The Right to Choose

[Biggie]

Animals may not abort their “babies”, but under many circumstances they kill them after birth. If the pro-life position holds pre- and post-term human life as equally precious, then it certainly must apply here, too, devaluing your argument. If the offense is the same before and after birth for the human being, then it is the same before and after birth for animals. If animal life does not equal human life in value, then your argument that “even animals don’t abort their babies” is null and void.

Limerick

Huh? I’m not getting this. I don’t think much of the probative value of the original observation but conversely I am not following your response. The straightforward response is that there is a difference in kind between animals and human beings. It is precisely for this reason abortion is abhorrent notwithstanding the conduct of the animal kingdom. Animals don’t commit murder. Human beings do.

 

[ryecroft]

I just want to make a comment about the ABC’s you are using. This isn’t just about the Pill being a sin. It’s been deemed wrong because it is bad for your health. If you really care about your health as much as you say you do, you would immediately stop using those pills. The reason you have had so many miscarriages is because of your long term pill-usage! The pill has been linked to multiple miscarriages, ectopic pregnancies, and even breast cancer. Please, I say this because I am concerned for you. One of my sisters has gone through horrible situations because the pill. She has had a miscarriage AND an ectopic pregnancy that could have killed her. Please protect yourself. God bless you

No, the reason I have had miscarriages and problems is not because of the pill - it’s because I have a kidney disease - they don’t like working for me let alone for mysel and a fetus. You really need to know all the facts before you make an assertion like that. And if you look, a recent study came out saying that Doctors had not been able to confirm that the pill was linked to breast cancer - I’ll find the article and not it a bit later. Sorry to hear about your sister, but my situation is completely different, although I do appreciate the concern.

God Bless

 

[mapleoak]

The United States does have laws on this issue. Abortion is currently protected under our laws. The Church’s place is not to design laws.

Who makes laws? People of course. Many of these people comprise the body of the Church known as the Church Militant. Therefore, when these people seek to make and design laws, it is the Church in action in the world. The Church is actively seeking to institute laws which protect the unborn from those who believe it is okay to kill them.

It has had doctrine and dogma in place for two millenia and even further back if one considers the antiquity of Judaism.

Relevance?

Animals may not abort their “babies”, but under many circumstances they kill them after birth.

Animals may do whatever natural law disposes them to do. Has no effect on the immorality of abortion.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

there are some other Christian sects that do not want their people to have abortions - but there are others, preety closely tied to the Catholic church, such as Episcopalians that back a woman’s right to choose - even say its great that women can get abortions for almost any reason.

What other people’s opinion of abortion is doesn’t change the fact that abortion takes the life of an innocent human being.

The Catholic Church is correct on the matter. Instead of insisting that you are correct, that NFP doesn’t work for you, that the only choice for you is ABC and abortion if you do become pregnant.

The Church does not require a mother to die, it does not say, “Too bad, you are having complications, just die.” There are ethical doctors that would do all there is possible to save both.

What you are saying is that your mind is already made up, you’ve already made the decision for future pregnancies. It seems to me that you had made up your mind even before hand for your husband to “choose you because if you died, he couldn’t get another you.”

You don’t seem to want to find another answer. Instead, the Church is wrong.

 

[hawkeye]

And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose

A 1 month, 3 month, 1 year old child ETC; wouldn’t have the ability to choose either, that doesn’t mean it’s ok to murder it.

that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable.

It definitely does require some thinking, and the Church is there to guide, you can end up in hell for this unrepented sin…think about that.

 

[Agatina]

It seems this topic has degenerated to an adversarial back & forth between Ryecroft & others.
Everybody open the Bible & the Catechism. 'Nuf said?
Posted in Love and some frustration

 

[ryecroft]

Says who? Do you have an issue with Catholics exercising their American and Constitutional right to enter the voting both and vote as Catholics?
No matter how hard you try, you will not convince the Church to “get with the times”. It matters not that a bunch of other denominations may think killing the unborn is great and pleasing to God. The Catholic Church will still be holding the Truth, when you are ready to approach it for the correct answer.
Are you saying you are prepared to debate about the inquisition? Be careful! Judging by your comment above, I assure you, it won’t be pretty!

