The Response to Catholic vs Christian

[Della]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."

Would this mean Muslims who does not recognize Jesus Christ as God can and will be saved? Can you please defend this CC841 with scripture please?

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Firstly, the Catechism is only saying here that Muslims worship the same God as Christians. So, you are reading more into the statement than it makes. However, the Church does teach that non-Christians (Catholics are Christians) may be saved. How is this possible? Because Christ’s redemptive death made salvation possible for all people everywhere. You are confusing redemption with salvation. They are two different things. However, whoever is saved is saved in Christ because only through Christ’s redemptive life, death and resurrection can we be saved.

Doesn’t CC841 contradicts The Scriptures?

***But the pope is the visible leader of the Church Christ established who is responsible for leading the flock and will always be subject to obedience to Christ and His teachings.

---

How so? Christ appointed Peter to be his vicar when he conferred on him the keys of the kingdom.

[16] Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
[17] And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
[18] And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.
[19] I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Some of the Pope did terrible things, am i right? Then how can a leader of the true Church of Christ who have done horrible things lead them to His teachings?

How can Jimmy Swaggert go on teaching and preaching? Or any other Protestant pastor who has ever seriously sinned? The pope’s authority does not lie in his personal holiness but in the authority of his office. For example, even though President Clinton scandalized the nation with his sexual sins, he was still president. The charism of infallibility is a gift of the Holy Spirit conferred on the office of pope. It says nothing whatsoever about the worthiness of the person in office, although most popes have been very holy men.

 

[KelIyPalmer]

John, I’m sorry if I was loud(but didn’t The Bible say to rebuke?) but my post initially was to differentiate a Catholic and a Christian in our setting here.

Now I have seen and understood that if I hold on to the Bible only as my guide to Christ and believe in faith that Jesus is the only way to salvation, then I am no longer a Catholic but a Christian. That if I believe in the Bible as the true Word of God and not the Catechism, I am no longer a Catholic but a Christian. And if I believe that Jesus is the head of the Church and not the Pope - then I am an anathema and no longer a Catholic but a Christian.

I was just showing how we were brought up here as Catholics and how I know Jesus now through The Bible. Most of the Catholics that are now Christians here were the people who read the Bible and have regular Bible study and most of the people who are still Catholics here are people who don’t read the Bible and just trust to whatever the parish priest say. The Bible has just opened our eyes to the truth.

I am in no way trying to let other Catholics lose their faith as I know only a few will find the narrow gate.

I was dead but now alive through Jesus Christ!

Please show in scripture where The Bible says to hold on to the Bible as your only guide to Christ.

Catholics also believe that The Bible is the true Word of God and not the Catechism. Although I should also point out that The Word of God is not limited to The Bible. According to the Bible, Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14) and he can’t be reduced to the pages in a book. That is according to Scripture (John 21:25). What are you missing out on by reducing him in this way?

Catholics also believe that Jesus is the head of the Church.

Faithful Catholics who do what their Priests say will have “read” their entire Bible in about 3 years simply by attending Mass. I don’t think you are qualified to make valid claims about who in your country reads their Bibles. Bible studies are routinely offered at Catholic Churches around the globe. If they were Catholics who were following their Priests then they were routinely reading their Bible. The first half of Mass is the Liturgy of the Word. This is from God, shown in the book of Revelations. In the first 11 or 12 chapters of Revelations, all the action revolves around a scroll. In the greek, the word is “Biblian”, where we get the word Bible. This is the same for the Mass.

I think perhaps your posts do reveal quite a bit – that some Protestants tend to limit themselves to Jesus in the pages of the Bible while Catholics find Jesus in the Bible but also in his Church that he established including in the Eucharist which is the true body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus.

Here’s the problem – the Bible doesn’t support what you are saying. The Bible says that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). The Bible says that if someone won’t listen to the Church, treat him as a heathen (Matthew 18:15-17). The Bible never says to hold the Bible as your only guide to faith. In fact, the Bible says over and over again, that the Church is an authority of truth.

“Tell me where ______ is supported in scripture” is invalid because Scripture itself does not say that all of the answers are contained within itself. Scripture says the opposite. Scripture says there is so much more and it’s found in the church which is the pillar and foundation of truth. The Bible is actually a part of the Catholic Church!

 

[KelIyPalmer]

Here you go habagat123…

Direct quote from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

“Christ is the Head of this Body”

792 Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p2.htm

^This is why I suggest learning more about the Catholic Church. Read the Catechism or even the Catholicism for Dummies that I mentioned earlier. That way you will know what the Church truly teaches and you can stop spreading false info about Christ’s Church.

