that that holding implies to move beyond mere methods, rituals or tribal membership.

 

[KellyPalmer]

Agreed, however “becoming a member of His Body” does not mean membership in the institutional church or any organized religion - those are simple the container, they are not the contents.

Actually, it does mean membership in his church. Jesus IS his Church. This is stated multiple times in the Bible.

It means participating in the world from a position of love, compassion, forgiveness, etc.

Where did you get this idea from and upon whom’s authority?

In Jesus we have revealed the eternal Christ who has existed from the very moment that God manifested or bodied forth the physical universe. So yes, ALL of creation is a member of the Christ.

Yes, that’s why Christ’s Church is universal, which means applicable to ALL.

Organized religions give us a framework for believing and are extremely important in our faith formation (regardless of which religion you are born into). As we move into more mature spirituality we must take care that we don’t mistake the container for the contents

.

This is incorrect. Christ doesn’t just have a church (container for contents). Christ IS his Church. The more spiritually mature we become, the more we are aware of this reality.

A bias towards “membership” in this church or that suggests a “certainty” that is in fact the opposite of faith.

A membership in Christ’s Church suggests a certainty in Christ, his promises and the ability to actively participate in the Heavenly Liturgy.

Faith, in the symbol of the cross, is our ability to hold our knowing with “not knowing” (eg. the paradoxes of life) and allowing the spirit to guide us in the freedom that that holding implies to move beyond mere methods, rituals or tribal membership.

It’s both/and. Faith must not be pitted against reason and certainly not against membership in the Church Christ established! The Spirit guides us in and through the Church. Remember, Christ established it this way – “…on this rock I will build my Church”. We receive the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments of Holy Mother Church! True freedom comes through abandoning self to the will of the Father. It is His will that we be united as one in the Church He established.

 

[tskrobacz]

Actually, it does mean membership in his church. Jesus IS his Church. This is stated multiple times in the Bible.

Reference? Where is this stated in the Bible or the CCC?

Where did you get this idea from and upon whom’s authority?

Matthew’s Gospel for one…Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Yes, that’s why Christ’s Church is universal, which means applicable to ALL.

Christ’s Church or better Christ IS ALL…Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1)

This is incorrect. Christ doesn’t just have a church (container for contents). Christ IS his Church. The more spiritually mature we become, the more we are aware of this reality.

Here I think we agree…Christ IS the Church, however that does not mean the Catholic Church (or any other church for that matter) is singularly Christ. Christ is not bounded by our human definitions of Church.

A membership in Christ’s Church suggests a certainty in Christ, his promises and the ability to actively participate in the Heavenly Liturgy.

Membership does not equate to anything other than membership. Many religious people go to mass every Sunday, pray and live wretched lives.

It’s both/and. Faith must not be pitted against reason and certainly not against membership in the Church Christ established! The Spirit guides us in and through the Church. Remember, Christ established it this way – “…on this rock I will build my Church”. We receive the Holy Spirit through the Sacraments of Holy Mother Church! True freedom comes through abandoning self to the will of the Father. It is His will that we be united as one in the Church He established.

God’s will for us is himself (Love). The Church is is wonderful gift in as much as she models the way of love, humility, etc. Being a member is not equivalent with abandoning self will to the will of the Father…people in 12-step programs are exceptionally good at abandoning self will to a Higher Power…would you consider them “Church”?

 

[KellyPalmer]

Reference? Where is this stated in the Bible or the CCC?

The first that comes to mind is Ephesians 1:22-23:

“And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”

Matthew’s Gospel for one…Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[d] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

That is a command however I’m not following how this means becoming a member of his body. You stated that this is what becoming a member of his body means. Christ said his body is the Church.

Christ’s Church or better Christ IS ALL…Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made (John 1)

Better? You are deciding which of Christ’s words are better? What authority allows you to do this?

Here I think we agree…Christ IS the Church, however that does not mean the Catholic Church (or any other church for that matter) is singularly Christ. Christ is not bounded by our human definitions of Church.

If you agree that Christ’s body is His Church, then why did you earlier ask me for proof? Again, Catholic just means universal. Christ’s body is not more than one separate Church with contradictions, correct? Christ is not bound by our human definitions, we are bound by his divine establishment in His Holy Church which is His Body!

