The Right to Choose

[limerick]

As a convert, here is what I don’t get. If you’re already a member of the Church, but you can’t in good faith agree with this doctrine or that one, then why would you remain at the Church and stir up trouble, rather than just choose a denomination that you’re conscience is more comfortable with?

I was Protestant, and most recently part of an Episcopalian parish, and when I couldn’t in good faith agree anymore with what I heard, I decided I had to leave, and from there I began on the road to Catholicism. But I never would have gone through the process of reception/confirmation if there was anything I took issue with in the Catholic faith. I heartily agree with everything the Church teaches, and that’s why I’m here.

I think its ridiculous to try and change the Church. It is what it is, and it will only change as the Holy Spirit, through the bishops and Rome, wills it to change.

These arguments always feel like watching Derek Jeter suddenly decide he takes issue with running bases, so he demands MLB change the rules, but until they do he’ll continue to stand there defiantly, sneering at the rest of the Yankees. What’s the point? You don’t like running bases, then why are you in the ballpark?

Carlion,

You hereby confirm my impression that within Catholicism it is strictly forbidden to ask for elucidation on any dogmatic or doctrinal point. A Catholic is bound to suck it up and accept every teaching of the Church or suffer banishment as a hopeless heretic. How is anyone supposed to learn anything with these parameters in place? As a convert, *you of *all people should understand and appreciate the duty to question.

This is what** I** don’t get: Since when is exploring the teachings of the Church “stirring up trouble”? Is the point to simply “be comfortable with” the Church’s teachings? If every poster on this forum claims to be comfortable with Catholic dogma and doctrine, then what we have here is a group that is challenged by being completely truthful.

I’m seeing increasing numbers of poor examples of practicing Catholics here, and I do not mean those who come to gain insight or who are struggling to understand their faith. I am no longer a practicing Catholic, but I find responses to these folks pathetic and sad. It means the pool is contaminated and no one is carrying the message. Either pull yourselves up by your spiritual bootstraps and educate without judging, or step aside and nurse your threatened spiritual selves.

Limerick

 

[human_being]

Hit “quote” and it brings you to the normal message box for you to type in. At the top will be the text of the person being quoted between HTML tags used for quotation. You type your response under that.

If you only want to quote part of the post, just delete the stuff you don’t want in the block quote.

Thank you.

 

[mapleoak]

This is what** I** don’t get: Since when is exploring the teachings of the Church “stirring up trouble”?

You are mistaken. Exploring the teachings of the Church are exactly what we are called to do. To increase our understanding.
What we are not to do is reject the teachings of the Church. For example, claiming “I disagree with the Church when it says abortion is a grave moral disorder.” and “I choose what to be true that which I choose to call true”. That is not exploring the teachings of the Church.

 

[limerick]

You are mistaken. Exploring the teachings of the Church are exactly what we are called to do. To increase our understanding.
What we are not to do is reject the teachings of the Church. For example, claiming “I disagree with the Church when it says abortion is a grave moral disorder.” and “I choose what to be true that which I choose to call true”. That is not exploring the teachings of the Church.

The “stirring up trouble” was a quote from Carlion’s post previous to mine. I agree - questioning and searching should NOT be regarded as “stirring up trouble”. Therefore, I am not mistaken.

Abortion is not an order or disorder. It is an action. What may or may not be disordered is the spiritual condition that results in a woman seeking and procuring an abortion.

Please note that the original poster began by saying she was having difficulty with the abortion issue. Does that look like an opening to any of you to share practicable doctrine with her? This is MY issue with contemporary Catholicism. You don’t seem to want to guide the way back - you just want to tell the straying soul that he or she is “doin’ it wrong” and there will be a heavy price to pay for such self-centeredness.

In exploring the teachings of the Church, some individuals find a particular teaching distasteful, impossible to enact in their own lives, or just plain ridiculous. This does not preclude them from ever finding their way. The true Catholic’s job is to light the way, not extinguish anyone’s desire to explore Catholicism further. And, yes, some will never settle on teachings regarding artificial birth control or abortion or homosexuality or ANY sexuality as taught by the Church. In that case, although they may call themselves Catholics, they are in fact not Catholics. I don’t understand how their failure to grasp the rigors of the faith reflects on anyone else. Are you afraid they will prosletyze without a firm foothold and a new generation of not-so-Catholic Catholics will arise? I wonder how much of this has transpired in the 2,000 years since Christ walked the earth. Or is it universally true that man is man, full of vanity and imperfection, and no matter how he tries he cannot adequately and consistently carry the message of Jesus while being so devoid of humility?