 

[KelIyPalmer]

1, Great! We agree on something!
2. Thankyou for that.
3. That is exactly why I became a non-denominational Christian. I am sooo tired of all the bickering and confusion and hatefulness between all of the different denominations, including Catholics, that I just want to study the Bible and do my best to be a good Christian follower.
4. Well, no it does not say in the Bible that it is our instruction book, but it is assumed by Christians to be the words of God and words to live by.
5. I would go to a non-denominational church and have the Eucharist blessed by the minister in the name of the Holy Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. I would receive it as I receive Christ, and again devote myself to Him with all my heart, soul, and mind.

Kelley, just because I don’t agree with some of the Catholic ways of doing things, it does not mean that I reject the Catholic Church entirely. I believe that without the Catholic Church, the Christian faith might have died. I honor the Church for giving us 2000 years of knowledge and understanding of God/Christ. I honor the Pope for his devotion to the Church. I respect people who are devout members of their churches and help the poor and the hungry. I give thanks that the Church is out there trying to save souls from everlasting damnation through the endless efforts of Satan himself.

I just watched a program of Billy Graham, an evangelist, who spoke to a crowd of people in a giant stadium. He spoke about God’s love, and how Jesus’ blood was poured out for the forgiveness of our sins and the promise of salvation. He invited the people to come down to the front to annouce their faith and receive the blessings from God, the Father. Hundreds came down to the front. It was amazing to see how many people who were lost had found Jesus.

I just want to love you, and all of my brothers and sisters in Christ, without conditions or blame. I want to show everyone how glorious it feels to be a Christian. What happiness and joy and peace can come into your heart and mind when you know that God is taking care of you.

I created a video about when I “died”. I was in a coma and went to Heaven. God spoke to me and told me that it was not my time because He still has work for me to do. I saw my husband, and he told me that I had to go back, but that he would be waiting there for me. I was in a coma for several weeks, and only awoke after my brother-in-law prayed over me. When I woke up, I did not remember anything but that experience - not what was wrong with me or why I was in ICU. I have died twice since then, and the doctors have been able to revive me (those paddles hurt).

I would like for you to watch it and tell me what you think.

youtube.com/watch?v=DV_IeRlIWVU

With love through Christ,

Karen

Hi Karen, I would like to explain something about denominations. Catholicism is the only non-denominational Church within Christianity. Catholic simply means universal. Catholic is the opposite of denomination. When you speak of so-called non-denominational Protestants, that is a denomination of it’s own. I actually attended a non-denominational church for a period of time with my husband, before he converted to the fullness of faith in the Catholic Church. Non-denominational protestants don’t believe in the Eucharist so it wouldn’t be possible to receive the Eucharist from a non-denominational Minister. That’s why I asked you that question. You say that you believe in the Eucharist but who could you receive that from outside of the Catholic Church? Remember, the Bible establishes that Jesus is the only High Priest. So the only way bread and wine could be turned into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ is through Jesus himself. The Catholic Priest acts in the very person of Christ during the heavenly liturgy of the Mass and it is God who changes the bread and wine. The Catholic Priest is able to do this through Jesus because he has been ordained in unbroken Apostolic succession. You could not find that in the Protestant denomination of non-denominationalism.

Jesus didn’t say, go and do what you agree with. The Bible presents a very different message. Jesus said that when we hear those he appointed, we hear him and that when we reject them, we reject God (Luke 10:16). The Bible says to go to the Church for answers. The Bible says we must listen to the Church. If you believe every word of the Bible, what do you make of the verses I just shared with habagat123? Specifically Matthew 18:15-17? And 1 Timothy 3:15? What do you make of the evidence in the Bible that the early Christian communities were under the authority of the Church?

I think it’s also important to recognize the Trinity in this conversation. God is an eternal exchange of love between the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. We know God through our interactions with people. The Bible is awesome and we are blessed to have the Word of God on it’s pages but we must go beyond just me and a book. We are members of a body, the Body of Christ! That involves an eternal exchange of love and is played out in all of our actions which includes our relationship to all those members of his Body which are Christ himself. This includes those who have already passed on.

Thank you for sharing some of your story about dying and being in a coma. Wow, that is very moving! I will come back to check out the video. I have my little one here with me now and do not want to play a video at this time. I will come back at a later date and let you know what I think after I am able to watch. Please bear with me as I am in the middle of a big deadline so I don’t have a lot of time to post right now.

 

[John_Martin]

…I am no longer a Catholic …

I am in no way trying to let other Catholics lose their faith as

Actually, it happened to you. You were a Catholic who was weak in the Faith which you said you believed. So when you found problems with people in the Church in your country, instead of doing like a person strong in Faith and studying the Bible and Church teaching about the Bible, you were susceptible to the voices of people saying the Catholic Church is wrong. So you were led astray from the Truth by loud voices just like your voice now. A strong Catholic means it when he says, “I believe in the Holy Spirit”, “I believe in the Holy Catholic Church”. And if something seems amiss with the way people are practicing that Faith, a strong Catholic will research and will definitely find the truth about the issue. Then the strong Catholic will help lead the weak Catholics back to true practice of the Faith.