JenluvsU– sorry about the last post I made, I tried to change it but went over 20 minutes. The 2006 study on the link of the pill to breast cancer showed that only those that had familial links to breast cancer appeared to have an increased risk of breast cancer with the pill. In fact they found that the pill helped prevent not only endometrial cancer but also helped prevent ovarian cancer. I really appreciate your concern but we do know the reason of all but 2 of my five miscarriages.

Now, maple –

No, I have no problem with American’s voting – but that was not what I said. I said it was not the place of the Church to make laws for the complete population – I welcome Catholics to come and vote the way the church would like them to, if that’s what they want to do –but wait – it didn’t seem to make a difference how the church wanted Catholics to vote this past election –didn’t the candidates that I believe the church did not want in the White House get in? - In fact having read about it, it’s estimated that somewhere between 48 and 63% of Catholics voted for Obama. If the church wants to support Catholics to get into office I’m sure they have ways of backing them – but wait there are Catholics in office – two of the highest placed Catholics in the US government are Catholic – Pelosi and Biden.
Since I seem to need to explain things to you simply, I’ll continue – my main point was that just because the Catholic Church believes that something should happen, such as taking away the choice of a women to get an abortion (regardless of the circumstances), does not mean that it will be that way. The members of the Catholic Church are welcome to try to change things from within if they choose but America is not a religious state. The world has seen enough of religious states and I thank God that we do not live in one – be it one that is Islamic or be it a Catholic one.

Yes, one of the times I was referring to where the RCC was enforcing their faith/laws (they seemed at times to believe that the two were inseparable in Europe) was the inquisition - and I have absolutely no doubt that being 4 hours away from my masters in Ecclesiastical History, that I could come up with plenty examples and I’m sure you could as well – we could debate nil to forever and in the end, you would still have you opinions and beliefs and so would I. And as I mentioned in a previous post, I hope and pray that when your time is up that the Almighty is not as definite or have as much judgment and righteous indignation as you seem to have – I pray that when you’re in front of the Almighty that he doesn’t decide to judge you with as many dogmatic rules and with such vehemence and lack of caring for the circumstances and situations a person was in at the time. Regarding this, I am not worried because I don’t believe that God is only concerned with the black and white of an issue as some of you on here seem to be – I believe that He understands that situations are not just black and white – they’re grey

and I think that’s it for me on this one

 

[kage_ar]

human being:

you talk about the church supporting laws on stealing and killing, etc and then talk about the church being there for the “guidance to get our souls to heaven and treat people with dignity…” it is not the place of the Roman Catholic Church to make rules or laws for the complete population - they may want to but they are supposed to be dealing with the Catholic population - not the rest of the population who may or may not be be Christian

The Holy Catholic Church (the term “Roman” is a term that was begun as an insult and has been moved into commom use, but, when speaking of the Universalitiy of the Church, it should not be used).

So, the Holy Catholic Church exists to carry on in a physical and spiritual way the work of Christ. God’s laws are above the laws of man, they apply to every man, woman and child. There are many people on this earth who do not recognize the laws of God, or the authority of the Holy Catholic Church, that does not change the fact that the Church, when speaking in matters of Faith and Morals, does protect the “rules” for every man, woman and child on this earth - the complete population belongs to God.

God is the God of everyone and everything or he is not God at all.

-there are some other Christian sects that do not want their people to have abortions - but there are others, preety closely tied to the Catholic church, such as Episcopalians that back a woman’s right to choose - even say its great that women can get abortions for almost any reason. It sounds like you think that the Catholic Church should be able to make the laws or just change the ones they don’t agree with.

People of good faith will make and enforce laws that reflect the laws of God. Those who in ignorance or arrogance disobey God are those we pray for, that they will come to the saving knowledge of God and will return to His Holy Church. Just because someone disagrees with God’s laws does not make those people right.

