The Right to Choose

[stthomas]

First of all, they can really only guess whether the child and mother both will survive… And the guess isn’t highly accurate.

Second:
It is excommunicable to have/help have an abortion of a child. It is excommunicable to have women as priests.
What Rome says goes. That is the ONLY way to be a Catholic.

“Rome has spoken, the issue is settled!”

AMEN!

 

[Mark77]

Well I did, am I allowed to comment? I was told to abort because the pregnancy would kill me. Did I abort? No. Did I die? Still here. I miscarried naturally.

Doctors make mistakes all the time. I found another doctor. A good doctor won’t look at a woman and say that she needs to abort to save her life. A good doctor would do all that is possible to save both. The church and God weren’t asking you to die. This is an age of possibly endless medical miracles! Some doctor somewhere should have been able to take both of you as patients. If your baby couldn’t survive then it was up to God.

It’s easier for a doctor to refer for abortion than to fix the problem. It’s easier for doctors to give out birth control pills than to figure out the cause of the problem.

Why not search for better doctors? omsoul.com has listings for these doctors.

I’m sorry that you felt that was your only decision. Really I am. Your doctor was wrong for suggesting it and for not telling you, “I don’t know how to handle this. I’ll help you find someone who can.”

God Bless you Mary Gail!

God Bless you for your courage to live the Truth and to witness to it.

I used to believe if someone wore a white smock and had an MD after their name, that they knew it all. Boy was I wrong!

All too often, Dr.'s are worried about malpractice lawsuits and if they have no moral objections, it is much safer to abort (murder) the innocent baby than risk complications and a huge lawsuit.

Read Lance Armstrong’s story. When he was diagnosed with testicular cancer, the first couple of Doctors recommended standard treatments available at the time. He and his mother didn’t accept the first recommendations which would have treated the cancer, but would have resulted in a diminished future for quality of life and racing (a win-lose scenario), even though they were accepted by the medical community.

They sought out a win-win treatment, and found it!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

Mark

 

[ryecroft]

AMEN!

TRuly, I am happy for you and your child and I’m really glad it worked out. At the time, I was pretty much hanging on by a thread and my husband got to make the decision - the one we had said we decided we would make and I’m glad he did.
Many of you seem to think that I should feel guilty because I chose to live - the fetus was hanging on by a thread and so was I - it was either going to be both of us or the fetus gone. To me, afterwords, there was no question - not to my husband and later on not to me. Was I sad it had to happen that way? Sure. Do I feel guilt over it? NO WAY!
It’s like all of you seem to think that just because a woman has an abortion she’s going to feel all this guilt - that simply is NOT true for every situation. I know there are tons that have gone with the silent no more thing and the Rachel’s Vinyard thing. I am fully aware of what is now taught - are all of you aware that there are millions of Catholics who believe that in a situation like mine that a choice should be able to be made? There are associations such as Catholics for Choice and multiple other organizations in multiple countries where Catholics band together because they feel that they’re not zealously 100% against abortion. I used to think I was pro life - and I am against abortion most of the time, but it’s seems that many of you would rather be rid of those of us that think an abortion is O.K. in certain circumstances. If everyone here seems to feel (except for the multiple people that have PMed or e-mailed me showing their support - some are just edgy about coming out on here and saying that they understand and agree but they don’t want to be fought with with a group of people who have little if any interest in the other side) - many considered themselves like me to be pro life except in a few circumstances - now it’s been made clear that unless we’re 100% zealots who believe that there is no possible situation on earth where an abortion might be a right thing to do - that we’re not wanted in your “camp”. I’m glad that all of you don’t make up ALL of the Catholic Church - if so, you would Loose a lot of membership - I’m close to wondering if I should even bother to stay Catholic. I did just want to make one more comment - earlier I made a post about not liking what a bunch of men came up with to put down - I should have been more clear - I don’t like it when a group of men, no matter how Holy, get together and make decisions for situations which none of them will ever be able to experience. And that’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. Thank you for all your posts - but I think this one has gone on long enough - continue it if you want.

 

[fix]

I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone

You really mean why can’t we have a right to murder? The easy answer is because there is no such right.