Membership does not equate to anything other than membership.

Maybe we need to define our terms. Being a member of Christ’s body does not equate to anything other than being a member of Christ’s body. You are attempting to suggest this is a bad thing but that’s actually a good thing.

Many religious people go to mass every Sunday, pray and live wretched lives.

Yes, what is your point here?

God’s will for us is himself (Love).

I do not disagree.

The Church is is wonderful gift in as much as she models the way of love, humility, etc.

Jesus Christ is his Church. Why do you think that He is a stumbling block to himself and his will?

Being a member is not equivalent with abandoning self will to the will of the Father

I didn’t claim that it was the equivalent. I said that it is God’s will that we be united in His Holy Church which is Christ himself and His Body.

…people in 12-step programs are exceptionally good at abandoning self will to a Higher Power…would you consider them “Church”?

I’m not sure that this is entirely accurate but for the sake of discussion, let’s assume that it is. The only higher power that anyone can abandon themselves to is God. “Church” exists everywhere. The Church acknowledges that there is truth all around which is why it assimilates that which is good. Non-believers love to point this out as if it were bad. However the fullness of truth exists only in Holy Mother Church. Anyone who comes to God, comes to it through the Church which is Christ’s body even if they do not realize it. This would include people who come to God through a 12-step program.

 

[tskrobacz]

The first that comes to mind is Ephesians 1:22-23:

“And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”

Christ is not Jesus’ last name. Jesus revealed the Christ…the fusion of spirit and matter that has existed from all eternity - you said Jesus is the Church…I think you meant Christ is the Church. Your reference to Ephesians asserts the same.

That is a command however I’m not following how this means becoming a member of his body. You stated that this is what becoming a member of his body means. Christ said his body is the Church.

If you love God and your neighbor as Jesus instructed, clearly you are a member of his body.

Better? You are deciding which of Christ’s words are better? What authority allows you to do this?

You said Christ’s church is “applicable” to all…I was simply expanding that to Christ IS ALL (and all is IN Christ as Paul writes).

If you agree that Christ’s body is His Church, then why did you earlier ask me for proof? Again, Catholic just means universal. Christ’s body is not more than one separate Church with contradictions, correct? Christ is not bound by our human definitions, we are bound by his divine establishment in His Holy Church which is His Body!

Here we disagree…Christ body in God’s perfection holds all contradictions, all peoples, all imperfections and yes all faith traditions. In order to be perfect it must include all that is not perfect. I believe the Catholic Mystics (and mystics of other faith traditions) and Jesus understood this universality in broader terms than those that insist on the “Catholic” container. There’s nothing wrong with holding strong to your faith tradition as long as we don’t use it in ways that create devision as the topic of this forum suggests…there is no “Christian vs Catholic vs Muslim”…we are all one.

Maybe we need to define our terms. Being a member of Christ’s body does not equate to anything other than being a member of Christ’s body. You are attempting to suggest this is a bad thing but that’s actually a good thing.

It is not a bad thing…in fact it is the only thing and not something we can choose…it is our reality.

Yes, what is your point here?

My point is don’t confuse religion or church membership with true spirituality.

Jesus Christ is his Church. Why do you think that He is a stumbling block to himself and his will?

Christ, the “Word”, is the church. Jesus revealed this great truth. See John’s Gospel.

I didn’t claim that it was the equivalent. I said that it is God’s will that we be united in His Holy Church which is Christ himself and His Body.

It is God’s will that we awaken from our illusion of being separate from Christ or each other and in that awaking come to see the divinity in all that is. Perhaps this is just semantics…We are already united…it is we that fail to see that. We don’t need to unite…we need to awaken to that which is and has always been true.

I’m not sure that this is entirely accurate but for the sake of discussion, let’s assume that it is. The only higher power that anyone can abandon themselves to is God. “Church” exists everywhere. The Church acknowledges that there is truth all around which is why it assimilates that which is good. Non-believers love to point this out as if it were bad. However the fullness of truth exists only in Holy Mother Church. Anyone who comes to God, comes to it through the Church which is Christ’s body even if they do not realize it. This would include people who come to God through a 12-step program.