-We all know what happened during the middle ages when the RCC was able to make and enforce laws - and it was not a pretty picture - fear seemed to be much more prominant in those times rather than love.

As stated by someone else, please back up your assertions with facts. You claim the name Christian, you state you are a Catholic, but, do you know the history of the Church you claim?

 

[stthomas]

Mark77;5052024:

I am truly sorry to hear of your medical condition and you are in my prayers!

Despite the hardship, it is never acceptable to intentionally terminate a babies life (which science has proven beyond any doubt, begins at conception).

The mother’s life should always be valued and protected, while doing everything possible to save the baby too.

If the baby dies, despite the best efforts of the medical experts, then it is a horrible tragedy, but the mother should never be subjected to the decision of abortion and the inevitable life-long guilt of being forced, unnecessarily to choose between herself and her baby.

I’m just curious, why is it that most seem to believe as this poster - that just because you have an abortion regardless of the reasons that you’ll feel guild - as I have said before, it was sad that it was necessary to have to have one but I don’t feel any guilt - not everyone feels this way.

God Bless

Necessary to have an abortion? The Church does not consider any circumstance in which a intentional abortion would be deemed necessary.

 

[stthomas]

Which life does God value and love more? The unborn child or the mother?

There is no difference…we are to live in God’s ways, not by the ways of the world.

 

[mapleoak]

No, I have no problem with American’s voting – but that was not what I said.

Well let’s see. What is this:

it is not the place of the Roman Catholic Church to make rules or laws for the complete population

When the members of the Catholic Church vote on issues according to the teachings of the Church and when those Catholics acting in government according to the teachings of the Church is it not then that the Catholic Church is making rules and laws for the whole of society? Remember the Church Militant is made up of the members of the Church here on Earth. That is a constitutionally protected right. Be assured, even if it wasn’t constitutionally protected, that the Catholic Church and its members would continue to exert its influence on society. Especially when such evils as putting innocent persons to death has the legal blessing of a country.

I said it was not the place of the Church to make laws for the complete population

That can have no other interpretation than that of Catholics should not participate in the political arena. Where members of the Church are and act in accordance with the teachings of the Church, there IS the Church. If you do not like the Church exerting its influence on laws affecting you, you have the ability to vote contrary to Church teaching. However, you do not have that as a moral or absolute right. Rather you have free will to reject the Truth that which the Church teaches.

– I welcome Catholics to come and vote the way the church would like them to, if that’s what they want to do –but wait – it didn’t seem to make a difference how the church wanted Catholics to vote this past election –didn’t the candidates that I believe the church did not want in the White House get in? - In fact having read about it, it’s estimated that somewhere between 48 and 63% of Catholics voted for Obama.

Surely you are desperately trying to reach a conclusion as to what your above statistic means and how it supports your statement that the Church should not act in ways that influence the common good of society.

If the church wants to support Catholics to get into office I’m sure they have ways of backing them – but wait there are Catholics in office – two of the highest placed Catholics in the US government are Catholic – Pelosi and Biden.

Surely you are not allowing yourself to be deceived, are you. From your earlier posts I would have thought you had a rather learned understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches, but were freely choosing to reject the Church’s teaching. Now it appears you are trying to justify your beliefs by holding as examples, those who outright reject the teachings of the Church and claim to be Catholic in name?

Since I seem to need to explain things to you simply, I’ll continue – my main point was that just because the Catholic Church believes that something should happen, such as taking away the choice of a women to get an abortion (regardless of the circumstances), does not mean that it will be that way.

Then you shouldn’t even be concerned when the Church seeks to outlaw abortion, because according to you it won’t happen. Why even bring up the issue of the Church exerting its influence then? We will continue to fight for the unborn, and you can sit back and relax.

