The Right to Choose

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WillieWonka said:
Why is the fetus not baptised as soon as its presence is known. If one considers if fully human and entitled to all the rights and protections of a full human, wouldn’t baptism be in order?
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It is physically impossible to baptize in utero.
 
SteveGC said:
What does not being a member of the Church have to do with being a member of society? Just because a person may or may not be “Catholic” has nothing to do with the reality that they are a person. So, yes…I do think it’s unreasonable to conclude that because some unborn may not be members of the Church, that they are therefore not members of society. Remember, the Church didn’t come up with the definition of when life begins on their own. The Church is guided by the very hand of God, and when the Church makes an official teaching, it is coming directly from the Spirit of God. Not believing in God makes that difficult to understand, I know. But that’s the truth. Hence, as life begins at conception, the unborn at all stages are members of society…regardless of the “catholicity” of the unborn. This is why Catholics condemn the notion of excluding the unborn from society.

The fetus isn’t baptized because it is impractical to do so…not because of any ensoulment issue. Again…the Church infallibly declares that life begins at conception (this comes from the teaching of God). God may not have revealed the precise timing of ensoulment, but He did guide the Church to declare when life begins. I’ll add this post of mine from the other abortion thread, where I replied to one of your ensoulment issues:

But WW, this (ensoulment issue) has no bearing on what is acceptable to believe. Because, despite the [lack of a] unanimous declaration of precise timing of ensoulment, the Church officially declares that life begins at conception…at that very instant…and is sacred…and must not be deliberately terminated…ever. The fact that they disagree on the timing of ensoulment is irrelevant to the infallible declaration of when life begins.

And so, it is NOT acceptable to God to believe otherwise…to believe there is a point between conception and nidation wherein abortion is justified. God, through the Church, decrees that life begins at conception…period.

The crux of the matter is whether or not it is important to someone to follow what God decrees…or to follow their own prideful whim.
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“So, yes…I do think it’s unreasonable to conclude that because some unborn may not be members of the Church, that they are therefore not members of society.”

That’s not my conclusion.

I observe a fetus is not a member of the Church.

I observe society does not consider the fetus a member of society.

It appears both the Church and society are doing the same thing. So, is it reasonable to condemn the notion that the fetus is not amember of society?
 
JimG said:
It is physically impossible to baptize in utero.
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So, a quarter inch of tissue is an acceptable reason to keep a fetus out of society of the Church. Others think that same quarter inch is an acceptable reason to keep a fetus out of society.
 
WillieWonka said:
“So, yes…I do think it’s unreasonable to conclude that because some unborn may not be members of the Church, that they are therefore not members of society.”

That’s not my conclusion.

I observe a fetus is not a member of the Church.

I observe society does not consider the fetus a member of society.

It appears both the Church and society are doing the same thing. So, is it reasonable to condemn the notion that the fetus is not amember of society?
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Catholic means universal, so we are all members of His Church even if they don’t become a formal memeber or if one chooses to become a formal member of some other denomination and have themselves or their child Baptized there. They are stil members of the Universal Church.

Even a preborn whose parents could care less to have them Baptized or who don’t consider their child to be a child of God. even that child was given life by God.

You don’t have to believe something is true in order for it to be true. Some things are true no matter what anyone believes. Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.

Even all the Catholic Bishops disagree with you.

U.S. Bishops Urge Congress to Observe Respect for Life, Access for All in Health Care Legislation

WASHINGTON—“Genuine health care reform that protects the life and dignity of all is a moral imperative and a vital national obligation,” said Bishop William F. Murphy of Rockville Centre, N.Y., as he outlined the policy priorities of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) on the issue of health care in a July 17 letter to Congress. The letter supported efforts to pass health care reform, but warned against inclusion of abortion.

Writing on behalf of the bishops as chairman of their Committee on Domestic Justice and Human Development, Bishop Murphy said the bishops have advocated comprehensive health care reform for decades and recommended four criteria for fair and just health care reform: respect for human life and dignity, access for all, pluralism and equitable costs.

“Two of these criteria need special attention as Congress moves forward with health care reform,” Bishop Murphy said.

**On respecting life and dignity, he said, “No health care reform plan should compel us or others to pay for the destruction of human life, whether through government funding or mandatory coverage of abortion. **Any such action would be morally wrong.”

usccb.org/comm/archives/2009/09-161.shtml

my bolding and underlining

Here is somthing else for your information:

usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-171.shtml

November 11, 2008

Bishops Approve Blessing for Child in the Womb

BALTIMORE—The U.S. bishops approved the Order for the Blessing of a Child in the Womb for use in the dioceses of the United States with a 223-1 vote November 11, at their General Assembly in Baltimore. The bishops also approved a Spanish version of the blessing with a 224-0 vote.