Limerick

Oh, dear. I’m sure I’m “doin’ it wrong”. Just send me the bill.

Limerick

 

[human_being]

The “stirring up trouble” was a quote from Carlion’s post previous to mine. I agree - questioning and searching should NOT be regarded as “stirring up trouble”. Therefore, I am not mistaken.

Abortion is not an order or disorder. It is an action. What may or may not be disordered is the spiritual condition that results in a woman seeking and procuring an abortion.

Please note that the original poster began by saying she was having difficulty with the abortion issue. Does that look like an opening to any of you to share practicable doctrine with her? This is MY issue with contemporary Catholicism. You don’t seem to want to guide the way back - you just want to tell the straying soul that he or she is “doin’ it wrong” and there will be a heavy price to pay for such self-centeredness.

In exploring the teachings of the Church, some individuals find a particular teaching distasteful, impossible to enact in their own lives, or just plain ridiculous. This does not preclude them from ever finding their way. The true Catholic’s job is to light the way, not extinguish anyone’s desire to explore Catholicism further. And, yes, some will never settle on teachings regarding artificial birth control or abortion or homosexuality or ANY sexuality as taught by the Church. In that case, although they may call themselves Catholics, they are in fact not Catholics. I don’t understand how their failure to grasp the rigors of the faith reflects on anyone else. Are you afraid they will prosletyze without a firm foothold and a new generation of not-so-Catholic Catholics will arise? I wonder how much of this has transpired in the 2,000 years since Christ walked the earth. Or is it universally true that man is man, full of vanity and imperfection, and no matter how he tries he cannot adequately and consistently carry the message of Jesus while being so devoid of humility?

Limerick

Oh, dear. I’m sure I’m “doin’ it wrong”. Just send me the bill.

Limerick

So what wold YOU tell her?

 

[JanetF]

Doctors have been wrong before and could have been wrong again. We don’t know for sure that the mother will die if she proceeds with the pregnancy, we can only guess. God usually gives us a cross to bear so that we can learn from it…

I find it selfish on the part of the husband that he wouldn’t want to raise children without her. Why not? The children are still a blessing from God, that doesn’t change. God will be there to help him raise those children. Hopefully so would a family and support system that the father would build. How many children out there were raised well by widowed fathers, and are glad their dad didn’t say, pooh, I can’t do this without the mom, so let’s kill the baby because mom MIGHT die.

There is no grey area with respect to abortion. It is killing a child. It is ALWAYS an intrinsic evil.

 

[Dchsknight]

Just a Note, you can not be Pro-Choice and Catholic at the same time. Our Pope and Earthly Leader says, Accept all of it our Get out. Our Faith come From Jesus Himself and even he said, Lead not anyone of these little Ones astray, for it would be better for Him(The one doing the leading) to tie a mill stone around his neck and leap into the ocean, then to stand on judgment day.

I am about to do something that God warns against and i am well aware of what will happen to me and I Hope to God I am judged like I am about to. I believe that People who choose(Unrepentant) and support Abortion, will go straight to he.ll. But not before Christ hands you over to the Guardian Angels of the children that are aborted and Mur.dered.

I believe that when we Abort Children we don’t just grieve the heart of God and the Heart of Mary, we grieve the ones sent to this Earth to guard and watch over the little ones. God have mercy on you when you meet them.

And may God Judge me on this matter the same way I judge people who get abortions and support them. If I am the cause of or ever Support an abortion, I will jump in the Fiery pit my self… and what is so bad and i pray for forgiveness everyday, I used to accept Contraception, which is the Same as Abortion. And May God have mercy on me a Sinning man for supporting an evil thing like Contraception.