 

[human_being]

Actually, the only reason that I used the word “ensouled” was because that was the word that Thomas Aquinas used when he talking about when a pregnancy could end in good consince - granted, we can’t believe everything Aqinas said because he also said that if the woman carried a male, it was “ensouled” at 40 days, if it was a femal then it was “ensouled” at 80 days-they had some interesting ways of thinking back then. But we’re getting away from the actual question - this is legal in the US and many other countries - granted, personally I don’t think it sould be used as a form of birth control, there are far too many other ways and forms of artificial birth control that are much simpler than having an abortion. I just don’t believe that a woman if she does not want to or feels it is not in her best interest should be FORCED to CHOOSE only one way - In China, I don’t believe they should be forced to abort in certain situations - here I don’t feel that anyone has the right to make that decision but the person who is going to have to carry a fetus, pregnancy whatever you want to call it for nine months. I believe that when they die, they will have to explain themselves to God and that is more than enough justice.

I am trying to say that it is all wrong to have one - I believe that there are cases where it is necessary - or has been necessary to have one. Like anything else when time is up on Earth, if you believe in God then you believe that you’ll need to account for your actions. Personally, we’ve had to make the decision and I’m glad we were able to make that choice because I didn’t particularly want to die for the possiblity for a less than 10% chance of both of us making it in one piece. When you’ve dealt with that kind of choice then I think you’re ready to weigh in on saying “I would Never EVER Condone abortion at any time” - if your wife’s organs are petering out because her body can’t handle the extra burdern and you have to decide what to do, then come and tell me that you can say for 100% sure that you would never ever condone it.

And yes, there is a such thing as a Pro Choice Catholic. If you’re going to try to exclude every Catholic who believes that abortion is not allways 100% of the time wrong - for instance medically or for other reasons than you’re going to loose at least 58% of the Catholics (that was from one of the polls - and it was the most lenient -some go as high as 73%)

If you are a Catholic and had an abortion you really should go to confession for it is a mortal sin and your husband/patner should go also. If you call yourself a catholic you do have rules to follow. A magic wand was not tapped on your head that absolved you from all sins throughout life. It is a very tragic and hard decision that you had to make but you should repent and I’m sure you’ll be granted absolution, if you have not already done so. We do have rules. I would hope that you still believe that you need to be absolved by a priest. The path of the Catholic Church seems to me to be to somehow persevere towards Chritlike perfection. I think that the church has canonized women who have chosen to have their babies in similar situations as yourself. I am far from a saint and may disagree with some things but I didnot create the Church and it is not a Democracy (thank God). Pope John Paul II went to confession every week and I must go also. And I would think alot of people should go more often to get a little closer to the Lord. The Church has existed over 2000 years.Is it the longest existing gov’t on earth? Anyways sometimes,oft times they are wiser than us.

 

[human_being]

If you are a Catholic and had an abortion you really should go to confession for it is a mortal sin and your husband/patner should go also. If you call yourself a catholic you do have rules to follow. A magic wand was not tapped on your head that absolved you from all sins throughout life. It is a very tragic and hard decision that you had to make but you should repent and I’m sure you’ll be granted absolution, if you have not already done so. We do have rules. I would hope that you still believe that you need to be absolved by a priest. The path of the Catholic Church seems to me to be to somehow persevere towards Chritlike perfection. I think that the church has canonized women who have chosen to have their babies in similar situations as yourself. I am far from a saint and may disagree with some things but I didnot create the Church and it is not a Democracy (thank God). Pope John Paul II went to confession every week and I must go also. And I would think alot of people should go more often to get a little closer to the Lord. The Church has existed over 2000 years.Is it the longest existing gov’t on earth? Anyways sometimes,oft times they are wiser than us.

The Church will live without us but what will become of us without the Church.in referance to losing numbers of catholics who are pro-choice or disagree withany other major church teachings. It’s up to us wether we want to sin or not but we better get to confession before our last day if we have any mortal sins on our souls.

 

[human_being]

I hope that you don’t think I should have the right to choose to murder you. Why should we have the right to choose to murder our children? Just because we can’t see them yet? I don’t understand this. Babies of the same gestational age are carefully birthed and cared for in a NICU or torn apart within their mother’s wombs because of whether or not they are wanted. Doesn’t there seem to be something profoundly wrong with this? As a Catholic, can you imagine that there is anyone out there that God doesn’t want? Have you looked at pictures of abortion? If you haven’t, you should before you decide that you should still be pro choice.