I love the Catholic Church and all that she does to hold the rock of our faith tradition. She is a beacon of light that this world needs AND we all fall short of the glory of God. To label oneself Catholic, Christian, Buddhist or Jewish, etc is something the ego does to create a sense of identity…this becomes a Log in our eye when we assert that our path to knowing and loving God is THE path - even if we ourself believe that to be true (why would we not if we hold to our belief system!) . Our knowing always fall short of the full truth. God is greater than the limitations of this kind of thinking. There are as many paths to God as their are people.

 

[EasterJoy]

…To label oneself Catholic, Christian, Buddhist or Jewish, etc is something the ego does to create a sense of identity…this becomes a Log in our eye when we assert that our path to knowing and loving God is THE path - even if we ourself believe that to be true (why would we not if we hold to our belief system!) . Our knowing always fall short of the full truth. God is greater than the limitations of this kind of thinking. There are as many paths to God as their are people.

To acknowledge membership in some group or other isn’t an automatic ego trip. If you stop and think about it, that is silly–how else do we explain that the days we fast or feast as a community are different than the days our friends in other religions fast or feast, if we hold ourselves above the concept of identifying with any group?–and I don’t know who has fed you that idea. Labels have a practical purpose, and to be blunt haven’t each of us also known someone whose refusal to submit to common and practical labels or official membership in a group has been their own ticket onto a self-important ego trip. Think about it…you know this is true!

This is what is dangerous: The temptation to say: O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity… (Luke 18:11) And yes, it is no less wrong-headed when we say “we” instead of “I”. The pitfall is this: that lie can be fed to us whether or not we believe some descriptive language or other is useful with regards to human beings or whether or not we belong to some group or other, because of course we can puff ourselves up about that, too!

I have seen a pitfall even in the “our knowing always falls short of the truth” truism, which can lead to a certain convenient agnosticism about holding ourselves to a code of right and wrong. The road lies in using our discerned call and the codes written on our hearts for ourselves. The ditch on one side is to spend our times judging others, particularly as inferior to ourselves; the ditch on the other side is to fail to have a concrete way by which we continually examine ourselves and our imitation of the portion of the truth we have been given to see. Those are both ditches. That is why Our Lord warned us that the narrow way is not easy to find!

 

[manualman]

Okay, so what is an appropriate response when someone says I am not Catholic anymore I am a Christian?

“Resistance is futile. You cannot be unassimilated.”

Especially effective if you think they might be a Star Trek fan.

 

[Luvz2travel]

I actually had a lady in my christian adventure group tell me catholics are not christian. I thought well I know what kind of christian you are then…didn’t say it but I’ve heard it before mostly from Southern Baptists but I didn’t say anything just ignored it as the ignorant uneducated comment it was. The organizer who was raised catholic but is no longer practices she’s nondenomination now said she was raised catholic and had no problems with the church just moved to another type of church did say we accept all christians in our group and that kind of shut the lady up.

 

[tskrobacz]

To acknowledge membership in some group or other isn’t an automatic ego trip. If you stop and think about it, that is silly–how else do we explain that the days we fast or feast as a community are different than the days our friends in other religions fast or feast, if we hold ourselves above the concept of identifying with any group?–and I don’t know who has fed you that idea. Labels have a practical purpose, and to be blunt haven’t each of us also known someone whose refusal to submit to common and practical labels or official membership in a group has been their own ticket onto a self-important ego trip. Think about it…you know this is true!

This is what is dangerous: The temptation to say: O God, I thank you that I am not like the rest of humanity… (Luke 18:11) And yes, it is no less wrong-headed when we say “we” instead of “I”. The pitfall is this: that lie can be fed to us whether or not we believe some descriptive language or other is useful with regards to human beings or whether or not we belong to some group or other, because of course we can puff ourselves up about that, too!

I have seen a pitfall even in the “our knowing always falls short of the truth” truism, which can lead to a certain convenient agnosticism about holding ourselves to a code of right and wrong. The road lies in using our discerned call and the codes written on our hearts for ourselves. The ditch on one side is to spend our times judging others, particularly as inferior to ourselves; the ditch on the other side is to fail to have a concrete way by which we continually examine ourselves and our imitation of the portion of the truth we have been given to see. Those are both ditches. That is why Our Lord warned us that the narrow way is not easy to find!