 

[fix]

TRuly, I am happy for you and your child and I’m really glad it worked out. At the time, I was pretty much hanging on by a thread and my husband got to make the decision - the one we had said we decided we would make and I’m glad he did.
Many of you seem to think that I should feel guilty because I chose to live - the fetus was hanging on by a thread and so was I - it was either going to be both of us or the fetus gone. To me, afterwords, there was no question - not to my husband and later on not to me. Was I sad it had to happen that way? Sure. Do I feel guilt over it? NO WAY!
It’s like all of you seem to think that just because a woman has an abortion she’s going to feel all this guilt - that simply is NOT true for every situation. I know there are tons that have gone with the silent no more thing and the Rachel’s Vinyard thing. I am fully aware of what is now taught - are all of you aware that there are millions of Catholics who believe that in a situation like mine that a choice should be able to be made? There are associations such as Catholics for Choice and multiple other organizations in multiple countries where Catholics band together because they feel that they’re not zealously 100% against abortion. I used to think I was pro life - and I am against abortion most of the time, but it’s seems that many of you would rather be rid of those of us that think an abortion is O.K. in certain circumstances. If everyone here seems to feel (except for the multiple people that have PMed or e-mailed me showing their support - some are just edgy about coming out on here and saying that they understand and agree but they don’t want to be fought with with a group of people who have little if any interest in the other side) - many considered themselves like me to be pro life except in a few circumstances - now it’s been made clear that unless we’re 100% zealots who believe that there is no possible situation on earth where an abortion might be a right thing to do - that we’re not wanted in your “camp”. I’m glad that all of you don’t make up ALL of the Catholic Church - if so, you would Loose a lot of membership - I’m close to wondering if I should even bother to stay Catholic. I did just want to make one more comment - earlier I made a post about not liking what a bunch of men came up with to put down - I should have been more clear - I don’t like it when a group of men, no matter how Holy, get together and make decisions for situations which none of them will ever be able to experience. And that’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. Thank you for all your posts - but I think this one has gone on long enough - continue it if you want.

The problem is relativism. Certain actions are always evil, no matter the intent or circumstances. This used to be self evident. But today we are so clouded by illicit behavior, hedonism, and much else we cannot reason morally as well.

 

[mlchance]

Was I sad it had to happen that way? Sure. Do I feel guilt over it? NO WAY!

That strikes me as very sad indeed. You chose to kill an unborn child. Put aside questions of that action’s morality. One is not unreasonable to think that feelings of guilt ought to occur.

…but it’s seems that many of you would rather be rid of those of us that think an abortion is O.K. in certain circumstances.

Perhaps that’s true, but I’d rather you be reconciled to the Church than leave her.

I’m close to wondering if I should even bother to stay Catholic.

If nothing else should raise a huge red flag to indicate that you have indeed chosen a wrong course of action and belief, it is this last statement of yours quoted above. Sin separates us from God and the community of the saints, and here you are wondering if you should turn your back on the Eucharist rather than humbly submit to the teachings of Christ’s Church.

I will pray for you.

– Mark L. Chance.

 

[mapleoak]

I am fully aware of what is now taught - are all of you aware that there are millions of Catholics who believe that in a situation like mine that a choice should be able to be made?

The number of people who disagree with Church teaching, no matter how great, does not make the Church wrong.

There are associations such as Catholics for Choice and multiple other organizations in multiple countries where Catholics band together because they feel that they’re not zealously 100% against abortion.

These associations are in defiance and in opposition to the Church and promulgate heretical teachings.

I used to think I was pro life - and I am against abortion most of the time, but it’s seems that many of you would rather be rid of those of us that think an abortion is O.K. in certain circumstances.

We do not wish to get rid of anyone, only to instruct in the Truth, not water it down or teach something false in order to keep from turning people away. That does nothing to help save souls, but is only interested in not hurting feelings.

many considered themselves like me to be pro life except in a few circumstances - now it’s been made clear that unless we’re 100% zealots who believe that there is no possible situation on earth where an abortion might be a right thing to do - that we’re not wanted in your “camp”.

That the Church is 100% against abortion in all circumstances has nothing to do with whether you are wanted or not. It is only a truth necessary for salvation. People who disagree with Church teaching need only renounce their disbelief and repent. The Church is a hospital for sinners, not a hotel for saints.

I’m glad that all of you don’t make up ALL of the Catholic Church - if so, you would Loose a lot of membership - I’m close to wondering if I should even bother to stay Catholic.

St John 6:61 - Many therefore of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard; and who can hear it?
.
.
.
St John 6:67 - After this, many of his%between% went back and walked no more with him.

I did just want to make one more comment - earlier I made a post about not liking what a bunch of men came up with to put down - I should have been more clear - I don’t like it when a group of men, no matter how Holy, get together and make decisions for situations which none of them will ever be able to experience.

Once again, argument not based on objectiveness or reason. I haven’t been aborted nor do know what it is like to kill, yet I am against abortion, whether committed by man or woman. The Church, no matter how much you dislike men and their decisions, will never say it is okay for a woman to kill her child just because they will never be able to experience an abortion.

 

[Biggie]

Mapleoak, yours is a powerful and pointed reply worth reading twice.

 

[GodLovesTheSpek]

Those enslaved to Lies by The Liar have been very clever by cloaking murder as something that is being taken away and playing on the sin of greed. Enslaved and deceived people don’t want their so-called “choice” taken away and grasp furiously to keep it. They covet it and hold on to it with the clutch of a miser.