The Blessing of a Child in the Womb was prepared by the USCCB Committee on Pro-Life Activities after receiving requests from dioceses for such a blessing and not finding an existing blessing for a newly conceived child. In March, 2008 a blessing was prepared and submitted to the Committee on Divine Worship. The proposed blessing is distinct from the Blessing of Parents before Childbirth found in the Book of Blessings.

The Blessing of a Child in the Womb Within Mass and Outside Mass, in English and in Spanish, upon recognitio by the Congregation on Divine Worship and the Sacraments in Rome for use in the dioceses of the United States of America, will be included in future editions of the Book of Blessings (de Benedictionibus) when the text is revised.

usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-171.shtml
 
WillieWonka said:
It’s a simple question. Is the unborn fetus a member of the Cuurch. It is Catholic?
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Yes. Sorry if I was not clear on that. It is a member of the universal Church. The unborn fetus is unquestionably human. The Church is at some level comprised of all humans. It is God’s covenant with mankind. None of us are perfectly joined to it, but many are sufficiently joined as to be in “communion” with the Church. Most are not joined at that level. We are each joined to it by the humanity of Christ.

Church doctrine states that all salvation comes through the Church, and at the same time it acknowledges that some who are not fomally and/or ritually “members” of the Church may attain salvation. There is a level of connection that lies in our common humanity, in our shared heritage of being created in the image and likeness of God that lies underneath the merely human apprehension of “member.” We are called to be as closely joined to the covenant as we can be, but the passage in Galatians reminds us that we are all one in Christ Jesus.
 
WillieWonka said:
So, a quarter inch of tissue is an acceptable reason to keep a fetus out of society of the Church. Others think that same quarter inch is an acceptable reason to keep a fetus out of society.
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No, others wish to invade that quarter inch in order to physically destroy the fetus. The Church already considers him or her to be a child of God.
 
WillieWonka said:
So, a quarter inch of tissue is an acceptable reason to keep a fetus out of society of the Church. Others think that same quarter inch is an acceptable reason to keep a fetus out of society.
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Read post 404, again, your conclusion is wrong.
 
My conclusion is that society does know it is a child in the womb, otherwise, why would the health care reform going on right now in the U.S.A. be trying to include abortion?

There is more than one way to look at things, isn’t there?
 
JimG said:
No, others wish to invade that quarter inch in order to physically destroy the fetus. The Church already considers him or her to be a child of God.
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👍

Exactly! Why would someone want to destroy someone else by abortion if they weren’t aware that it will eventually be seen in person by them otherwise?

Its kind of like an atheist who doesn’t believe in the existance of God, He still exist even if they can’t physically see HIM. Of course, all they would have to do is lead a Sacramental life provided for them by His Church and they too could see Him face to face, but apparently some just don’t want to do that. Perhaps they are afraid, perhaps all anyone needs to do is get over their fears and face Him.
 
allhers said:
Catholic means universal, so we are all members of His Church even if they don’t become a formal memeber or if one chooses to become a formal member of some other denomination and have themselves or their child Baptized there. They are stil members of the Universal Church.

Even a preborn whose parents could care less to have them Baptized or who don’t consider their child to be a child of God. even that child was given life by God.

You don’t have to believe something is true in order for it to be true. Some things are true no matter what anyone believes. Jesus is the WAY, the TRUTH and the LIFE.

Even all the Catholic Bishops disagree with you.

U.S. Bishops Urge Congress to Observe Respect for Life, Access for All in Health Care Legislation

WASHINGTON—“Genuine health care reform that protects the life and dignity of all is a moral imperative and a vital national obligation,” said Bishop William F. Murphy of Rockville Centre, N.Y., as he outlined the policy priorities of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) on the issue of health care in a July 17 letter to Congress. The letter supported efforts to pass health care reform, but warned against inclusion of abortion.

Writing on behalf of the bishops as chairman of their Committee on Domestic Justice and Human Development, Bishop Murphy said the bishops have advocated comprehensive health care reform for decades and recommended four criteria for fair and just health care reform: respect for human life and dignity, access for all, pluralism and equitable costs.

“Two of these criteria need special attention as Congress moves forward with health care reform,” Bishop Murphy said.