I agree…The narrow way that is inclusive, not exclusive, is not easy to find. It requires us to transcend and include the wisdom teachings of our faith tradition.

 

[John_Martin]

Religion is any system of beliefs that guides us to develop a relationship with God. It itself is not a relationship with God.

“The church is precisely the state of communion of the whole world” - St. Augustine … Having a relationship with Church or Religion is not co-equivalent with having a relationship with God. We are to first Love God (not Catholic, the Pope, Church or Christian) with all our heart, soul and mind…only then can we really know how to Love our neighbor as ourself.

If Augustine said that, his use of the word “church” specified the Catholic Church, which then would indicate that the condition of the unity of the whole world is the presence of the Catholic Church.
As Catholics, an alien People in the world joined together through being baptized into oneness with the Church and with our King and with his Pope, we were given grace when we were baptized, the infusion of supernatural virtues that enable us to fulfill the commandments to love God and our neighbor. Religion is a part of one of these virtues that we have as Catholics, a part of the Virtue of Justice. If I may quote from a Doctor of the Church in which we confess our belief:
“a virtue is that which makes its possessor good, and his act good likewise,” wherefore we must needs say that every good act belongs to a virtue. Now it is evident that to render anyone his due has the aspect of good, since by rendering a person his due, one becomes suitably proportioned to him, through being ordered to him in a becoming manner. But order comes under the aspect of good, just as mode and species, according to Augustine (De Nat. Boni iii). Since then it belongs to religion to pay due honor to someone, namely, to God, it is evident that religion is a virtue. (St. Thomas Aquinas).
So, even though it sounds “alien” to you, to us religion is not what leads us to develop a relationship with God. We have that in our baptism wherein we became his sons and daughters. But religion for us is a Habit (a Virtue) we have and which we make use of in doing acts that pay due honor to our God and Father, and to His Son, our King, and to their Spirit, our Comforter as we act as “Soul” to the world, giving the world its true spiritual animation, as the soul animates the body. For us who are Catholic, we are relating to God in Religion, paying Him honor due him (proportionately as we are able as humans) and receiving his actions to us (the Sacraments in which he feeds us, literally, physically, and then mystically he is feeding us spiritually).

John Martin

 

[John_Martin]

Agreed, however “becoming a member of His Body” does not mean membership in the institutional church or any organized religion - those are simple the container, they are not the contents. It means participating in the world from a position of love, compassion, forgiveness, etc…

Your understanding, while sentimental sounding, ignores and actually is in defiance of Church dogma. As Catholics, we declare “I believe in the holy catholic church” with the same real / substantial intent as when we say “I believe in God the Father…” “I believe in Jesus Christ” “I believe in the Holy Spirit”.
A human person is not just his soul, of which his body is simply an accidental container, but in heaven at the resurrection, his body will be raised to life so that in the resurrection “soul will again eternally animate body” for the whole human being living in the presence of God.

The physical Catholic Church, with Popes, Bishops, Pastors, Laity is such a physical body doing physical things in the world, each member doing physical things as directed by the “soul” of this body, the Holy Spirit from Christ and the Father. The whole (the physical Catholic Church with the Holy Spirit) is a living, “animated” body, physically acting as a unified body.

A human body is disparate elements that do not function independently, but as a single whole, physically apparent in the world as a specific body rather than a hand on **tskrobacz **saying, “I am EasterJoy’s hand”, and a foot on John Martin saying, “I am **manualman’s **foot”. A body is “one” not “several” and not a set of containers animated by multiple contrary beliefs and wills.

" love, compassion, forgiveness" - The Catholic Church is a “miracle working body” that not only appends people to itself in Baptism (not automatic citizenship by birth, but an operation where the person is grafted into the body as a new member), the Church not only appends members, but also then literally gives them the ability to act in love, compassion, and forgiveness. Everywhere in the whole world you have all people calling for love, compassion, and forgiveness, but only the physical and literal Church gives the Holy Spirit to the members of its body, with its graces, infusing (literally) the Virtues in that member.