Your target is weak Catholics, those who do not really know how to search out the truth and have been living in cultures where popular opinion is substituted for Church Teaching. Everything you described about the problems you saw in the Catholic Church is popular practice of faith rather than studying to find the Church’s real Teachings. You were enticed away by popular cultural opinions of the Church (you were not enticed away from a full understanding of the True Faith because you did not have a full understanding as a strong Catholic), and now you have lost also the real teachings that could have been yours.

John Martin

 

[habagat123]

Firstly, the Catechism is only saying here that Muslims worship the same God as Christians.

-Verily, the hypocrites seek to deceive Allah, but it is He Who deceives them. And when they stand up for As-Salat (the prayer), they stand with laziness and to be seen of men, and they do not remember Allah but little. S. 4:142 Hilali-Khan

-And (the unbelievers) schemed and planned, and Allah schemed also, and the best of schemers is Allah. S. 3:54

Do you believe with ALL you heart that our God is the same as Allah? The very teaching that has brought down the twin towers???

Can our God deceive? Sorry but I refuse to believe, even the Muslims I guess don’t agree, Allah for them is not the same as our One True God.

wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_redemptive_death
What is a redemptive death?
Answer: Jesus’ death was the only redemptive death because he rose again from the dead and so redeemed us if we believe in him.

Had to source out what redemptive means, please excuse for my poor English understanding but I’m trying to catch up on you guys. I don’t know if wiki.answers.com is correct on it’s explanation re redemptive death.

***whoever is saved is saved in Christ because only through Christ’s redemptive life, death and resurrection can we be saved. ***

– But the Muslims don’t believe in Jesus as well as the trinity, how then can they be save? First, their god is different from our God. Next, they don’t believe in Jesus as their Lord and Saviour, yet the Catholic Church says otherwise. Your explanation doesn’t seem to make me understand, confuses me more though.

Council of Trent
CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”

Romans 5:1
Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

Romans 4:5
And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness,

Galatians 2:16

Yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Don’t these Bible verses contradict Canon 9 of the council of Trent? Would this put apostle Paul as an anathema by the council of Trent? He did say “saved by faith alone” didn’t he?

 

[habagat123]

How so? Christ appointed Peter to be his vicar when he conferred on him the keys of the kingdom….I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

-“you” as I understand is singular, could the appointment be for Peter and ends with Peter only? Is there a verse that says that pope succession is true and Biblical?

We are not talking about the presidency here, we are talking about a leader who leads all men away from sin and into salvation. If this Church is Holy and infallible, why did Popes committed horrible acts? If the Holy Spirit is guiding these Popes who were the successor of Peter, then why those sins of the Popes? Therefore, The Holy Spirit was not with them, correct?

Please show in scripture where The Bible says to hold on to the Bible as your only guide to Christ.Catholics also believe that The Bible is the true Word of God and not the Catechism.

-The Bible as you and I agree is The word of God not the Catechism, wouldn’t you want to hold on to it as your guide to Christ?

-Good! Please read and obey The Bible then, evangelize and rebuke! You might be better in reading and explaining scriptures to me. I would be very happy as I want to understand more of the scriptures with my limited mind, be it from Catholics or Christians as long as we discuss from The Bible and not from any other book or references.

Although I should also point out that The Word of God is not limited to The Bible. According to the Bible, Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:14) and he can’t be reduced to the pages in a book. That is according to Scripture (John 21:25). What are you missing out on by reducing him in this way?

-Exactly! Jesus is The Word of God, to which the apostles have recorded in the Bible to preserve for us and to guide us to Him and ONLY Him! I have never heard Jesus talking now but I have listened to Him through the Bible. The very Word of God that has not changed thousands years ago…though have had many versions(except for the original text) but still, the teachings are the same. The Catholic teachings have changed a number of times. Did Pope Francis recently retract the teaching of this place called Limbo? The Bible has not changed it’s teachings.

The Bible points to one person only, Jesus Christ on salvation. Not to other hundred confusing ways…including the Catholic Mary that was taught to us that she can snatched us from the fires of hell, isn’t that salvation by her? Isn’t that anti-Biblical and anti-Mary?

Bible studies are routinely offered at Catholic Churches around the globe. If they were Catholics who were following their Priests then they were routinely reading their Bible.

-not here in the islands. Most of the Bible study are done by Christians. How can catholics here read the Bible when it is the priest who tells us that The Bible, the word of God, will just confuse us! It is a common thing here that Catholics are not expose to The Bible, and those who mostly who did, are not with the Catholic Church anymore.

Actually, it happened to you. You were a Catholic who was weak in the Faith which you said you believed. So when you found problems with people in the Church in your country, instead of doing like a person strong in Faith and studying the Bible and Church teaching about the Bible, you were susceptible to the voices of people saying the Catholic Church is wrong.