 

[Carlion]

You are mistaken. Exploring the teachings of the Church are exactly what we are called to do. To increase our understanding.
What we are not to do is reject the teachings of the Church. For example, claiming “I disagree with the Church when it says abortion is a grave moral disorder.” and “I choose what to be true that which I choose to call true”. That is not exploring the teachings of the Church.

That’s exactly what I meant. Should’ve chosen a better way to say it, but that’s what I meant

 

[limerick]

So what wold YOU tell her?

I would ask her if she wanted the straight Catholic party line or if she wanted to know what my beliefs are.

I’m capable of disseminating both.

It would depend on her response to the question.

Limerick

 

[vames]

Our Pope and Earthly Leader says, Accept all of it our Get out.

Then what is the fate of Hans Küng or the Portuguese bishops who recently defended contraception as a means to stop STDs? They didn’t “get out”, nor were “kicked out”.

 

[lumenorientale]

You’re implying that someone needs to go to confession because they have an opinion??? that’s ridiculous - If I have an opinion and don’t do anything else regarding it - how can that be sinful? .

No, not opinions. We need to go to confession for disobedience. You are hardening your heart against one of the most important of God’s Laws: Thou shalt not kill. If someone came to you and said “I want to have an abortion,” would you say “that’s okay, go ahead. In fact, I’ll drive you to the clinic.” That would be even worse disobedience. Confess your disobedience, pray to God to open your eyes. Abortion is murder, not a choice.

 

[Elizabeth502]

No, not opinions. We need to go to confession for disobedience. You are hardening your heart against one of the most important of God’s Laws: Thou shalt not kill. If someone came to you and said “I want to have an abortion,” would you say “that’s okay, go ahead. In fact, I’ll drive you to the clinic.” That would be even worse disobedience. Confess your disobedience, pray to God to open your eyes. Abortion is murder, not a choice.

You did not answer the questions you quoted. You answered different questions that she did not ask.

Even Fr. Corapi says very clearly that having a different opinion is not a sin, merely acting on that. Ryecroft has been clear that she had done nothing like advocate or recommend abortion to another, let alone drive someone to a clinic.

 

[ryecroft]

I don’t know if it’s going to do any good to write this, as this thread seems to have taken on a life of its’ own - and many of the posts are making me feel backed into a corner.
I originally wrote this thread not to have a debate about abortion being right or wrong - I wrote the original post because I was truely hoping that someone could give me some knowledge to understand why I was being told different things by different people - including Priests and also some Catholic magazine articles as well as some of what I had learned while working on my degree. Personally, I don’t want to go by the Cathecism - I would prefer to know not just what someone decided be it apologist, Bishop etc. I would prefer to go by what was decided prior to 1994 given a Biblical stance and what had been taught. I made a comment about not wanting to hear what a bunch of “men” said about the subject - which cause problems unto itself - I do kind of wish I hadn’t said that because of what was brought up - but I hope at least some of you can understand that it’s difficult for me to be dictated to by those that will never know the feelings and physical ardor that go along with being pregnant and being a mother.
I had hoped that perhaps asking the question would give me some insight I had not experienced. Instead I’ve basically been told - abortion is worng accept it, have no other opinion or your not Catholic - I was also told that medical situations which had occured to me could not have happened and that my doctors lied to me and possibly my husband. Unfortunately, after all of this, I’m still no closer to understanding how a pregnancy just a 4 months that was going to cause the mother to expire if it continued was wrong to stop if in the end there would have been death for both the pregnancy and the mother. Also, I guess I just don’t understand how if it believed there are 2 lives - the life of the mother and that of the fetus than how can you value one above the other? Believe me, I have prayed on this and read quite a bit and read, but how can valuing one’s life be a sin? How is it different for the mother to die to save the pregnancy (which would not have happened in this case - had the situation continued, the mother would have died (me) and the pregnancy would have ended. No one wins in that situation - and had I told them to take out the fetus, it could not have lived at just 16 weeks outside of me - I just don’t understand how saving one’s self can be wrong a sad situation but not wrong.Unfortunately, as I said, I’m no closer to understanding this than I was when I was pregnant. Thanks to those of you that tried to help. And for those that condemed me - I really hope that you’re not judged the way you’ve judged me. Perhaps some of you are right - perhaps since I can’t seem to get my opinions in exact line with the RCC’s views on this topic, perhaps I should just stop being Catholic and go with another denomination.
Thank you for your time.
I did want to not something that is on this forum - I found it on up a notch

God Bless

A Tragic—but Moral—Choice

But what if the hypothetical patient is pregnant? Her pregnancy is only a few weeks along, but her uterine cancer is extremely progressed. She needs to be treated as soon as possible if she is to have any chance of survival.