In Jesus we have revealed the eternal Christ who has existed from the very moment that God manifested or bodied forth the physical universe. So yes, ALL of creation is a member of the Christ…

Nice and sentimental speculation, but wishful thinking on your part with no legitimate guarantee of your participation, since you personally cannot experience the beginning of the universe to hear that it includes you.

The Son did not “begin” at the moment of creation; the Son was born of the Father “before” eternity, “before” creation, “in eternity”. But “Christ” is a temporally begun title, which the Son assumed in his incarnation as the “King” of a people which is the Church, whose members are citizens of his Kingdom, his Church, a real physical entity in the world. Do you wish to be a member of his Body? Then ask the Church if you might participate; there is water around, ask the Church to Baptize you and grant your the Holy Spirit and Teach you all that Jesus commanded. The Catholic literally hears and feels his inclusion in the words and waters of Baptism by the official representative of the Body baptizing him, and in Confirmation when he is sealed in the Holy Spirit by the Bishop of the physical Church.

Organized religions give us a framework for believing and are extremely important in our faith formation (regardless of which religion you are born into). As we move into more mature spirituality we must take care that we don’t mistake the container for the contents. A bias towards “membership” in this church or that suggests a “certainty” that is in fact the opposite of faith. Faith, in the symbol of the cross, is our ability to hold our knowing with “not knowing” (eg. the paradoxes of life) and allowing the spirit to guide us in the freedom that that holding implies to move beyond mere methods, rituals or tribal membership.

This was sufficiently answered above, but more can always be said. No one is born into the Catholic Church but is made a member by a different member of that body. Confessing “I believe in the holy catholic church” is an “Act of Faith”, meaning an act of the Will concerning a belief of the intellect. It is the “assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen”.
To you the Catholic Church looks like one container of many containers, thus “you do not see”, but we call it our body, by faith, and act out as members of our body which is Christ, and suffer nails of crucifixion as you tell us we are not a single body but would split us into multiple un-unified atoms, just as a body decomposing is a bunch of elements not functioning as a unit with a soul animating its unity.

John Martin

 

[habagat123]

I think this is where Catholics and Christians differ, specially on salvation. For Catholics, salvation can be achieved through these:

• being a member of the Catholic Church
• sacraments
• good works
• obedience to the Pope
• Rosary or Marian devotion
• Scapular
• Devotion to Saints

While Christians believe that salvation is through one name only:

• Jesus

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

 

[KellyPalmer]

I think this is where Catholics and Christians differ, specially on salvation. For Catholics, salvation can be achieved through these:

• being a member of the Catholic Church
• sacraments
• good works
• obedience to the Pope
• Rosary or Marian devotion
• Scapular
• Devotion to Saints

While Christians believe that salvation is through one name only:

• Jesus

Acts 4:12
Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

Hi there, it sounds like you do not know much about the Catholic faith. I would recommend picking up the Catechism of the Catholic Church right away so that you can correct your misconceptions. Another good (easy) one is Catholicism for Dummies.

Catholics are Christians. We are the universal Christians and we make up the largest number of Christians in the world. I think you meant to talk about the differences between Catholics and Protestants. Protestants are a modern man-made religion with the foundation of protesting the Church that Jesus Christ created and intended for all, providing constant guidance from the Holy Spirit so that her teachings are never in error.

Catholics believe that salvation can only come through Jesus. So that’s some good news for you .

 

[habagat123]

I went to a catholic school and was raised a catholic for 40 years in a dominant catholic country, the Philippines…i know what i am talking about and yes i was radical catholic until i have found Jesus.

Being a Christian is…simply a follower of Christ and trusting in Him as Lord and only saviour. Catholics believe in a lot of things in order to be saved…even trusting mother mary for salvation(we have been taught that here and if you dont believe, i suggest you come here to the Philippines and you will see what i mean). We have catholic churches that were made for mary. a month long celebration for mary(flores de mayo), you would see people lining up and kissing the statues, mary and saints…i included. obeying the pope as necessary for salvation…we were taught of this as well.we were told to wear the scapular as well since our priest say that mother mary can save us from the fires of hell. Many more i have see which differentiate Catholics from Christians, the true followers of Christ.