-John, it’s true I was weak in faith in Jesus Christ before but as I was reading The Bible slowly, it has opened my eyes that all that I have done before, idol worship(very common to the Catholic Churches here) and many others are anti Biblical. Sorry but when I had questions before about the Catholic faith, most of the priest I spoke to shut me down…and told me to pray the rosary and trust the saints, it was not the answer I was looking for. The “voices of people” you are saying happened only when my questions grew louder inside of me, thus I searched for Bible reading Christians, which has truly explained to me. Again, my walk with Christ is still new but I am HAPPY with The Lord and what he has done for me! I can’t be unfaithful to Him anymore.

***Your target is weak Catholics, those who do not really know how to search out the truth and have been living in cultures where popular opinion is substituted for Church Teaching. Everything you described about the problems you saw in the Catholic Church is popular practice of faith rather than studying to find the Church’s real Teachings. You were enticed away by popular cultural opinions of the Church (you were not enticed away from a full understanding of the True Faith because you did not have a full understanding as a strong Catholic), and now you have lost also the real teachings that could have been yours.

---

-I would not say weak Catholics but true believer of Christ who are looking for the truth.
I am fine where I am now and I believe with my whole heart that I have found true faith in Jesus Christ alone. If He can change Saul to Paul, He can change anyone, including you.

To God be all the glory!

 

[pilgrimjake]

Well - depending on the specifics of the situation, I would make two comments. First would be to point out that Catholic’s ARE Christians and then ask them why they left the Catholicism.
Of course wording can vary in this…for example one might simply say, "Why did you leave Catholicism since, as a catholic, you were already a Christian?

The most important thing is to respond in an inquisitive manner…a way that will open up conversation.

I agree with this guy since first of all he’s right, and conversation is necessary for evangelizing this pagan people. If they are not Catholic, my first question would be why on earth did you leave, or if they were never Catholic, "Here, let me tell you the truth in Catholicism, ask me any question and ill tell you what the Church’s stance is. " We need to inform the people of the Truth, we need to evangelize, otherwise, what is our purpose in being Catholic?

 

[habagat123]

" We need to inform the people of the Truth, we need to evangelize, otherwise, what is our purpose in being Catholic?

-Jake, i suggest you come down to the southern part of The Philippines and evangelize, try the island of Jolo where a lot of Muslims resides. I guarantee you, your head will depart from your body in less than 1 week.

These are the same people that the Council of Trent says, they believe in the same god as our True God. WOW!

 

[KelIyPalmer]

-“you” as I understand is singular, could the appointment be for Peter and ends with Peter only? Is there a verse that says that pope succession is true and Biblical?

You think he build his Church on a foundation that was only meant to last until Peter’s death? Again, the Bible doesn’t say that everything you need to know is contained inside. The Bible establishes that Christians are under the authority of Church hierarchy and Jesus himself instructed us to follow the authority of His Church. Is there a verse that says Peter was meant to be the only one? This asking for verses goes both ways.

We are not talking about the presidency here, we are talking about a leader who leads all men away from sin and into salvation. If this Church is Holy and infallible, why did Popes committed horrible acts? If the Holy Spirit is guiding these Popes who were the successor of Peter, then why those sins of the Popes? Therefore, The Holy Spirit was not with them, correct?

No, this is not correct. The Holy Spirit does not make Popes free from sin. The Holy Spirit guides the Church in being free from error in her teachings. The Church does not claim that Popes are infallible in all that they do.

-The Bible as you and I agree is The word of God not the Catechism, wouldn’t you want to hold on to it as your guide to Christ?

I noticed you did not provide a verse from Scripture here to answer my question. Is this because there is no such verse? If you are free to believe things not contained in the Bible, why do you insist that the Church must provide a Bible verse for everything it teaches? As Catholics, we too hold on to the Bible. Even the Bible itself does not claim to be the only guide to Christ. The believe that it is, is a modern tradition of men.

-Good! Please read and obey The Bible then, evangelize and rebuke! You might be better in reading and explaining scriptures to me. I would be very happy as I want to understand more of the scriptures with my limited mind, be it from Catholics or Christians as long as we discuss from The Bible and not from any other book or references.

The Bible itself says to use other references, namely the Church. I just provided you multiple verses stating such.

-Exactly! Jesus is The Word of God, to which the apostles have recorded in the Bible to preserve for us and to guide us to Him and ONLY Him! I have never heard Jesus talking now but I have listened to Him through the Bible. The very Word of God that has not changed thousands years ago…though have had many versions(except for the original text) but still, the teachings are the same.