As the doctor, you now have two patients—the mother and her unborn child. Your duty and desire is to preserve the life and health of each of them. What do you do? If you do not remove the mother’s cancer, she will die very soon. At this stage in the baby’s development, it is entirely dependent upon the mother for life. If the mother is not treated and dies, the baby will die, too. You will lose both patients. But the only way to save her life is to remove her uterus, home to a developing person who will die as a result of the operation.

This is a tragic situation to which a moral solution must be found. If the doctor believes that the mother can survive long enough to carry the baby until it is viable—that is, until it can live on its own outside the womb with medical assistance—then the mother may choose to risk her own life to save the life of her child. Even though it may mean decreasing her chances of survival, she may choose to postpone treatment of her cancer.

If the progression of the cancer will not allow for that option, and the mother needs surgery immediately if she is going to live, you, as her doctor, have only two choices: You can allow both patients to die or you can save one and lose the other. The moral choice is to save the mother.

The principle of double effect applies: (1) Your intention is to perform a good—to save the mother’s life by removing her cancerous uterus. The evil effect of causing the death of the baby is not desired. It is a very sad and unfortunate result of the good act. (2) The evil effect does not cause the good result. You are removing a diseased organ that is killing the mother, not performing an abortion. The baby will die during or shortly after the operation, but the purpose of the operation is not to kill the child. (3) Two very grave matters must be weighed against each other. Saving one person is better than allowing both to die through inaction, even though it means the death of one.

{

 

[mapleoak]

You did not answer the questions you quoted. You answered different questions that she did not ask.

Even Fr. Corapi says very clearly that having a different opinion is not a sin, merely acting on that. Ryecroft has been clear that she had done nothing like advocate or recommend abortion to another, let alone drive someone to a clinic.

As has already been pointed out, questioning to learn or seek understanding of Church teaching is an entirely different animal than knowing Church teaching and flat out rejecting it. Take for example:

I have studied the teachings of the “magisterium” and read information ad nausium - I’m clear on what the teachings are

 

[ryecroft]

As has already been pointed out, questioning to learn or seek understanding of Church teaching is an entirely different animal than knowing Church teaching and flat out rejecting it. Take for example:

The above do not represent someone seeking knowledge to better ones understanding of Church teaching. Rather the knowledge of Church teaching is already known, instead the choice is made to reject that teaching. The following illustrates this perfectly:

Maple -
Goodness, it must be really nice knowing that you’re right about everything everytime. You state an opinion and it must be nice to stand in judgement over all of us that are obviously not as giftted and enlightened as you are. I thought that this forum was here to try to understand or get answers - I guess you’re so enlightened that you have no more questions - I bet God will sure be glad to see you when you die, then you can instruct Him on the dogma of the Church and how no matter what, He shouldn’t consider anyone’s circumstances - just look at what was done and if it went against Church teaching. It’s because of people like you that I’ll we’ll most likely be taking the family to another Church.

Go back to my original question - then follow it through - I originally began this to try to understand - then when I was told over and over again - it’s wrong no matter what - and began feeling backed into a corner that’s when I began answering the questions - perhaps I shouldn’t have. All I seemed to get was " it’s wrong it’s wrong it’s wrong - " that wasn’t why I came on here to hear- I’ve already heard that opinion quite a bit - but I’ve also heard many different things from different priests, Bishops, Catholic articles -(even look at the one I found on here - quoted from it in my previous thread at the end) - I really was trying to understand it - I just can not understand why the Church would ever teach that it would rather have two people dead than one person live. Instead of having it explained to me, all I’ve gotten is “it’s wrong, no matter what, always wrong, there’s no case where it could ever not be wrong - accept it or you’re not really a Catholic…” I just honestly can’t believe that if Christ were here and able to talk to me about this face to face that he would say, yes I want both of you to die for some greater good. IMHO, having two die instead of just one is more a culture of death than saying that one can live but the other die.