Some call it “abortion” or “termination” and in doing so remove humanity from the process. Some call it “liberal thinking” shrewdly evoking the word “liberty” as if being set free. The Liar has done its work by associating liberty with murder and making it seem the same.

How ironic that the leader of an enslaved people would enslave others by embracing murder in the name of freedom.

May God have mercy on our souls.

 

[Mike_Searson]

I would lay down my life to protect a stranger’s child.

I can’t imagine a parent who would not give their life so that their child may live.

Some people will wonder why the basement is so warm.

 

[magdelaine]

If nothing else should raise a huge red flag to indicate that you have indeed chosen a wrong course of action and belief, it is this last statement of yours quoted above. Sin separates us from God and the community of the saints, and here you are wondering if you should turn your back on the Eucharist rather than humbly submit to the teachings of Christ’s Church.

I will pray for you.

Amen :byzsoc:

 

[Bass]

TRuly, I am happy for you and your child and I’m really glad it worked out. At the time, I was pretty much hanging on by a thread and my husband got to make the decision - the one we had said we decided we would make and I’m glad he did.
Many of you seem to think that I should feel guilty because I chose to live - the fetus was hanging on by a thread and so was I - it was either going to be both of us or the fetus gone. To me, afterwords, there was no question - not to my husband and later on not to me. Was I sad it had to happen that way? Sure. Do I feel guilt over it? NO WAY!
It’s like all of you seem to think that just because a woman has an abortion she’s going to feel all this guilt - that simply is NOT true for every situation. I know there are tons that have gone with the silent no more thing and the Rachel’s Vinyard thing. I am fully aware of what is now taught - are all of you aware that there are millions of Catholics who believe that in a situation like mine that a choice should be able to be made? There are associations such as Catholics for Choice and multiple other organizations in multiple countries where Catholics band together because they feel that they’re not zealously 100% against abortion. I used to think I was pro life - and I am against abortion most of the time, but it’s seems that many of you would rather be rid of those of us that think an abortion is O.K. in certain circumstances. If everyone here seems to feel (except for the multiple people that have PMed or e-mailed me showing their support - some are just edgy about coming out on here and saying that they understand and agree but they don’t want to be fought with with a group of people who have little if any interest in the other side) - many considered themselves like me to be pro life except in a few circumstances - now it’s been made clear that unless we’re 100% zealots who believe that there is no possible situation on earth where an abortion might be a right thing to do - that we’re not wanted in your “camp”. I’m glad that all of you don’t make up ALL of the Catholic Church - if so, you would Loose a lot of membership - I’m close to wondering if I should even bother to stay Catholic. I did just want to make one more comment - earlier I made a post about not liking what a bunch of men came up with to put down - I should have been more clear - I don’t like it when a group of men, no matter how Holy, get together and make decisions for situations which none of them will ever be able to experience. And that’s my opinion and I’m sticking to it. Thank you for all your posts - but I think this one has gone on long enough - continue it if you want.

i haven’t read all of your comments, but did read few. i think i know where you are coming from. if that was me and the doctor said we have 10 seconds, its either the baby or the mom, my response will be if you can’t save both at the same time, save the mom then the baby. but it really have to be a sure thing not it could be dangerous or you may have complications and so forth. my wife almost died because she was bleeding so much to the point she fainted while in the hospital, and they had to give her 3 pints of blood, and they tilted her body upside down so the blood can flow to the brain, and finally the doctor said if we can’t clean her up now she will go. but I also new that with all that bleeding the baby was gone, but even I wasn’t sure (no one can’t be sure) i would have said save the mom. because what good is it if both die and leave ten children without mom? I sympathize with you, but then again the situation has to be similar to mine. And this is the ONLY situation I believe we have to choose mom. no other is justified.

 

[bullfrog654]

you may consider your selves children backed in a corner i regret that but i also realize your children of light or children of god. dont understand perhaps the power of the word of god is over welming. but in those times god is near perhaps your backed in a corner or some because your in trials and tribulation

 

[jkpreece]

TRuly, I am happy for you and your child and I’m really glad it worked out. At the time, I was pretty much hanging on by a thread and my husband got to make the decision - the one we had said we decided we would make and I’m glad he did.
Many of you seem to think that I should feel guilty because I chose to live - the fetus was hanging on by a thread and so was I - it was either going to be both of us or the fetus gone.

but the problem is that this is never necissary! The doctor lied. I’m sorry that this happend to you, but some doctors do this to protect themselves from being sued.

most doctors agree that in our day of excellent medical care, abortion is simply not necessary to save the life of the mother.