The Bible actually has been changed. The Protestant Bible has stuff added in (Luther added the word “alone”). The deuterocanonical were taken out in the 1830s after two Scottish Bible Societies pressured te British Bible Society, not to fund any Protestant publisher that wished to publish any Bible in the same form as Martin Luther. Martin Luther had the deuterocanonical in th appendix. So that’s when the deuterocanonical was removed and essentially the birth of the modern Protestant Bible. The interesting thing is that at first, the cross references to the deuterocanonical remained in the KJV even though the books were removed, lol. They eventually removed the cross references too.

You can actually read the work of the Scottish Bible society on why they wanted to put the pressure to remove the deuterocanonical and I had a lot to do with not wanting anything “Catholic” in The Bible. They actually wrote that they feared if the deuterocanonical remained in Protestant Bibles, tha Protestants would become Catholic. They said any publisher who printed the Bible as the reformers had with the deuterocanonical, were “aiding and abetting Rome”.

The Catholic teachings have changed a number of times. Did Pope Francis recently retract the teaching of this place called Limbo? The Bible has not changed it’s teachings.

This is incorrect. Catholic teachings have never changed. The same can not be said for the many tens of thousands of Protestant “Bible Churches”, all teaching different things. Limbo was merely a theory that some hypothesized. The Church’s teachings on faith and morals have not and can not change. Please let me know if there is anything else I can clear up about that, any other ideas that you may have been misled to believe were teachings of the Church that changed.

 

[KelIyPalmer]

The Bible points to one person only, Jesus Christ on salvation. Not to other hundred confusing ways…including the Catholic Mary that was taught to us that she can snatched us from the fires of hell, isn’t that salvation by her? Isn’t that anti-Biblical and anti-Mary?

I must remind you again, that the Catholic Church does not teach that Mary snatches us from the fires of hell. Please provide a source for that as an official teaching and if you can not, we can put that matter to rest . The Bible’s message on salvation is consistent with the Catholic Church’s teachings on salvation. It’s both/and…it’s simple and it’s complex. I noticed you posted a bunch of Bible verses for another poster about salvation but what about the ones that go against what you claim? What about James 2:17? What about James 2:26? Faith without works is dead. You can rest assured that the Catholic Church has never taught that one can earn their salvation through works. The Catholic Church teaches that one can only be saved by the grace of God. However, it is possible for one to resist God’s grace. Attempting to separate works from faith goes against the Bible. Read 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and Galatians 5:19-21.

-not here in the islands. Most of the Bible study are done by Christians. How can catholics here read the Bible when it is the priest who tells us that The Bible, the word of God, will just confuse us! It is a common thing here that Catholics are not expose to The Bible, and those who mostly who did, are not with the Catholic Church anymore.

I just did a google search for Catholic Church’s in the Philippines and they do offer Bible study. So, perhaps you have missed what is truly offered. I have noticed that Protestants who convert to Catholicism are often those very very strong in their faith with much knowledge, especially on scripture. Yet I have also noticed that Catholics who convert to Protestantism are often very weak in their faith with little knowledge on scripture. Also, I think part of my point may have been lost. Even Catholic Priests in Philippines read the Bible to all those who attend Mass, every day. The Bible is constantly being proclaimed over and over in Catholic Churches all over Philippines. So I don’t follow the claim that they tell people not to read the Bible but then proceed to read them the Bible excessively every single day, multiple times a day. I was very impressed with the amount of Masses offered there, looking at the website for a diocese there.

 

[habagat123]

Is there a verse that says Peter was meant to be the only one?

-I just did, Matthew 16:19, says only “you” as in singular, isn’t it? Please show me the verse that backs up pope succession, thank you.

I must remind you again, that the Catholic Church does not teach that Mary snatches us from the fires of hell. Please provide a source for that as an official teaching and if you can not, we can put that matter to rest .

-it may not be an official teaching but it is widely taught here, cultivating a lot of Marian group devotion because of that teaching. Try to search it and you will see. I posted some prayers for Mother Mary which says exactly that, if they know(church leaders here) is wrong, why is it still sold here? Why can’t priests here put their feet down and say it is wrong? I tell you, because the coffers will stop clinging! As I said, there are money boxes beside these idols.

When it comes to the Catholic faith here, I am probably more knowledgeable of the true situation here than you, don’t you think? Have you even been to the Islands here? I would suggest you come, our beaches are good and people are friendly…just don’t go down south though.

I noticed you did not provide a verse from Scripture here to answer my question.

-I would hold on to 2 Timothy 3:16 as my guide…you can believe what you want and hang on to your Church and Catechism, as they say “whatever float your boat”, am I right by saying it? While I’ll hold on to Bible as my guide to Jesus, that wouldn’t make me less than a man, wouldn’t it?