• but thanks for helping lead the thread towards condmnation instead of understanding- it sucked that I had to go through that situation and I wish it had been different that I hadn’t gotten sick - I just can’t believe that Christ would say, I’m sorry, but you and your fetus are both going to have to die to prove a point -that’s not the God I’ve known as a God of love - say what you want, (and let’s face it, you obviously will) - you obviously have to have the last word in.

 

[stthomas]

I will pray for you, and I will also pray that you do not take this view to other women and cause them to seek abortions. As a former fetus, I am Pro-Life. My mother had no right to choose what happened to MY body. Luckily, she understood that and I was able to develop into a baby, toddler, child and adult.

You cannot be Catholic and Pro-Choice, I truly, TRULY believe this.

Amen Stina, Catholics need to get a faith makeover and learn what the Church teaches. I pray for all those who have had abortions and are trying with all their might to erase their guilt. God forgives all of our sins if we only humble ourselves before him, ask for his forgiveness and then do what he tells us. “Go and sin no more”

 

[Sapphire_Dragon]

Hi Ryecroft

I originally wrote this thread not to have a debate about abortion being right or wrong - I wrote the original post because I was truely hoping that someone could give me some knowledge to understand why I was being told different things by different people - including Priests and also some Catholic magazine articles as well as some of what I had learned while working on my degree.

There are numerous Catholics who don’t profess the Church’s teaching, and who would write such articles and give advice contrary to the Church’s teaching. But the Catholic belief is that the Church is protected from teaching error. That does not mean that all priests and laymen are protected from falling into error, but that the official teachings of the Church, approved by the successor of Peter, cannot be in error. The catechism contains those teachings that we can be sure aren’t in error. On the issue of abortion, the teaching of the Catholic Church is that it is wrong.

(This site has numerous articles discussing that: catholic.com/library/church_papacy.asp)

I would prefer to know not just what someone decided be it apologist, Bishop etc. I would prefer to go by what was decided prior to 1994 given a Biblical stance and what had been taught. I made a comment about not wanting to hear what a bunch of “men” said about the subject - which cause problems unto itself - I do kind of wish I hadn’t said that because of what was brought up - but I hope at least some of you can understand that it’s difficult for me to be dictated to by those that will never know the feelings and physical ardor that go along with being pregnant and being a mother.

Maybe this article could help: catholic.com/library/Abortion.asp

I can understand what you mean. It feels like people who can’t understand are making life and death decisions for you.
But… I don’t think that is the right way of looking at it. Men also care about their wives’ or female relatives’ lives… So I don’t think their opinions can be viewed as entirely out-of-place or unfair.
And if bishops teach it, if it is declared wrong by the pope, then that is an assurance to Catholics that the teaching is approved by God.

Unfortunately, after all of this, I’m still no closer to understanding how a pregnancy just a 4 months that was going to cause the mother to expire if it continued was wrong to stop if in the end there would have been death for both the pregnancy and the mother.

When people have been saying that your doctors “lied” to you, they were trying to emphasize that doctors can’t know for sure what is going to happen. It’s possible that they were right… That the mother and the child would both die. But they can’t be sure, is all they were saying. And some people who responded were children who doctors were sure would die.

It’s a “Do the ends justify the means” argument I suppose: No end can justify doing something wrong. As nice as it sounds to be able to save at least one person out of a seemingly hopeless situation, intentionally taking one’s life is not an option to achieving that.

Also, I guess I just don’t understand how if it believed there are 2 lives - the life of the mother and that of the fetus than how can you value one above the other?

Couldn’t the same question be asked of a pro-abortionist? How can you value the life of a mother over that of a baby? The Catholic teaching is that an unborn baby is still a baby, it is still a living human being with a soul. It is not valuing either one’s life. It values both of them. It would not support killing the mother to save the child. It would not support killing the child to save the mother. The teaching here is that it is wrong to kill.

No one wins in that situation - and had I told them to take out the fetus, it could not have lived at just 16 weeks outside of me - I just don’t understand how saving one’s self can be wrong a sad situation but not wrong.