**On respecting life and dignity, he said, “No health care reform plan should compel us or others to pay for the destruction of human life, whether through government funding or mandatory coverage of abortion. **Any such action would be morally wrong.”

usccb.org/comm/archives/2009/09-161.shtml

my bolding and underlining

Here is somthing else for your information:

usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-171.shtml

November 11, 2008

Bishops Approve Blessing for Child in the Womb

BALTIMORE—The U.S. bishops approved the Order for the Blessing of a Child in the Womb for use in the dioceses of the United States with a 223-1 vote November 11, at their General Assembly in Baltimore. The bishops also approved a Spanish version of the blessing with a 224-0 vote.

The Blessing of a Child in the Womb was prepared by the USCCB Committee on Pro-Life Activities after receiving requests from dioceses for such a blessing and not finding an existing blessing for a newly conceived child. In March, 2008 a blessing was prepared and submitted to the Committee on Divine Worship. The proposed blessing is distinct from the Blessing of Parents before Childbirth found in the Book of Blessings.

The Blessing of a Child in the Womb Within Mass and Outside Mass, in English and in Spanish, upon recognitio by the Congregation on Divine Worship and the Sacraments in Rome for use in the dioceses of the United States of America, will be included in future editions of the Book of Blessings (de Benedictionibus) when the text is revised.

usccb.org/comm/archives/2008/08-171.shtml
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Everyone in the world is a Catholic because the word means universal?
 
WillieWonka said:
Everyone in the world is a Catholic because the word means universal?
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Thats what the word Catholic means, universal. Someone may reject that, someone may go somewhere else, but that is exactly what the word Catholic means.
 
JimG said:
No, others wish to invade that quarter inch in order to physically destroy the fetus. The Church already considers him or her to be a child of God.
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The notion remains reasonable. If the Church can exclude unborn, then it’s reasonable for society to do the same.

(Note: I have several conversations going with several different people. To avoid confusion I will treat each of them as independent. So, if Allhers or Papa says something, I will not consider it part of what Jim says, nor will I ask Jim to defend it. The people responding to me do not all agree with each other. I’m really not sure what way would be better.)
 
allhers said:
My conclusion is that society does know it is a child in the womb, otherwise, why would the health care reform going on right now in the U.S.A. be trying to include abortion?

There is more than one way to look at things, isn’t there?
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Well, they wouldn’t be doing an abortion if there wasn’t anything there. Abortions are not exploratory surgery.
 
allhers said:
Thats what the word Catholic means, universal. Someone may reject that, someone may go somewhere else, but that is exactly what the word Catholic means.
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I suppose we all work for Universal Studios?
 
WillieWonka said:
The notion remains reasonable. If the Church can exclude unborn, then it’s reasonable for society to do the same.

(Note: I have several conversations going with several different people. To avoid confusion I will treat each of them as independent. So, if Allhers or Papa says something, I will not consider it part of what Jim says, nor will I ask Jim to defend it. The people responding to me do not all agree with each other. I’m really not sure what way would be better.)
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Thats okay, we can figure it out, we’re not the ones that are confused here.😃

All one need do is click on the quote of the one they are reponding to as you have been doing. We can read all the posts just like you can.

What makes you think that the Church excludes preborns?
 
WillieWonka said:
Well, they wouldn’t be doing an abortion if there wasn’t anything there. Abortions are not exploratory surgery.
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Thats right, they are expelling a child from its Mother’s womb. At least we agree on something.

But to tell you the truth, from what I’ve read about some of those abortions, you’d think that some of those so called abortions “Doctors” were doing exploratory surgery. It’s really sickening and makes me ill when I read some of this on sites that explain it so very well. Sometimes it makes me very sad and ill, other times it angers me that people are so stupid, and sometimes, I just cry for all those little innocent ones that God is trying to bless our world with.
 
allhers said:
Thats okay, we can figure it out, we’re not the ones that are confused here.😃

All one need do is click on the quote of the one they are reponding to as you have been doing. We can read all the posts just like you can.

What makes you think that the Church excludes preborns?
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I see no evidence they are included. What has been provided implies averyone is a Catholic. I don’t think that is the case. Is everyone a Catholic?
 
WillieWonka said:
I see no evidence they are included. What has been provided implies averyone is a Catholic. I don’t think that is the case. Is everyone a Catholic?
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Everyone, including the preborn is a child of God. What one chooses to claim themselves to be is their own free will choice. One can claim to be a satanists but still God considers them His child and any time that prodigal son returns God will accept them with open arms.

No one need fear God, He is pure love.
 
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