***I just did a google search for Catholic Church’s in the Philippines and they do offer Bible study. So, perhaps you have missed what is truly offered. I have noticed that Protestants who convert to Catholicism are often those very very strong in their faith with much knowledge, especially on scripture. Yet I have also noticed that Catholics who convert to Protestantism are often very weak in their faith with little knowledge on scripture. Also, I think part of my point may have been lost. ***

-good that you did, I also tried and most that came out of google were from other Christian denomination. You see Kelly, Catholic churches here are like weeds, they are everywhere and it so easy to go into one but I tell you, none that I know of offers Bible study!

Even Catholic Priests in Philippines read the Bible to all those who attend Mass, every day. The Bible is constantly being proclaimed over and over in Catholic Churches all over Philippines. So I don’t follow the claim that they tell people not to read the Bible but then proceed to read them the Bible excessively every single day, multiple times a day. I was very impressed with the amount of Masses offered there, looking at the website for a diocese there.

-true! But the Gospels our priest here say are always the same, as you say “cherry picking”? meaning there are hundreds of verses never mentioned in Catholic masses here, it always repeat.

Sorry but I need to go, I’ll try to reply to you on the other subject but it was good talking to you.I learned a few things from you which i’ll read again later but it has not convince me to go back.

To God be all the glory!

 

[EIF5A]

Mary obtains for us graces from her Son Jesus Christ. She always leads to salvation through Christ. She helps us in the process. She is not our savior but leads us to Him.

Why do we ask people to pray for us if we can just pray directly to God?

God desires constant humble unceasing prayers, and the saints in heaven, including Mary, are doing just that for salvation of souls.

 

[John_Martin]

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Don’t these Bible verses contradict Canon 9 of the council of Trent? Would this put apostle Paul as an anathema by the council of Trent? He did say “saved by faith alone” didn’t he?

Protestants: Grace is a disposition inside of God where he chooses to favor you and tell you he will not hold your sins against you. Faith is believing he does not count your sins against you. As a person, there is no difference in you. Grace is God’s disposition / Faith is man’s activity or disposition. So, for a Protestant, God does something and man does the response. This contradicts Paul; it has made man’s faith into his own work, because God did not do the Faith but only chose not to condemn.

Catholics: Grace is a substantial object that God, the Holy Spirit, puts in you when he decides to Favor you, and this object “infuses” into you the Habits known as the Virtues, and Faith is the first of these Virtues. The Catholic then has this “supernatural Faith” that he uses in the way he looks at God, acts in regard to God, believes in regard to God, and behaves as a son of God in the world, as a “Virtuous Person”.

So, Catholics are saved by Grace Alone (that substantial object deposited in us with the Holy Spirit) and that Grace brought Faith with it, by which we Live our Lives and will Live in Eternity in the Presence of our dear Lord. We are Saved by GRACE ALONE through FAITH which is part of this Grace. All from God, not from man.

John Martin

Now, that is enough to convince a reasonable person to return from his protest against the Church. The words to you end here.

 

[KelIyPalmer]

-I just did, Matthew 16:19, says only “you” as in singular, isn’t it? Please show me the verse that backs up pope succession, thank you.

That just means there is only one Pope appointed at a time. It says nothing about any future Popes or lack thereof. We have kept that tradition of only electing one Pope at a time. Apostolic succession is established in Acts when they cast lots to replace Judas. So the Bible does support this.

-it may not be an official teaching but it is widely taught here, cultivating a lot of Marian group devotion because of that teaching. Try to search it and you will see. I posted some prayers for Mother Mary which says exactly that, if they know(church leaders here) is wrong, why is it still sold here? Why can’t priests here put their feet down and say it is wrong? I tell you, because the coffers will stop clinging! As I said, there are money boxes beside these idols.

This Marian devotion sounds wonderful!! I suggest that you may have misunderstood the part of about Mary snatching people.

When it comes to the Catholic faith here, I am probably more knowledgeable of the true situation here than you, don’t you think? Have you even been to the Islands here? I would suggest you come, our beaches are good and people are friendly…just don’t go down south though.

Surely, you are more knowledgeable than I when it comes to where you live. That said, a lot of this stuff is verifiable. Also, any one of us can misunderstand things about where we live. I have misunderstood things as well.

-I would hold on to 2 Timothy 3:16 as my guide…you can believe what you want and hang on to your Church and Catechism, as they say “whatever float your boat”, am I right by saying it? While I’ll hold on to Bible as my guide to Jesus, that wouldn’t make me less than a man, wouldn’t it?

So you have nothing to say about the verses I mentioned? Your response is that you have no answer but you hold on to another verse? The thing about 2 Timothy 3:16 is that it was said before a single verse of the New Testament was written. So he was talking about the Old Testament which really sets the scene for the Eucharist, for Christ become our Paschal Lamb and then Paul’s command that we keep the feast! One thing I love about the Catholic Church is that her teachings allow us to embrace and hold on to every verse in the Bible, not just holding on to one or two and here and there and dismissing the ones that don’t go alone with our personal views.