There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect one’s own life. Not at all! But abortion crosses a line: It is sinning to save your life, taking another’s life to save your own. If that person is trying kill you, like a person attacking you one the street, of course it is okay to kill them in self-defense. But an unborn child is not intentionally trying to cause you harm. They are innocent. Harming the innocent to save oneself is wrong.

Perhaps some of you are right - perhaps since I can’t seem to get my opinions in exact line with the RCC’s views on this topic, perhaps I should just stop being Catholic and go with another denomination.

I hope you will study more into Catholicism before making that move. I’ve been studying the Catholic Church for a few years now, and one thing makes it different from the other churches: it has a strong argument for being the protector of truth… It has a strong argument that it is a good authority to listen to. In many other denominations, different modern individuals decide things. In the Catholic Church, a lot of the authoritative teachings have been issues discussed since ancient times. Many are teachings that have been defended against all sorts of opposing arguments throughout a two thousand year period… And they always came out on top.

So I hope you will not give up on it just yet.
And I know studying into it isn’t an easy process… There is so much information… And if you ask a lot of questions like I do, then you will have to sift through a lot of things. Sometimes the opponents will come out with convincing arguments that the Catholics are wrong… But don’t give up then: If you keep searching, I bet you will find a good Catholic response. I always end up finding one.
This website, forum, and also the Catholic encyclopedia (www.newadvent.org) are good sources to find the Catholic side of things.
I think the core issue is papal infallibility… It’s also one that you will probably find lots of nitpicky arguments against, and sometimes have a hard time finding the Catholic response (on some nitpicky historical issues especially… but they’re out there… Sometimes just need to dig very deep!). But believing that gives assurance that the Catholic Church’s teachings are safe from error.

I hope my post was of some help to you. I apologize if there was a lot of repeat information or anything.

You’re in my prayers,
Sapphire Dragon

 

[stthomas]

Maple -
Goodness, it must be really nice knowing that you’re right about everything everytime. You state an opinion and it must be nice to stand in judgement over all of us that are obviously not as giftted and enlightened as you are. I thought that this forum was here to try to understand or get answers - I guess you’re so enlightened that you have no more questions - I bet God will sure be glad to see you when you die, then you can instruct Him on the dogma of the Church and how no matter what, He shouldn’t consider anyone’s circumstances - just look at what was done and if it went against Church teaching. It’s because of people like you that I’ll we’ll most likely be taking the family to another Church.

Go back to my original question - then follow it through - I originally began this to try to understand - then when I was told over and over again - it’s wrong no matter what - and began feeling backed into a corner that’s when I began answering the questions - perhaps I shouldn’t have. All I seemed to get was " it’s wrong it’s wrong it’s wrong - " that wasn’t why I came on here to hear- I’ve already heard that opinion quite a bit - but I’ve also heard many different things from different priests, Bishops, Catholic articles -(even look at the one I found on here - quoted from it in my previous thread at the end) - I really was trying to understand it - I just can not understand why the Church would ever teach that it would rather have two people dead than one person live. Instead of having it explained to me, all I’ve gotten is “it’s wrong, no matter what, always wrong, there’s no case where it could ever not be wrong - accept it or you’re not really a Catholic…” I just honestly can’t believe that if Christ were here and able to talk to me about this face to face that he would say, yes I want both of you to die for some greater good. IMHO, having two die instead of just one is more a culture of death than saying that one can live but the other die.

• but thanks for helping lead the thread towards condmnation instead of understanding- it sucked that I had to go through that situation and I wish it had been different that I hadn’t gotten sick - I just can’t believe that Christ would say, I’m sorry, but you and your fetus are both going to have to die to prove a point -that’s not the God I’ve known as a God of love - say what you want, (and let’s face it, you obviously will) - you obviously have to have the last word in.

Rye, It seems evident to me that you are struggling with your decision to the point that it has consumed you and now you seem to want to justify your sin anyway you can. Priest, Bishops, and even the Pope can error, but the official teachings of the Church cannot and are very clear about abortion. As people of faith we cannot look at situations through human eyes, we must strive to understand God’s ways not ours. We all sin but the mercy of God is greater than any sin. Go now before him and ask his forgiveness and receive his graces…Your post cry out for peace and I pray that you receive that peace.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I don’t think she’s “struggling with her decision.” I think she’s struggling with the desire to believe in the humanity and compassion of the Church she loves and the faith she identifies with – and the unfortunate refusal of that same Church to acknowledge medical realities.