Do not be proud of your catholic number being many, remember Matthew 7:13-14.

 

[John_Martin]

I think this is where Catholics and Christians differ, specially on salvation. For Catholics, salvation can be achieved through these:

• being a member of the Catholic Church
• sacraments
• good works
• obedience to the Pope
• Rosary or Marian devotion
• Scapular
• Devotion to Saints
  While Christians believe that salvation is through one name only:
• Jesus
  Acts 4:12
  Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."

Well, let’s take a look at this, for those of you who with Protestantism (protesting the Catholic Church, knowing “a better way” than was delivered by the Catholic Church).

• being a member of the Catholic Church - that ties into the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Reconciliation - When people were added to the Catholic Church in the Book of Acts, the term used was, they were “being saved”. Being Baptized by a member of the Church is being made a citizen of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom established by, or originating from, God. Being saved is being a member or citizen of the Kingdom of God. We are baptized in Jesus’ name, the Church calling upon the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit to take this repentant person and make them one of the Church, grant them salvation, grant them the Holy Spirit. So, it is by the Name of Jesus that we Catholics know we are saved and granted participation in the Life of Jesus, our Dear Brother, our King, our Lord, our God.
• Sacraments - We spoke of that above, but also in the Sacrament of Confirmation, the Bishop seals us in the Holy Spirit, and we are given the fullness of the Spirit, and we are sent to be his faithful witnesses of Jesus. And thus, the “Chistian Life” is a life of death, a life of doing the works and speaking the words of Jesus. If I am not doing the things related to my Confirmation, them I am defying the whole point of being Jesus’ disciple and have no life in me. Confession - Like Peter, the one set apart by Jesus (remember, Jesus only, therefore we are duty bound to accept Peter because Jesus appointed him), even Peter faltered in his fears, yet Jesus told him, when you return, when you are “converted”, when you “repent”, then strengthen your brethren, the ones you are Pope to. The other sacraments, for the most part have to do with commissioning to various stations in life, etc. But it is all in that one Name, the sound of which makes our hearts glad, and makes our souls know they are saved, as we eat His Body, drink His Blood as he commanded, and repent of our defiances, mistakes, and protests. (Peter was also a protestant for a short moment, when Jesus told them they were going to Jerusalem where Jesus would be crucified, and Peter told him that this cannot happen, that there was some better way of Jesus being the Messiah. But Jesus told his Pope to “Get back behind me as my follower, for you are Satan if you try to stand in front of me to change my direction. If anyone desires to be my follower behind me, he must, like me, take up his cross”… So, the Pope became obedient to his Messiah, his King, and followed rather than leading to a “better way”.
• Good Works (or Merit, is a better term) - Yes, we, as Catholics, take it fully literally that we must be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We believe that we must be poor in spirit in order to have citizenship in the Kingdom, we must be repentant of our own power to achieve life. So we consider confession as a good work, which Jesus desires us to do, and reconciles us to Himself when we abandon our sins and protests and seek to walk with Him faithfully. And we consider it a good work when we mourn because of the goods of this life that we have abandoned for Jesus, and he comes to comfort us as our “reward”, changing our mourning into joy. All the rest of the beatitudes are good works that we do in our life with our Lord Jesus, and he fulfills the second half of each beatitude as we fulfill the first half. Do you know the neat thing: When we were baptized, and were given the Holy Spirit with his graces, we were given the Virtues with which we are able to do the first lines of the beatitudes, and able to trust Jesus only will fulfill the second half.

That is enough for now; every other can be answered with Jesus Only as our Life. Protestants seek to deceive you by sound bites like “good works save catholics” but do not give you the full description of what Catholics know.