 

[Elizabeth502]

]but the problem is that this is never necissary! The doctor lied. I’m sorry that this happend to you, but some doctors do this to protect themselves from being sued.

Are you a medical doctor? And even if you are, no medical doctor would make a judgment about another professional’s medical opinion without the intimate, immediate medical facts of that situation. That is unprofessional.

However, I’m glad that at least you put something in the passive voice (“happened to you”). My point exactly. Suppose for a moment ryecroft was indeed “lied to” or given wrong medical facts or likely outcomes. She would therefore be without sin in her judgment, having limited or distorted knowledge from which to make a moral decision. Full knowledge is one of the essential ingredients of sin. Another essential ingredient is full consent of the will. People in life-and-death and emergency situations are, as someone else put it, “backed into a corner” often and are making their best desperate choice in an emotionally charged & impassioned situation.

Not a single person on CAF is in any position to judge whether ryecroft sinned. She (& people in similar situations) may herself not even know clearly and may always question her decision, despite whatever limited knowledge or belief she had at the time. The entire question of particular moral culpability or absence of it is a matter for the jurisdiction and discussion between the OP’s informed conscience at the time of the decision, God, and whatever ordained Catholic authority IRL she has sought.

Every real sin is particular and circumstantial, given that 3 elements must be present. That is not relativism. That is the doctrine of the RCC. People who have condemned her or tried to shame her need to get some education and stop persecuting this woman whom you do not know and whose heart and mind only God can read.

ryecroft, may be the peace of Christ which surpasses all human understanding be with you and remain with you this sacred Triduum.
Sincerely,
E.

 

[magdelaine]

Elizabeth502, Of course we can’t speak to the culpability of the OP or her husband in the abortion of their child. However, she is saying “since I had to have an abortion”, a) the abortion was not wrong and b) abortion should be legal. Obviously, for a Catholic this is problematical to say the least.

 

[Mike_Searson]

Are you a medical doctor? And even if you are, no medical doctor would make a judgment about another professional’s medical opinion without the intimate, immediate medical facts of that situation. That is unprofessional.

However, I’m glad that at least you put something in the passive voice (“happened to you”). My point exactly. Suppose for a moment ryecroft was indeed “lied to” or given wrong medical facts or likely outcomes. She would therefore be without sin in her judgment, having limited or distorted knowledge from which to make a moral decision. Full knowledge is one of the essential ingredients of sin. Another essential ingredient is full consent of the will. People in life-and-death and emergency situations are, as someone else put it, “backed into a corner” often and are making their best desperate choice in an emotionally charged & impassioned situation.

Not a single person on CAF is in any position to judge whether ryecroft sinned. She (& people in similar situations) may herself not even know clearly and may always question her decision, despite whatever limited knowledge or belief she had at the time. The entire question of particular moral culpability or absence of it is a matter for the jurisdiction and discussion between the OP’s informed conscience at the time of the decision, God, and whatever ordained Catholic authority IRL she has sought.

Every real sin is particular and circumstantial, given that 3 elements must be present. That is not relativism. That is the doctrine of the RCC. People who have condemned her or tried to shame her need to get some education and stop persecuting this woman whom you do not know and whose heart and mind only God can read.

ryecroft, may be the peace of Christ which surpasses all human understanding be with you and remain with you this sacred Triduum.
Sincerely,
E.

You raise a very good point. For example, if the story as presented is true; she may not have known it was a sin at the time and would therefore not be guilty of committing a sin. However, once made aware that it was a sin, the proper thing to do is go to Confession and receive Absolution, not try to convince herself and others that abortion is not sinful. To do so is scandal.

 

[edwest2]

how do you know the baby can’t think. memory intelect and will are powers of the soul. babies get souls at conception. while i know a lot of stuff, i dont know much about how the soul actually works, i doubt anybody would claim too. but i do think that something that has memory intelect and will can make choices even if we cant intreprt or understand them.

Then you don’t know clear Church teaching and you should not be making guesses here about what other people think or don’t think. Pick up a Catechism, or, if you can’t afford one, look it up online. It’s there. If you’re really confused then get the answers but don’t come here and make assertions that you don’t know are true.

Peace,
Ed

 

[ryecroft]

Bass, please don’t send me PM’s if you’re not going to allow me to respond. I’m tempted to just put it up here but I’m sure that would cause a whole new onslaught.

 

[aggiecatholic05]

Then you don’t know clear Church teaching and you should not be making guesses here about what other people think or don’t think. Pick up a Catechism, or, if you can’t afford one, look it up online. It’s there. If you’re really confused then get the answers but don’t come here and make assertions that you don’t know are true.

Peace,
Ed

nothing i said was a ‘guess’, and i do have, and have read a catechism. and the only assertion i made was that we should err on the side of caution and mercy towards the unborn, and not assume they can’t actively choose life in utero.