I feel beyond fortunate never to have been in any situation similar to that, ever. There but for the grace of God go I – and you, and you…

Unless you have a medical degree and have examined her chart in this particular case, no one here is in a position to determine that ryecroft would have lived given some other different medical decision at that time. Every day, in this country alone, dozens of life-and-death ‘best guesses’ are made in emergency rooms and operating rooms of hospitals by the attending surgeons. Many of those decisions were never predicted or predictable. Others are decisions based on solid experience (such as what has happened when a physician merely hopes for the best outcome against unsurmountable negative indicators).

When it comes to medicine, a moral theology which is so absolute that it never allows for that 1-2% of highly compromised pregnancies where two lives are in the balance, is a theology which is at odds with physical reality. God never asks us to be suicidal. I realize that some women choose certain or probable death over their own life, but as ryecroft has pointed out, such a decision bestows a different evil on any existing loved ones who are dependent on that mother (not just the unborn, but any born family members).

The bottom line is that the RCC refuses to acknowledge that there are ever equal “bads” or equal 'goods" in the operating room, that there is ever any gray area when one is dealing with unknowns. Whether any particular physician “lied,” was hasty, or misunderstood the danger involved to any particular mother is not an indication of the universe of medical judgments, nor even of ryecroft’s own situation at the time. Many of the posters here are operating on the false but comfortable belief that the mother will always survive, and that doctors always use scare tactics and always make decisions based on potential lawsuits. Although I’m not a doctor, apparently I know much more about medicine than most of the posters on this thread.

 

[stthomas]

I don’t think she’s “struggling with her decision.” I think she’s struggling with the desire to believe in the humanity and compassion of the Church she loves and the faith she identifies with – and the unfortunate refusal of that same Church to acknowledge medical realities.

I feel beyond fortunate never to have been in any situation similar to that, ever. There but for the grace of God go I – and you, and you…

Unless you have a medical degree and have examined her chart in this particular case, no one here is in a position to determine that ryecroft would have lived given some other different medical decision at that time. Every day, in this country alone, dozens of life-and-death ‘best guesses’ are made in emergency rooms and operating rooms of hospitals by the attending surgeons. Many of those decisions were never predicted or predictable. Others are decisions based on solid experience (such as what has happened when a physician merely hopes for the best outcome against unsurmountable negative indicators).

When it comes to medicine, a moral theology which is so absolute that it never allows for that 1-2% of highly compromised pregnancies where two lives are in the balance, is a theology which is at odds with physical reality. God never asks us to be suicidal. I realize that some women choose certain or probable death over their own life, but as ryecroft has pointed out, such a decision bestows a different evil on any existing loved ones who are dependent on that mother (not just the unborn, but any born family members).

The bottom line is that the RCC refuses to acknowledge that there are ever equal “bads” or equal 'goods" in the operating room, that there is ever any gray area when one is dealing with unknowns. Whether any particular physician “lied,” was hasty, or misunderstood the danger involved to any particular mother is not an indication of the universe of medical judgments, nor even of ryecroft’s own situation at the time. Many of the posters here are operating on the false but comfortable belief that the mother will always survive, and that doctors always use scare tactics and always make decisions based on potential lawsuits. Although I’m not a doctor, apparently I know much more about medicine than most of the posters on this thread.

Obviously Elizabeth you dont believe the teachings of the Church are infallible or you would not have posted this… God doesnt value one life over another, both were his creation and no one has a right to make the decision to end one life over another. I am not saying that this is an easy decision for anyone to make, but if you are Catholic you put your trust in the love of God and he always comes thru…we might find the outcome hard to understand but we need to keep in mind that we are not of this world…We exist because of God’s love and he alone can decide when it is our time to come home. Going against Church teaching is going against God’s law, dont encourage people to commit sin that will endanger their salvation. God knows what suffering is…remember the Cross?