John Martin

 

[Bible_is_truth]

As A Non Conformist ,I believe in God’s Word. Why Jesus came and Died, most Important the Forgiveness of Sins through Jesus Death and Resurrection .There Is NO mediator between God and Man. There are Faiths that somehow believe one has to go through Mary. This is not what Jesus said, even Mary recognised Jesus as her Saviour. I study roots of various Faiths to find many are Man made. Jesus words are simple Man Complicates them to his advantage. Many Faiths say you must do this or that Jesus said different. Many do not believe in Death there is a vast canyon which non shall cross ,Heaven and Hell. Alive one has the chance to repent, this means not to go back to the old self and do the Wilful Sins. If one keeps doing the wilful sins then Christ’s Death was Meaningless. Many do not understand who Melchizedek is. The one Priest who Lives forever. I have wonderful Catholic neighbours, yet they do not understand God’s word. I asked if they read God’s word, they have started to read the Bible more and through prayer will have their eyes opened ,this amazed me as Reading God’s word is our Food for life. Man cannot live by bread alone. I could go on ,I am shocked though ,for many are lost on understanding what is required by Jesus, they live by man’s way. Have they not yet learnt from Moses time? | believe and Know where my eternity is, many do not have Faith in God’s word sadly and maybe lost. There is no turning back after Death .God is Very Clear on this ,one is lost unless before Death they know who Jesus is and why he came. Lastly Test the Spirits as God’s word says ,do not believe them unless you do. This ,more so for Apparitions or visits. The Devil is Brilliantly good at imitating others. I would not accept any visit until tested. God’s words not mine.
Just as he did with the Koran if you do your research.

 

[fallow_spirit]

Well, let’s take a look at this, for those of you who with Protestantism (protesting the Catholic Church, knowing “a better way” than was delivered by the Catholic Church).

• being a member of the Catholic Church - that ties into the Sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation, Reconciliation - When people were added to the Catholic Church in the Book of Acts, the term used was, they were “being saved”. Being Baptized by a member of the Church is being made a citizen of the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom established by, or originating from, God. Being saved is being a member or citizen of the Kingdom of God. We are baptized in Jesus’ name, the Church calling upon the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit to take this repentant person and make them one of the Church, grant them salvation, grant them the Holy Spirit. So, it is by the Name of Jesus that we Catholics know we are saved and granted participation in the Life of Jesus, our Dear Brother, our King, our Lord, our God.
• Sacraments - We spoke of that above, but also in the Sacrament of Confirmation, the Bishop seals us in the Holy Spirit, and we are given the fullness of the Spirit, and we are sent to be his faithful witnesses of Jesus. And thus, the “Chistian Life” is a life of death, a life of doing the works and speaking the words of Jesus. If I am not doing the things related to my Confirmation, them I am defying the whole point of being Jesus’ disciple and have no life in me. Confession - Like Peter, the one set apart by Jesus (remember, Jesus only, therefore we are duty bound to accept Peter because Jesus appointed him), even Peter faltered in his fears, yet Jesus told him, when you return, when you are “converted”, when you “repent”, then strengthen your brethren, the ones you are Pope to. The other sacraments, for the most part have to do with commissioning to various stations in life, etc. But it is all in that one Name, the sound of which makes our hearts glad, and makes our souls know they are saved, as we eat His Body, drink His Blood as he commanded, and repent of our defiances, mistakes, and protests. (Peter was also a protestant for a short moment, when Jesus told them they were going to Jerusalem where Jesus would be crucified, and Peter told him that this cannot happen, that there was some better way of Jesus being the Messiah. But Jesus told his Pope to “Get back behind me as my follower, for you are Satan if you try to stand in front of me to change my direction. If anyone desires to be my follower behind me, he must, like me, take up his cross”… So, the Pope became obedient to his Messiah, his King, and followed rather than leading to a “better way”.
• Good Works (or Merit, is a better term) - Yes, we, as Catholics, take it fully literally that we must be perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. We believe that we must be poor in spirit in order to have citizenship in the Kingdom, we must be repentant of our own power to achieve life. So we consider confession as a good work, which Jesus desires us to do, and reconciles us to Himself when we abandon our sins and protests and seek to walk with Him faithfully. And we consider it a good work when we mourn because of the goods of this life that we have abandoned for Jesus, and he comes to comfort us as our “reward”, changing our mourning into joy. All the rest of the beatitudes are good works that we do in our life with our Lord Jesus, and he fulfills the second half of each beatitude as we fulfill the first half. Do you know the neat thing: When we were baptized, and were given the Holy Spirit with his graces, we were given the Virtues with which we are able to do the first lines of the beatitudes, and able to trust Jesus only will fulfill the second half.