-true! But the Gospels our priest here say are always the same, as you say “cherry picking”? meaning there are hundreds of verses never mentioned in Catholic masses here, it always repeat.

This is not true. This is another example of something that is verifiable. I looked up the Mass readings for Catholic Churches in the Philippines and they are not always repeated. The readings there DO go through the entire Bible. You can see for yourself, the schedule of readings there - cbcpnews.com/cbcpnews/?p=23832

 

[His_helpmeet]

-I just did, Matthew 16:19, says only “you” as in singular, isn’t it? Please show me the verse that backs up pope succession, thank you.

-it may not be an official teaching but it is widely taught here, cultivating a lot of Marian group devotion because of that teaching. Try to search it and you will see. I posted some prayers for Mother Mary which says exactly that, if they know(church leaders here) is wrong, why is it still sold here? Why can’t priests here put their feet down and say it is wrong? I tell you, because the coffers will stop clinging! As I said, there are money boxes beside these idols.

When it comes to the Catholic faith here, I am probably more knowledgeable of the true situation here than you, don’t you think? Have you even been to the Islands here? I would suggest you come, our beaches are good and people are friendly…just don’t go down south though.

-I would hold on to 2 Timothy 3:16 as my guide…you can believe what you want and hang on to your Church and Catechism, as they say “whatever float your boat”, am I right by saying it? While I’ll hold on to Bible as my guide to Jesus, that wouldn’t make me less than a man, wouldn’t it?

-good that you did, I also tried and most that came out of google were from other Christian denomination. You see Kelly, Catholic churches here are like weeds, they are everywhere and it so easy to go into one but I tell you, none that I know of offers Bible study!

-true! But the Gospels our priest here say are always the same, as you say “cherry picking”? meaning there are hundreds of verses never mentioned in Catholic masses here, it always repeat.

Sorry but I need to go, I’ll try to reply to you on the other subject but it was good talking to you.I learned a few things from you which i’ll read again later but it has not convince me to go back.

To God be all the glory!

Jesus said, “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” To state that the Catholic Church is not the true Church, when it was founded on the rock of Peter and the teachings of Jesus, is to state that Jesus lied - that the gates of hell prevailed against His Church.

I suspect I know the verse you are referring to in 2 Timothy, which says that all Scripture is good and useful for teaching. Effectively, this states that if something in Scripture, it is true - which is a fact. That said, the converse is not necessarily true, i.e. if something is true, it MUST be contained in Scripture. I teach practical nursing for a living. An analogous comment is to say that all of the textbooks my students use are useful for nursing. This is true. However, it is not correct to say that if something is useful in nursing, it is necessarily contained within those textbooks. ANY nurse will tell you that it takes YEARS of experience to be able to handle most situations - usually two years. This is why we include clinical practica in our students’ experiences. Picking up a nursing textbook and reading it cover to cover will not make you a nurse, just as picking up a Bible and reading it cover to cover will not teach you everything about the Catholic (or even the Christian) faith. St. Paul wrote about oral traditions, and St. John said in his Gospel that there were many other things that Jesus said, and did, that were not written down. We also know, from Scripture, that Jesus spent 40 days after His resurrection with the Apostles teaching them. The nature of those teachings is not contained in Scripture - and yet, why would He have taught them if it wasn’t important to do so?

A statue is NOT an idol, any more than pictures of a deceased relative are idols. They remind us that the saints are alive in Christ and are able to pray for us. (The “money boxes” that you refer to are used for donations for candles that may be lit as a devotion to specific saints. The donations pay for the candles.) If you look at Catholic prayers, we do not worship Mary as if she were God. This is a common misconception among non-Catholics. We honour Mary. We called her “blessed”, as she herself proclaimed we would do in the Magnificat. We use her life as an example. We ask her to pray for us. But we do not “worship” her as we do God.

In terms of reading the Bible, the readings run on a 3-year cycle. Each Mass has three readings - one from the Old Testament (or the Acts of the Apostles, during the Easter season), one from the New Testament (from one of the letters or Revelation) and one from one of the Gospels. In year A we read the Gospel of Matthew, year B we read the Gospel of Mark, and year C we read the Gospel of Luke. (The Gospel of John is reserved for specific feasts, and there are some feasts, such as Good Friday, Ash Wednesday, Easter Vigil, and Holy Thursday, where the same readings are read each year.) In the Tridentine Mass, the entire Bible is read once every 3 years.

 

[KelIyPalmer]

Just to piggy-back on the last response, another thing I meant to write earlier was that Jesus’ ministry was only about 3 years. Little else is talked about in the Bible for the other 30 years of Jesus’ life. Exceptions would be his birth and presentation…stuff like that. And then the finding in the Temple at age 12. Incidentally, the first words Jesus spoke in the Bible was to say that his mother should know, he must be in his father’s house. This speaks volumes to me. But what about the whole 30 years before his ministry began? He was with his mother. He was with the woman who magnifies the Lord (Luke 1:46). The Bible gives us 3 years of Jesus’s life. Mary has the other 30 years in her heart. Don’t let the evil one pit Mary against Jesus. Mary can bring you closer to her son. She does this daily for millions of people around the world. She has done this for me.