I can provide you links if you want.

If saw a person kick a pregnant dog in the stomach I would see it as wrong and immoral and ugly. It wouldn’t matter to me if the dog or puppy had a soul or not nor would I need to know what day of the soul maturing stage it may or may not be in it is still ugly and wrong. How complicated must life be.Do we not know what is wrong?

 

[human_being]

I don’t know the computer that well and sometimes my quotes end up at the wrong places. Sorry.

 

[human_being]

How do you do that ? block in and comment to just a part of someones quote? Hit quote and do what? Not just type I guess?

 

[Carlion]

How do you do that

Hit “quote” and it brings you to the normal message box for you to type in. At the top will be the text of the person being quoted between HTML tags used for quotation. You type your response under that.

If you only want to quote part of the post, just delete the stuff you don’t want in the block quote.

 

[Carlion]

As a convert, here is what I don’t get. If you’re already a member of the Church, but you can’t in good faith agree with this doctrine or that one, then why would you remain at the Church and stir up trouble, rather than just choose a denomination that you’re conscience is more comfortable with?

I was Protestant, and most recently part of an Episcopalian parish, and when I couldn’t in good faith agree anymore with what I heard, I decided I had to leave, and from there I began on the road to Catholicism. But I never would have gone through the process of reception/confirmation if there was anything I took issue with in the Catholic faith. I heartily agree with everything the Church teaches, and that’s why I’m here.

I think its ridiculous to try and change the Church. It is what it is, and it will only change as the Holy Spirit, through the bishops and Rome, wills it to change.

These arguments always feel like watching Derek Jeter suddenly decide he takes issue with running bases, so he demands MLB change the rules, but until they do he’ll continue to stand there defiantly, sneering at the rest of the Yankees. What’s the point? You don’t like running bases, then why are you in the ballpark?

 

[redrosetea]

I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.

WE never have the right to murder…it is forbidden in the 10 commandments…What you refer to as choice is the choice of murdering another human being…How would like like someone to arbitrarily decide to snuff you out just because they could?

 

[stina2bina]

I’m really having a hard time with this abortion thing - I have read so many things regarding it on here, with the bioethics link - and gone back and seen where a fetus was not ensouled untile 40th day or 80th day and where there begins to be variations on Catholic belief. God gave each of us the right TO CHOOSE: Why is it that Catholics (and yes I am one - even though I’m pro-choice in most circumstances) - want to take the ability to choose freely away from someone. And please don’t give the argument that “the fetus doesn’t get to choose…” because we all know the fetus or baby has no ability to choose - that requires cognitive thinking - of which they are not capable. I am not trying to cause a storm of responses with this - I really just want to know, with most other things - we seem happy to let people choose - but as Catholics most seem to want to stop people from having that ability to choose. I suppose if abortion did ever become illegal, which I seriously doubt it ever will in all cases, people would still be making a choice - it would just be delegated to the richer people who could afford a private doctor to deal with it or take a plane to another country where it was legal - the poor would be left to back door shops where they could wind up getting sick from the proceedure and die. Is it that most people are out for there to be some kind of punishment on Earth for those that go ahead with an abortion instead of allowing God to judge at the end? And if somehow abortion does become legal what’s going to be next, trying to get contreception outlawed? I used to think, (when I was much younger) it would be neat if we were all Catholic, but now I’m glad we’re not because I could see our lives and sex lives becoming something that was studied to see if we were living according to a book of rules - and taking away even more choice. I hope it never becomes that way because it sounds much like China just to the other extreme.

I will pray for you, and I will also pray that you do not take this view to other women and cause them to seek abortions. As a former fetus, I am Pro-Life. My mother had no right to choose what happened to MY body. Luckily, she understood that and I was able to develop into a baby, toddler, child and adult.

You cannot be Catholic and Pro-Choice, I truly, TRULY believe this.