That is enough for now; every other can be answered with Jesus Only as our Life. Protestants seek to deceive you by sound bites like “good works save catholics” but do not give you the full description of what Catholics know.

John Martin

 

[KellyPalmer]

I went to a catholic school and was raised a catholic for 40 years in a dominant catholic country, the Philippines…i know what i am talking about and yes i was radical catholic until i have found Jesus.

Thank you for sharing more of your story with us! The thing about Catholicism is that her teachings are not ambiguous. We have a clear and definitive way of knowing what the Catholic Church teaches. Simply provide references from the Catechism that show that Catholics believe salvation comes through any other name than Jesus. If you are unable to do that, then we can put that matter to rest. It would be impossible to be a radical Catholic and then find Jesus only once that ceased. Catholics receive Jesus – body, blood, soul and divinity, in the Eucharist at every Mass. There are plenty of Catholics who don’t realize this so I would not fault you for the same.

Being a Christian is…simply a follower of Christ and trusting in Him as Lord and only saviour.

I would argue that trusting in Christ as Lord and Savior means a radical transformation of ones life. It kind of sounds like you adhere to the modern idea of rugged individualism (Jesus and me only). But you see, we are one body and salvation comes through the body of Christ.

Catholics believe in a lot of things in order to be saved

Catholics just don’t take one thing out of context but rather look at the whole picture. You can’t separate faith from works. The Bible tells us this (James 2:14-26). Also, you must recognize that the Bible tells us that to love God is to keep his commands and that it’s not just believing but doing the will of the Father (John 14:21, Matthew 7:21).

…even trusting mother mary for salvation(we have been taught that here and if you dont believe, i suggest you come here to the Philippines and you will see what i mean).

No need for me to come to the Philippines b/c I can just open my Catechism to know what is taught by the Catholic Church. You can read it word for word, right here - You can read, word for word, what the Catholic Church teaches about salvation - vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm. Incidentally, you will see there is not a word about Mary in that section!

We have catholic churches that were made for mary. a month long celebration for mary(flores de mayo), you would see people lining up and kissing the statues, mary and saints…i included. obeying the pope as necessary for salvation…we were taught of this as well.we were told to wear the scapular as well since our priest say that mother mary can save us from the fires of hell.

Why is it that you are wanting to pit Mary against Jesus and His Church? Mary’s role is to bring us closer to Jesus. Things described above sound wonderful!!! The Blessed Mother has brought millions and millions of people to Jesus! The Fatima prayer that we pray with the Rosary is, “O my Jesus, forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, and lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy.” It is Jesus that saves us from the fires of hell however we ask for Mary’s intercession. What could be bad about that? Remember that The Bible says Mary is blessed (Luke 1:45) and all generations shall call her blessed (Luke 1:48). I have noticed a common trend that Protestants do not call Mary blessed but Catholics do. One keeps the word of God, the other doesn’t. Yes, Jesus is Mary’s savior too! Mary is like the moon that reflects the Sun (God). She has completely surrendered her will to the will of the Father. She magnifies the Lord!! Why would you want to go against that rather than to be a part of it through Christ’s body? Read Mary’s Magnificat - Luke 1:46-55.

Many more i have see which differentiate Catholics from Christians, the true followers of Christ.

Like what? Keep in mind that the Catholic Church gave you the Bible. Why do you believe in the Bible’s authority? Why do you trust the Catholic Church to tell you what is the Word of God but nothing beyond that? What gives you the authority to decide who are the true Christians and who are not?

Do not be proud of your catholic number being many, remember Matthew 7:13-14.

Did you mean to put that Scripture there? That’s about the narrow gate. What you are advocating for is a wide gate and accusing the Catholic Church of having a narrow gate and then you give this scripture that backs Catholics. Yes, Catholics make up the largest number of Christians but we also make up a very small percentage of the world’s population. What we preach as Catholics is that it’s not as simple (wide gate) as merely saying you believe in Jesus as Savior (remember you said, “Being a Christian is…simply a follower of Christ and trusting in Him as Lord and only saviour”). We preach a narrow gate which means radical change of one’s life and abandoning our will to the will of the Father.