 

[KelIyPalmer]

A great video from Fr Barron on idolatry - youtube.com/watch?v=fWiEoZhyrQc

 

[habagat123]

That just means there is only one Pope appointed at a time. It says nothing about any future Popes or lack thereof. We have kept that tradition of only electing one Pope at a time. Apostolic succession is established in Acts when they cast lots to replace Judas. So the Bible does support this.

-Acts 1:23-26 So they nominated two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

-Matthias was added to the eleven, there was no singular Pope which Catholics refer to as “Holy Father” to be the supreme leader during their days. It just says “added to the eleven”. The Church should have no leader because the Church is the body and Christ is the head. In my own little understanding Jesus is the head of the Church not that Pope who claims to be God himself on earth. Didn’t a pope say it?

This Marian devotion sounds wonderful!! I suggest that you may have misunderstood the part of about Mary snatching people.

-how can one misunderstood this simple prayer? With my limited English, I can understand it well that this prayer gives Mary the power to save us from hell. How clear could this get? This is just some of the prayers that speaks about Mary’s salvation power and that is what’s wrong here. People already are looking at your Catholic Mary than Jesus as “refuge” and people already think that she will lead people to Jesus. Again, the Bible is silent about that teaching…to Jesus, through Mary which catholics hold. As I said before, Jesus does not need this Mary as His hearing aid. God is a listing God and we can go to Him directly.

TO SAVE SOULS FROM HELL, GOD WISHES TO ESTABLISH IN THE WORLD DEVOTION TO MY IMMACULATE HEART. MY IMMACULATE HEART WILL BE YOUR REFUGE AND THE WAY THAT WILL LEAD YOU TO GOD.
– FATIMA. 1917

Surely, you are more knowledgeable than I when it comes to where you live. That said, a lot of this stuff is verifiable.

-you said you have searched the web about Bible studies here in the Philippines, can I have those links please? I might see some that is near to where I am. I do know there are Couples for Christ that has Bible study but I have a friend who goes there but he said, they just socialize and only the priest brought the Bible, again you can confirm that if that is true.

***James 2:17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

James 2:26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.***

-I am not a theologian or a priest, nor a pastor I am just a lowly sinner but I do know we are all equipped to understand The Word of God. I agree! Faith without works…is not TRUE faith! You can’t claim to have faith in the Lord and do the other way, do you? As Apostle Paul said “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.”. Grace and faith comes from God and this is what saves us from hell - not the prayer of The Lady of Fatima. Not works so that neither you nor I can boast. As a Catholic(I was under a Jesuit and The SVD school) before we were always taught that we have to do good works to go to heaven, meaning Christ’s death was not enough to save us!

-So again, it is by God’s grace, through faith which again are God’s gift to us where we are saved! However, faith without works is dead faith! You will see my true faith by my works. If you believe that works will save you, would this mean good non believers are saved because of their good works? They do have faith also but to a different god, perhaps Allah. Will they be saved?

 

[habagat123]

***This is not true. This is another example of something that is verifiable. I looked up the Mass readings for Catholic Churches in the Philippines and they are not always repeated. The readings there DO go through the entire Bible. You can see for yourself, the schedule of readings there ***

-maybe I was at the last pew most of the times and gets sleepy or perhaps I and several other people were busy with texting that we have not heard the Gospel. If that is true, then good! However, Gospels here are not well explained and we do noticed that is a year already because of what we heard last year. Plus the homily sometimes talks about the states affair, not the Gospel. As I said, try to ask a Filipino im sure one or two lives near you, we are like the Jews, we are also scattered everywhere! Ask them about our devotion and prayer to Mary, ask them about what we believe about her, ask them about the Bible that it is not taught as heavily at Catholic schools and Bible study is not important here unless you are a Christian or from a Christian school. This you can verify easily!

Now, that is enough to convince a reasonable person to return from his protest against the Church.

-John, I am not being rude here but if you are ok kissing and kneeling church statues and idols, then that’s your decision but I am tired of kissing and kneeling on idols and it bothers me when my children did the same before. Besides, don’t you think it’s unhygienic? I am an anathema and I accept it.

John 4:23-24
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

-Lastly, Kelly and John, do you guys agree that we worship the same god as the Muslims? Please understand why I am going back to this subject since I am just confused why it is so and I see this Catechism contradicts the Bible. I see one Catholic agreeing already that the muslim god is the same as our God. As she said “Firstly, the Catechism is only saying here that Muslims worship the same God as Christians.”
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”